The Pickwick Club discussion
The Old Curiosity Shop
>
TOCS Chapters 8-14
date
newest »
newest »
So far, Dickens seems to be following the same pattern as I noted in NN of one-sided characters, either all good or all bad as far as we can tell so far, with one exception. Grandfather Trent (did we ever learn his first name? If so, I missed it) seems a bit more complex. He obviously loves Nelly, though whether he loves her in the ways that are best for her I'm not sure. But he also is a gambler who has gone deep in debt and lost basically everything he worked for. That's not exactly bad on the level of a Quilp or Uncle Ralph, but it's not pure good either. So he is a bit of a mixed bag. But other than that, we're again faced with all-loving and sweet Nell, all wicked and evil (and glorying in it) Quilp, all good Ned and his mother, all nasty Dick Swiveller, and Fred, who hasn't declared his full badness yet but certainly doesn't seem to have any good about him that I can see. Several other characters haven't yet declared themselves in enough detail for me to judge about them -- particularly Quilp's boy, Quilp's wife (though I see no wickedness in her, I don't see enough good yet to declare her all good), and lawyer Brass, who is presumed to be all evil since no good lawyer would enslave himself to Quilp, but who hasn't fully shown his colors to me yet. But certainly we have seen no complexity in any of these figures yet.
So except for Grandfather Trent, we're again in that moral black-and-white sphere. Which will make at least one of the crazies happy, but maybe not the other.
We had talked about the illustrations. I was quite disappointed with the way the illustrations in this set of chapters portrayed Kit. If your book doesn't have them, here they are (click on an image to enlarge it). (If you look at illustrations past where we have reached in the book you may encounter spoilers -- be warned!) In Kit at Home, Mr. Swiveller's Pugilistic Skill, and Kit Makes an Appointment, Kit seems to me to be portrayed as almost ugly, deformed, not that much better looking than Quilp. This isn't how I had portrayed Kit in my mind; I had seen him more as an upstanding youth, slim, not handsome perhaps but with an honest, open countenance. More like I imagine Nicholas to have been.
true that!! the bad guys are on top. I am picturing quills wife having a good time with Q away! she can catch up non sleep anyway. grandpop needs to go to heaven. he is gumming up the works. sorry to say.
the garlands are a motley crew but sweet. or they appear to be. I don't trust the son his actions seem contrived. they do have my interest ,and saved me from bordom. they came out of nowhere. no obvious connection yet. that I see.
again. dick. I wish I had left the shop with him and had a few drinks at the pub instead of getting through those bleak chapters.
Everyman wrote: "So far, Dickens seems to be following the same pattern as I noted in NN of one-sided characters, either all good or all bad as far as we can tell so far, with one exception. Grandfather Trent (did..."No, Grandfather never gets a name. Which is kind of strange, it seems like it would have been easy enough just to give him a name.
I just love the way the characters seem to be either all good or all bad. It makes it so much simpler to like or dislike them this way, and it reminds me of an earlier book we read. I wonder how the crazy people will feel about it? :-}
Everyman wrote: "We had talked about the illustrations. I was quite disappointed with the way the illustrations in this set of chapters portrayed Kit. If your book doesn't have them, here they are (click on an im..."Kit looks like Kit to me, but only because I've read the book so often and I'm used to him. What always strikes me so much about the illustrations in TOCS is that there were different illustrators, he used four different illustrators for some reason, and I think the illustrations look a lot different.
For example, the only one I can give at this point, in the first chapter the illustration shows Nell lying in bed, that was done by a different artist than in Chapter two where Dick and Fred are with Grandfather Trent. To me they look quite different.
I agree with the input on illustrations. I picture kit like tommy tune or a young Elvis. awkward corn fed youth. but you know he'll be handsome. quilp. well canny devito all the way.
and well, dick I do picture different. NOT like a daulton mug as in the picture of the pugilist. that is him isn't it. there are other pics of him where he looks younger . i picture him more like Aaron Paul or Jonathan Rhys Meyers or Axel rose.
Mrs Q sits around with her friends treating them to lobster. No kids. No job. She's got her game on too. She did not seem to be too traumatize by the night up. Annoyed mostly. Maybe she is a night owl. They are married. Maybe they got busy too. Sid and Nancy?.I like her. She knows what she's doing. I could not get past the looks but is she in sane or me shallow?
