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In attempt to the solve the ongoing problem of placing a work in the proper period ~



One nice thing is that you can select the main period above, then find a link to the chronological chart of major & minor works, but I'm hoping to find a sliding left to right version with equal detail. Have you seen anything?




Plus, this is only British literature, so we probably need something more comprehensive. I'm curious to see what was written in America and France at the same time as such-n-such was written in Britain.

Which leads me to another question~
I don't know if anyone else does this, but it's a source of ongoing annoyance to me. For instance, according to Jenny Uglow's Elizabeth Gaskell, Elizabeth was on the scene when George Eliot started publishing her earlier novels, and she was a big fan of her work, seeing huge promise in her as a new author. Gaskell died before Middlemarch was published, however, so she never got to read what could be argued her masterpiece, and I kept wondering what impact that would have had on Gaskell as a writer. So, basically, I had to sniff out all the dates of each author's works and compare that side to side to when they were born and the events of their lives, and it makes me wonder, isn't there an easier way to go about this, to cross reference author's? That's what I'm looking for in a timeline and probably won't find. Where do you go to see how the authors overlap? You can collect notes as you read, I suppose (and do), but it's so time consuming. I almost 'know' what I want/need, but not sure what it's called.

And if you can answer that one, I'll be very pleased indeed!



Here's a pic of J. Uglow's book. � It was so good, if you're a Gaskell fan.

What a neat document Cher. I just skimmed through it but was immediately grabbed by the information regarding the maximum number of hours children were allowed to work in factories. More than most adults work now in a business day. Yikes.

Oh, you're noticing all my editing then :)

You found that in the Texts and Contexts: A Chronological Chart link?

I get lost in things like that too. That's when you know you're hooked on an era.

Your editing? Hmmm, you've lost me!

Yes, okay, you've just added to your post- LOL!
I was referring to the chart from your first post.
I found it very interesting, thank you for adding the link. :-)

I'm starting to feel like the plague here.

I guess we here could try to come up with our own that's cross-tracked like that - I've never seen one.

I've seen a chronology that did the same "things happening in different places at the same time," but it wasn't about Victorian lit, alas (It's at the back of my Latin text - things happening in Rome, verses those happening in Britain and Egypt, at the same time. Very interesting.).

ooo, i bet that would be interesting. Perhaps it doesn't exist yet. Alas!

Well, I used to do chronologies as a hobby - I could see what I could come up with. Might take a while, though!

LOL! As if you don't already have a life to live! No, only do that if you're interested in the outcome. I could spend my life constructing one for pleasure, but then I'd lose my notes half way through anyway and croak before I completed it.

I'm thinking there must be a lit textbook out there some place that has it.

Cher - I really liked that chart - I'd forgotten about the children's greats from the era. I studied Vic poetry some time ago and browsing the list brought back memories. then there is the context of the ideas that were exploding during the era, Utilitarianism, womens rights ... amazing isn't it!

Well, here's what I came up with for 1837:

Britain
William IV dies, and his niece, Victoria, 18, succeeds him; she avoids a regency government by about three weeks. She does not inherit Hanover, where there are salic inheritance laws; her uncle, the Duke of Cumberland, becomes King of Hanover. (June 20)
Economic depression.
Opening of Euston Station. (July)
Charles Wheatstone and William Fothergill Cooke patent an electric telegraph.
Isaac Pitman introduces the first "scientific" shorthand system.
The French Revolution A History, Thomas Carlyle
The Pickwick Papers, Charles Dickens
Society in America, Harriet Martineau
Benjamin Disraeli gives his maiden speech to the House of Commons.
Death of Mrs. Fitzherbert, the morganatic wife of George IV.
Birth of Algernon Charles Swinburne.