In the Chapters 1-7 thread, Christine wrote: "Dick is not taking this Nell thing seriously. He is humoring a friend. He thinks Nell is a little kid. Besides he wants Sophie wackles. "But now we see that it's more than humoring, and he wants to dump Sophie in favor of Nell's money. Now do you feel any differently?
A little. But not about his moral character though. She's just not right for him. And vise versa. He can still park his shoes under my bed tonite. I know dickens wrote political figures into his works. Satirically like Seth macfarlane does on family guy. Are there any in this work so far? Like those garlands. The seem a parody.
Mrs Q sits around with her friends treating them to lobster. No kids. No job. She's got her game on too. She did not seem to be too traumatize by the night up. Annoyed mostly. Maybe she is a night owl. They are married. Maybe they got busy too. Sid and Nancy?.I like her. She knows what she's doing. I could not get past the looks but is she in sane or me shallow?
Dickens had problematic relationships with women. It seems that after his father's release from imprisonment for bankruptcy his mother hesitated to bring Dickens home from a truly dreadful job as a child laborer in a boot black bottling factory, something for which he never forgave her.After his marriage to Catherine Hogarth, it is almost certain that Dickens formed an attachment to two of her sisters who joined their household to help out with their (ten!!!!) children.
As time went on and his fame grew, he frequented prostitutes and eventually began an affair with actress Ellen Tiernan which he maintained until his death. He eventually forced his wife to leave their home with only one adult son. The minor children were from then on denied contact with their mother.
So here we have Mrs Quilp and her mum Mrs. Genowyn They demonstrate to me the paradox that women wives and mothers presented Dickens. Old Mrs. Genowyn(sp im listening to audiobook) sees what Quilp is and encourages her daughter to bring him to hand but is still complicit in his marriage to her daughter and in fact she is sensibly terrified of him herself.
I think Dickens wisely removed himself as mysterious narrator after Chapter 3 because even then he was likely in pursuit of intimate relationships with teenage females: his wife's two sisters and a young woman he met and to whom he made awkward advances while writing "The Old Curiosity Shop." I suspect that his first person narrator was a little too close to home for his own mental comfort, if not for the public that even then hung on his every word and deed.
The link below is just one of many fascinating Dickens pages at Spartacus
Creepy Quilp child molestor moment of Chapter 9:Nell looked at the old man, who nodded to her to retire, and kissed her cheek.
'Ah!' said the dwarf, smacking his lips, 'what a nice kiss that was-- just upon the rosy part. What a capital kiss!'
Nell was none the slower in going away, for this remark. Quilp looked after her with an admiring leer, and when she had closed the door, fell to complimenting the old man upon her charms.
'Such a fresh, blooming, modest little bud, neighbour,' said Quilp, nursing his short leg, and making his eyes twinkle very much; 'such a chubby, rosy, cosy, little Nell!'
The old man answered by a forced smile, and was plainly struggling with a feeling of the keenest and most exquisite impatience. It was not lost upon Quilp, who delighted in torturing him, or indeed anybody else, when he could.
'She's so,' said Quilp, speaking very slowly, and feigning to be quite absorbed in the subject, 'so small, so compact, so beautifully modelled, so fair, with such blue veins and such a transparent skin, and such little feet, and such winning ways
Chapter 9 and now we're back into the depressing parts of the novel. So far Nell and anyone related to her in any way are having a hard time of it.Grandfather is annoying. His big plan to get rich, to have money for Nell so that she'll never have to worry is to go gambling every night? That's a plan? That's why he's spent all their money and borrowed more? He sounds like my sister. She's always filled with plans of all the things she's going to do someday when she wins the jackpot of the Pennsylvania lottery. I am unfortunately in agreement with what Quilp says to Grandfather Trent here:
'To the gaming-table,' rejoined Quilp, 'your nightly haunt. This was the precious scheme to make your fortune, was it; this was the secret certain source of wealth in which I was to have sunk my money (if I had been the fool you took me for); this was your inexhaustible mine of gold, your El Dorado, eh?'
'Yes,' cried the old man, turning upon him with gleaming eyes, 'it was. It is. It will be, till I die.'
'That I should have been blinded,' said Quilp looking contemptuously at him, 'by a mere shallow gambler!'
Everyman: Concerning the illustrations, I agree that Kit is portrayed as a rather unappealing character. We know that Dickens was a difficult taskmaster with his illustrators, and that Dickens signed off on most of the plates before they were included with each specific plate. If we believe the pressures and demands that Dickens placed on his illustrators (the suicide death of Seymour will always be fodder for scholarly debate) then Kit's image remains a puzzle to me too.I also enjoy Dickens' use of the one-sided flat characters. Freed from the constraints of being subtle, Dickens certainly let his imagination and creativity fly.