America
Martin van Buren inaugurated. (March 20)
Michigan becomes the 26th state.
The U.S. recognizes the Republic of Texas. (March 3)
The number of Supreme Court justices is increased from seven to nine.
Capture of Osceola, chief of the Seminole. (October)
Congress introduces the "gag law" to prevent debate on slavery.
Bubble in property values bursts.
618 banks fail.
Congress authorizes printing of $10 million in paper money. (October)
Only one textile mill in New England remains open.
Samuel F. B. Morse gives a public demonstration of his electric telegraph and of Morse Code, and wins a U.S. patent on it. (September)
"The American Scholar," Ralph Waldo Emerson (Phi Beta Kappa address at Harvard)
Twice-Told Tales, Nathaniel Hawthorne
"Concord Hymn," Ralph Waldo Emerson
Founding of Proctor and Gamble, Cincinnati, by a candle-maker and his brother-in-law, a soap-maker.
Opening of Tiffany's. (September)
John Deere invents an improved steel plow - "the plow that broke the prairies."
Birth of William Dean Howells.

The World
Economic depression.
Rebellion in French-speaking Canada.
Opening of the first kindergarten, in Thuringia.
Le Curé de village, Honore de Balzac
Death of Alexander Pushkin. (January)
First railroad in Canada.

Is this what people are interested in?

Wow, thanks for doing this Susanna - you're a superstar.

So they were in the middle of depression back then too?

What the heck? You're REALLY doing it? Oh no, this means I have to find a really long piece of paper and tape it to my hallway wall, doesn't it? :) Well, you're amazing, that's for sure.

I have to warn you though, I have the Timetables of History book (which is incomplete in the literature realm and I have to fill in sections for them), but it gives a pretty good cross reference of historical events. I noticed that Modern Library hardcovers have a nice little chronology in the front that compares the events and works in the author's life to other major works being composed in the vicinity, so you can see a little how different author's lives line up and overlap. Yummy reading for literature bloodhounds, but again it's limited.

I think you might have your own book in the making there Susanna. Wanna come write in on my wall? :D

Cathy wrote: "Cher - I really liked that chart - I'd forgotten about the children's greats from the era. I studied Vic poetry some time ago and browsing the list brought back memories. then there is the context ..."

â–� Cathy :) It sounds like you're coming away from where I want to end up eventually (poetry). I have a huge collection of poetry, which I'm saving for old age. Supposedly, I'll be able to sit in a rocking chair and ponder better then (this is my story, and I'm sticking to it). I have to admit though, I do sneak some Aurora Leigh now and then, and I find myself reciting some Emily Dickenson aloud when no one is within ear range. These moments sprout out like grey hairs.

So, within this hotbed of ideas during the Victorian age (and before & beyond), I'm most excited by the religious convolutions- all these small groups breaking off from the Anglican church, changing direction on a dime, new ideas and perspectives infiltrating the novel. Oooo baby. Love love love it.

Morality and religiosity seem to be the backdrop of Victorian literature. Or even morality in place of religiosity, as in the case of George Eliot. People were really wrestling with ideas.

They were in the middle of a very nasty depression in the late 1830s, yup.

I've got Nineteenth Century and After (the relevant volume of the Literary History of Britain), but haven't gone through it for this yet.

I cannot recommend Victorian People and Ideas A Companion for the Modern Reader of Victorian Literature more, by the way. My parents were assigned it in English grad school when they were taking Victorian lit, and I was assigned it in history grad school! (Along with, I think, Mary Barton and The Perpetual Curate.)

It just so happens I'm reading that right now. I love the tone of it. It's personable, isn't it?

Yes, it's personable, as you say, and both very readable and interesting.

I also found Inside the Victorian Home A Portrait of Domestic Life in Victorian England fascinating.

LOL! That's another one I have sitting here. I have it sitting on the arm of my big stuffed reading chair (I think the cats are perusing it behind my back). It does look delish.

I haven't seen that one. I'll add it to my list. Thanks Karen.

This should probably go somewhere else, like an Gaskell thread, but here's a website I like for everything Gaskell:



The Cranford walk through Knutsford is neat.

Oh my! All these websites; I'm frothing at the mouth!

I so need to read some Gaskell; I have just been drooling over that page and I haven't even read any of her books yet (although I am dying to very soon).

I also like .

Oh yes, that one is a lot of fun. We need a links thread! Boof is drooling on my timeline :P...

Try Cranford and see whatchathink Boof. It's quick and funny.

I guess this is as good a place to put my question as any as it seems related to victorian literature within specific time periods.

I have been wondering for awhile as to how much influence the Victorian way of being and writing influenced other countries. For instance, did France have literature in that period that resembled victorian literature or was influenced by it. What about Italy? etc. Was there a time that 'Victorian' ceased to be just British and impregnated other societies?