Kim: Quilp continues to be so creepy. I admit, however, that I find him as fascinating as I find him repulsive. He is a character that I don't want to like, that I do want to see get his just desserts, but he lures me on. I'm trying to figure out why and can only come to the conclusion that Dickens gives Quilp's character an edge of twisted, grotesque humour. We know enough of Quilp, even at this early part of the novel, not to like him, yet his presence in the novel, while casting deep, dark, ugly shadows, also is tinged with grim sly spots of fascination with his character.
Peter wrote: "...Freed from the constraints of being subtle..."LOL!
Peter wrote: "Kim: Quilp continues to be so creepy. I admit, however, that I find him as fascinating as I find him repulsive...."Evil/wickedness is almost always more interesting than good. Not merely in fiction: look at what fills the newspapers and TV. Of course, most of us claim to want to see good overcome evil in the end. But without evil, good is mostly boring.
Ah good old Dick, what would I do without him? Just when I am getting overly disgusted with Quilp here comes Dick in Chapter 13:So far, however, from rushing upon somebody who offered no resistance and implored his mercy, Mr Quilp was no sooner in the arms of the individual whom he had taken for his wife than he found himself complimented with two staggering blows on the head, and two more, of the same quality, in the chest; and closing with his assailant, such a shower of buffets rained down upon his person as sufficed to convince him that he was in skilful and experienced hands. Nothing daunted by this reception, he clung tight to his opponent, and bit and hammered away with such good-will and heartiness, that it was at least a couple of minutes before he was dislodged. Then, and not until then, Daniel Quilp found himself, all flushed and dishevelled, in the middle of the street, with Mr Richard Swiveller performing a kind of dance round him and requiring to know 'whether he wanted any more?'
It makes me feel better just re-reading it.
Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "Kim: Quilp continues to be so creepy. I admit, however, that I find him as fascinating as I find him repulsive...."Evil/wickedness is almost always more interesting than good. N..."
Yes, evil offers so much more potential. Dostoyevsky, when writing The Idiot, commented on the difficulty of creating Prince Myshkin and said that there were only three entirely good characters in literature: Don Quixote, Mr. Pickwick and Jesus.
Peter wrote: "Dostoyevsky, when writing The Idiot, commented on the difficulty of creating Prince Myshkin and said that there were only three entirely good characters in literature: Don Quixote, Mr. Pickwick and Jesus."Oh great, now I'm going to spend the rest of the day trying to think of entirely good characters in literature.:-}
I'm still not seeing the flat characters... are we talking about Nell? What would have to be included in her characterization to make her fully realized? One of Dickens regular themes is the damage done to children by foolish parents and grandparents. Another is that financial security gained at the expense of one's morality is meaningless and usually only forestalls a terrible but inevitable fate. Dickens characters always constantly struggle with this paradox. Is it possible to live a moral lfe and manage to keep safe and well?Dickens has put Nell in a real predicament. Nell is well aware that she is the object of desire. Of course she runs away because she understands Quilp's intentions. She also knows that her brother will do nothing for her (confirmed just recently in my reading by Trent's joining leagues with Quilp). Her one friend and his family are in no position to help her.
Her beauty and kindness are a kind of litmus test for those she encounters aren't they? None of them find her useless or foolish, but they quickly twig to her vulnerability.
ps one of the things that bodes well for Dick is his initial neutral response to Nell. He thinks of her as a child, a friend's sister, someone who doesn't fit into his own "adult" world.
Touché. I agree. Nell is becoming more interesting. As she was flat. And now punch! Too fun. I love dick. And I don't love grandpop.
Margaret wrote: "I'm still not seeing the flat characters... are we talking about Nell? What would have to be included in her characterization to make her fully realized? "Yes, Nell among others.
What would make her more fully realized? Well, for a few examples, her at any point getting mad or frustrated or upset at anybody -- every normal person gets upset at some point, but she never does. Complaining about anything. Having a less than perfect response to any situation. Making a mistake. Even when her feet are sore and bleeding she doesn't complain, doesn't waver. That's not normal human behavior.