That's a really interesting question Scott, but not one I know the answer to I'm afraid. I have read some C19th French literature but not as much as I would like to have (although I have quite a few on my shelves). I always think of the French lit of this era as being quite dark, but this could just be the ones I have read - very much about the seedier side of Paris usually; but then alot of British Vic lit is about the seedier side of London.

That hasn't answered your question at all has it? (lol). Maybe Gabrielle may be able to shed some light as I think she studied French lit in Paris (or have I dreamt that?)

Boof wrote: "That's a really interesting question Scott, but not one I know the answer to I'm afraid. I have read some C19th French literature but not as much as I would like to have (although I have quite a fe..."

In some sense this question has blossomed from reading and seeing how the Victorian period influenced other areas of life outside its boundaries such has architecture, fashion, invention, and medicine. I look at North America and you still see the Victorian style home and gingerbread houses dotting sections of the States and Canada. I guess I am curious as to how literature of that particular place, period and style influenced say France, Italy, or other countries. A friend of mine mentioned that French literature was much more liberal and open about sex within writing. I haven’t read enough to know the differences yet, but I am curious about the influence or similarities.

I would say, from the ones I have read, that the French were much more liberal in their literature than the Brits. I think the Brits are still remowned for their stiff-upper-lip, stuffed-shirtness and certainly I can't think of any sexually liberated victorian novels (but then I haven't read anywhere near all of them yet). I have only read Zola and de Maupassant and imo they were darker and not so prudish.

Re the above, I wonder if it's a cultural thing. I still don't like gratuitous sex in novels whatever time period they were written in. I love a good romance/love story but loathe sex for the sake of putting it in. Maybe it's a Brit thing? Or am I just a prude? �

Boof wrote: "I would say, from the ones I have read, that the French were much more liberal in their literature than the Brits. I think the Brits are still remowned for their stiff-upper-lip, stuffed-shirtness ..."

But aside from sexual aspects what about things like the fairy element, mythology or spiritist views within literature, etc. Did the French carry this into their work as well. I think the only thing I have read much of that’s French literature is Alexandre Dumas and the Comte de Lautréamont (Isidore Ducasse).

I guess I can eventually do a comparison and read some more French literature of the same period to have a better idea.

Boof wrote: "Re the above, I wonder if it's a cultural thing. I still don't like gratuitous sex in novels whatever time period they were written in. I love a good romance/love story but loathe sex for the sake ..."

:-) Are French novels of that time period really that way? Or is it more a dark, brooding, & gritty atmosphere?

How could I have forgotten about Dumas? OMG, I love The Count of Monte Cristo and I completely forgot about it until you mentioned it then. To be honest, I found that book different from Zola and de Maupassant.

The only Zola I have read is Therese Raquin which I did find dark and gritty but I still loved it - I felt completely "there" in the book in the same way I did when I read Suskund's Perfume: The Story of a Murderer . It had a sort of claustrophobic feel to it (if you have read Perfume that may make more sense).

"No Sex, Please, We're British."

Scott wrote: "I guess this is as good a place to put my question as any as it seems related to victorian literature within specific time periods.

I have been wondering for awhile as to how much influence the..."

Tolstoy was very fond of Victorian English novels. He has Anna Karenina on the train "reading an English novel." Some think that Anna was reading a novel by Anthony Trollope, whose works Tolstoy knew well.

Boof wrote: "Re the above, I wonder if it's a cultural thing. I still don't like gratuitous sex in novels whatever time period they were written in. I love a good romance/love story but loathe sex for the sake ..."

Let's be prudes together.

Scott, are you asking specifically about British influence on European countries?

To answer your last question, yes, the concept of "Victorian" definitely carried over into other countries. Most prominently into the US, where although there were clear differences, many upper middle class Americans mimicked what they thought were British Victorian cultural norms. That old story about hiding table legs with long tablecloths, for example, not from the UK. So maybe the saying should go, "No sex (or legs) please, we're American." ;)

I'd say that Edith Wharton is a great example of American Victorian literature, even though she published her most famous novels after Victoria's death. And Dickens was, by far, America's most popular author. Even more so, I'm afraid, than our homegrown greats, like Twain, Hawthorne, and Melville.

As for France--I have no idea about the influence of Victorian literature on French literature. My guess is that while British writers were more likely to want to mimic French realists (rather than the other way around), the Victorian publishing market made this difficult.Victorian publishers were in general very, very wary of emulating French novelists, particularly Balzac and Zola. This was largely because the term "French novel" was essentially shorthand for both pornography (much of which was produced in France and imported into England) and for sexually explicit narratives. A lot of Victorian novels were serialized in family magazines and so the stories had to be "clean" enough for the entire family to read and enjoy. In fact, the single largest purchaser of volume edition novels in Great Britain was Mudie's Library, and the owner, Mudie, prided himself on buying stock that was family friendly. This meant that any novelist interested in publishing a book that didn't meet Mudie's moral standards (Thomas Hardy, we're looking at you!!) was either a.) going to self-censor or b.) starve.

For a really great example of British attitudes towards French literature, check out Augustus Egg's , which depicts the moment a husband discovers his wife's infidelity. It is really hard to see, but the two girls are building their falling card-house on a book, the spine of which reads "Balzac."

Darcy wrote: "Scott, are you asking specifically about British influence on European countries?

To answer your last question, yes, the concept of "Victorian" definitely carried over into other countries. Most ..."

I most certainly do not want to argue with Darcy on this point; but I would not include Edith Wharton's writing in the style of the Victorians. Yes, even though The Touchstone and even The House of Mirth are on the cusp of late-Victoriana timewise, I maintain that her naturalism and realistic writing style, and use of dramatic irony, clearly moves her to something beyond. She is more a beckoning beacon to the American version of the Edwardian. This is just my opinion though.

Off the top of my head, examples of American Victorian Era authors might include: Whitman, Melville, Dickinson, Henry James, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Emerson, Thoreau, and Mark Twain. Sure there's overlap, timewise, but the truly distinguishing characteristic is writing style.

lol--no worries, Chris, I'm perfectly happy to disagree about it ;) I do agree with you that Wharton thematically pushes realism to a point that would have made many Victorians squirm a bit. That said, while a novel like The Age of Innocence is well past the death of Victoria and deals more explicitly with sex than that queen would have liked to see in a book, I think there's a huge difference between Wharton's prose and, say, that of Virginia Woolf, who was her contemporary. Wharton's novels, it seems to me, are very elegiac of the Victorian golden era in America--Innocence especially seems to mourn the passing of a culture of aristocracy, even as it is critical of that culture. Anyway, for some reason, she's always struck me as a cross between Trollope and Tolstoy, which is perhaps why I think of her as being more Victorian than Edwardian.

Darcy wrote: "lol--no worries, Chris, I'm perfectly happy to disagree about it ;) I do agree with you that Wharton thematically pushes realism to a point that would have made many Victorians squirm a bit. That s..."

Darcy, I completely agree that Wharton was enormously different from Virginia Woolf, but then every author was different from Woolf; and that is precisely what makes Virginia Woolf so utterly remarkable (her writing style was singularly her own). I do view Willa Cather as Wharton's contemporary; and that they are quite alike in style.

I also completely agree with you that Wharton wrote much about American society and its strictures and restraints in the latter part of the 19th century; but it was, in my opinion, the way that she wrote about it that takes her out of the category of 'Victorian' author.

Finally, Edith Wharton, more so than many authors is quite remarkable in just how much her style of writing changed over the course of her literary career. I have read most, if not all, of her short stories, and all of her novels; and it is just amazing how different, for example, The House of Mirth (1905) is from The Glimpses of the Moon (1922), or The Mother's Recompense (1925), or her final uncompleted novel The Buccaneers (1938). Anyway, a fascinating topic! Have a great day, Darcy! Cheers! Chris

Darcy wrote: "Scott, are you asking specifically about British influence on European countries?

To answer your last question, yes, the concept of "Victorian" definitely carried over into other countries. Most ..."

Yes, I guess I am asking about British literary and cultural influence on other countries. American I can see how and why it would be influenced. Europe I am interested and no less about with regards to how Britain influenced within arts and culture. France was close by, so was curious. Also Germany and Italy. It seems though, at least from what you are saying, that France had a distinct difference in how they wrote. They were more into realism? Though in reading Maldoror that is completely not realist at all and its in the same period. What about Italy? Was there an influence there? or rather the other way around? I think it plagues me as i just wonder in those times how they viewed other authors outside the country,etc. For the most part, you answered that question though. There was a screening out of certain things in literature for more family style reading. Is there ever a case where that is not correct? I mean, were there any more obscure authors who still tried to push the limits of going beyond the family criteria of reading? I would assume Wuthering Heights pushes some limits, maybe not in all areas.

Thanks for all the info though! It really gives me a clearer picture in general and pinpoints what I can look into further.

Ah, sorry, my fault about the confusion. No, I don't want to give the impression that French authors were more interested in realism than British authors. Just that some French authors were regarded in Britain as producing novels that caused many British writers to redefine the idea of realist literature (especially in terms of how novels could discuss or deal with issues like female sexuality or male and female relationships). But certainly not all French authors wrote this way.

I don't know about Italy and Germany. Maybe other people here are familiar with C19 Italian and German lit?

And yes, lots of British authors tried to push the envelope on how sexually explicit they could make their novels. The sensationalists were really interested in these issues (novels like Lady Audley's Secret, for example, or East Lynne). Other examples might be Becky from Vanity Fair, or some of Hardy's women (specifically Tess and Sue). Later in the century, from the 70s/80s onwards, publishing wasn't as dependent on magazines and the circulating libraries and the novel opened up considerably.

I have no idea about Wuthering Heights. As you say, it seems like it would be a pretty controversial novel. There are a lot of people in this group that know tons about the Brontes, though--does anyone know if WH was criticized when it first appeared?

Chris, I don't think you and I actually disagree too much on this. I was talking more about Wharton's thematic concerns rather than her prose style. Certainly Wharton wrote a wide-range of novels--Ethan Frome, for example, is a far cry from The Age of Innocence. But there's no question that Wharton was extremely interested in America's "Victorian" period. Innocence and The Buccaneers for example, are both set in the 1870s/80s. And Mirth, I think, is at the very least right on the cusp (does anyone know the exact dates of when that novel takes place? 1900?). The Buccaneers, at any rate, is a great example of British cultural influence, with the girls finding husbands in England rather than in the US. Given that Wharton wasn't Victorian, maybe we should add her to our neo-Victorian list ;)

Anyway, Scott, I think it's a really interesting topic. Makes me wish I knew more European lit. I'll have to add Maldoror to my list.

Darcy wrote: "Chris, I don't think you and I actually disagree too much on this. I was talking more about Wharton's thematic concerns rather than her prose style. Certainly Wharton wrote a wide-range of novels--..."

Darcy, I think you are exactly right, i.e., that we don't "actually disagree." Edith Wharton is pretty much my all-time favorite American author; and I have made a point of attending the biennial Wharton conference. Last year it was held in Pittsfield, Massachusetts, and we were able to spend a lovely day visiting her gorgeous home, The Mount, in Lenox. I also was able to spend a wonderful afternoon at Melville's house, "Arrowhead," where he wrote Moby Dick.

Darcy, great idea about adding Wharton to the neo list! That means we get to read some more of her.

Darcy and Scott, I'm not sure whether WH was controversail or not but I do know that Charlotte hated Anne's The Tennant of Wildfell Hall which I can certainly see was ahead of its times with regards to the lead female, Helen. I think she tried to either get rid of the manuscript or stop it being published.

Darcy wrote: "Ah, sorry, my fault about the confusion. No, I don't want to give the impression that French authors were more interested in realism than British authors. Just that some French authors were regarde..."

I was looking into
Maldoror and the Complete Works of the Comte de Lautréamont a bit more to see if anything is said on its influences. Even though i realise this is very obscure sort of poetic novel. In the sources I found they mention that Isidore Ducasse was inspired by popular gothic literature of the period, in particular Lord Byron's Manfred, Charles Robert Maturin's Melmoth the Wanderer and Goethe's Faust. So for a french more obscure writer of the period of 1860's he was influenced by British and German lit. I guess i should look to a more known source to see what other crosses there could be.

What other things besides sexually explicit narratives were excluded as much as possible from Victorian publishing markets? I guess something like Daniel Deronda by Eliot would have been controversial do to its jewish elements. But it still seems to have been published.

I would guess Penny Dreadful publications were quite strange for the Brits of the time?

Darcy wrote: "Scott, are you asking specifically about British influence on European countries?

To answer your last question, yes, the concept of "Victorian" definitely carried over into other countries. Most ..."

I will take a look at the link you gave to read more on it. Thanks. I guess, from what is said by you and Christopher, that it is really the Americans who claimed the greater influence from Victorian literature. What about other colonies like India?

Chris, what a great experience! I hope the house had a widow's walk ;)

Scott, I've been thinking about your question all day. This would be my list of topics that either a.) were largely avoided or b.) were not made the primary subject of many novels (although they might appear as incidents within a larger plot). Some of these things definitely start showing up at the end of the century, but not so much from 1830 to say 1875.

1. Child abuse (specifically pedophilia, but also child abuse more broadly. Victorians didn't always define child abuse the same way we might today, although this changed throughout the century. There are plenty of abandoned, neglected, and often beaten children in Victorian lit., but that typically occurs among lower-class children, or children mistaken for lower class). Physical abuse as abuse of middle-class children by their parents or relatives is largely invisible).
2. Domestic abuse (particularly violent) towards wives [completely unmentioned, that I can think of, is domestic violence--physical rather than psychological--towards husbands, although I'm sure Dickens has an example or two.:]
3. Abortion--if mentioned, only in an extremely indirect way. (Also, pregnancy or miscarriages).
4. Drug addiction within the middle-classes (except, perhaps, alcohol--no wonder Tenant was so controversial)
5. Rape
6. Homosexuality (again, usually only in the most indirect way).
7. War
8. Birth control
9. Servants (they figure largely as supporting characters, but rarely are servant plots the main story).
10. Divorce

I'm sure I'm missing quite a few--I'd love to hear what other people think, because it seems like a really question. A few caveats--I'm not saying these topics were never discussed, but they were rarely made the focus of an entire novel in the way that, say, Dickens make prison conditions the focus of Little Dorrit. If anyone knows of any novels that deal explicitly with any of these topics, I'd love to find out about them. The war topic, especially, since I can't think of any Victorian novels that take place in a war zone (except for the brief bits in Vanity Fair). Any Crimean novels, for instance? Or ones about the Boer War?

Darcy wrote: "Chris, what a great experience! I hope the house had a widow's walk ;)

Scott, I've been thinking about your question all day. This would be my list of topics that either a.) were largely avoided o..."

Darcy, first, while The Mount doesn't really have a widow's walk per se, it does have a gorgeous balcony/patio that runs the length of the back of the house. In fact, I ate a beautiful lunch out there, and had my photograph taken at precisely the same spot that Wharton and Henry James were photographed standing together. Way cool!

Second, regarding your list of 'taboo' subjects; most of 'em have been addressed by one Victorian author or the other; and in some novels were pretty major plot themes. Off the top of my head; Hardy wrote about rape, domestic abuse, addiction, and pregnancy out-of-wedlock (e.g., Tess, and Far From the Madding Crowd). Collins wrote about domestic violence and addiction (e.g., The Woman In White, The Moonstone, and No Name). Dickens wrote about domestic violence and addiction (a bunch of 'em). Both, Anne and Emily Bronte touched, rather explicitly, on several of these themes too. Finally, I think you can find clear examples of these 'taboo' subjects in much of the Victorian Era poetry. Frankly, the two subjects that are probably the most difficult to ferret out of Victorian literature would be associated with the servant-classes and any on-going wars/conflicts (Yes, Tennyson did write about the Crimean War in The Charge of the Light Brigade). Like I said, this is just off of the top of my head. Cheers! Chris

R.D. Blackmore wrote about war in Lorna Doone but interestingly, although it was written in victorian times he set his book 200 years earlier during the Monmouth rebellion. Also, although not actually war, both C.Bronte (in Shirley ) and Elizabeth Gaskell have written about clashes (maybe more civil strife than war though).

The examples I can think of for abortion (Whartons Summer ) and divorce (James' What Maisie Knew ) are both Amnerican so perhaps it was a little less taboo over there? Or was that still considered shocking?