E.M. Forster, in his series of lectures titled Aspects of the Novel offered his definition of flat and round characters. His concepts act as a base for definition, debate and discussion. I always scurry back to much of what he proposes in that book to create a foundation for discussion. I agree with Everyman that Nell, to this point in the novel, in not fully realized. She is acted upon, one-sided rather than actively creating, altering or exhibiting any push back to her character.Being a flat character (if that is what Nell is and will remain) does not lesson her impact, stature or importance as a character. I would go further and suggest that relatively few of Dickens' characters achieve Forester's criteria for a fully-realized round character. Much of my love of Dickens is his ability to create character, be they flat or round.
as a reader of stories I do like the way dickens creates his characters. leaving the readers to decide on their flat or fat presence. be that his intention or not. although I love forester , he does OVER explain his characters and their motives for EVERTHING. sometimes I want to tell him that the reader counts too. I think Nell would have more substance if we knew more of her background. how did she learn to read so well. a school, a tutor, grandpop (assuming he had better days). what happened to mom and dad and when. has she ever lived anywhere else? kit has a more normal life and she is teaching him. just knowing her better would help.
Nell could be that easy going. I am. and children can be that way. but not to issue one complaint in this extreme situation is bizzare. especially the ease with which she gave up her home. it is not indicated that she ever lived anywhere else. is seemed as if she was glad to leave and be a neophyte beggar. aside from getting away from quilp. she doesn't have a doll or memento. she only wants grandpop. and he is rotten. which would make him great fertilizer. the sooner he takes a dirt nap the better.
."Evil/wickedness is almost always more interest..."
And two of those good people are diagnosed with idiocy. he prince in his title and Don by general opinion. I would nominate Phileas Fog to that group.
I for one can vouch for the wicked catching the attention. I prefer spirited characters. I love bad guys.
Like heathcliff and Katherine. They are the stars of that story. They are terrible awful rotten people.
I am most interested in quilp and the questionable performers at this time. Concerned for Nell but she still tunes out easily.
The race is on !
Peter wrote: "Being a flat character (if that is what Nell is and will remain) does not lesson her impact, stature or importance as a character."Oh, yes, absolutely right. Flat characters can have tremendous importance in plot and events in a novel -- witness Uncle Ralph in Nicholas Nickleby, who is flat but has incredible importance as a character.
And we can become emotionally attached even to flat characters -- again witness in NN how attached some of us became to Kate, who is one of the flattest characters one can imagine.
Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "Being a flat character (if that is what Nell is and will remain) does not lesson her impact, stature or importance as a character."Oh, yes, absolutely right. Flat characters can ha..."
Yes, but it is a source of boredom if a flat character is the hero of a novel - because then the novel revolves around a vacuum. Nell's behaviour is way too gentle and forbearing but in the light of what Margaret pointed out earlier - thank you for the link, by the way! - about Dickens's problems with women, her passivity and vulnerability - and her noble spirit - absolutely make sense. For Dickens there was probably a lot of emotional gratification involved in creating such a madonna-like character.
As to me, she is just a female Oliver Twist - only her nose is less like a tapir's.
I have come to realize that I love flat characters. I've been hoping to become one for years and didn't even realize it. I pray a lot, usually short prayers and I love The Lord's Prayer, and if I mention myself at all it's along the lines of "help me to love others the way You want me to", "help me to be a better person", "a better Christian", "not just act like I love others but really love them", you get the idea. Now I realize all along I've been trying to be a flat person, good all the time. Well I'm still going to keep trying, so hopefully we can add me to the list with Nell & Kate & some other characters I can think of but we're not at them yet so I won't mention them. So there. :-}
Yes Kim, I grew up in a devout Christian Family (my maternal grandfather was a Presbyterian Minister), and in a community that was about 90% Mormon. For that reason, I know that there are people even today who would see Nell as an inspiration, and would admire her for her courage and loyalty her kindness and charity. She is acting out the ancient moral dilemma: what does the conscientiously good person do when she is victimized?To me, Dickens believes that it is almost impossible to lead a moral life if one is without resources. I think that Nell is meant to represent one of those rare souls who is constitutionally incapable of causing suffering even to those who do her great wrong. Because she is without resources she can't insulate herself from the plotters, but she isn't about to give up without making a heroic attempt to save herself and her grandfather. One thing I really love in this book is the intuitive positive response she gets from those who even in great adversity try to treat others in the way that they themselves would wish to be treated.
Margaret wrote: "Yes Kim, I grew up in a devout Christian Family (my maternal grandfather was a Presbyterian Minister), and in a community that was about 90% Mormon. For that reason, I know that there are people ..."Nell is, indeed, a very fascinating character, and one that offers much to discuss. To this point of the novel (and trying hard not to look ahead) I cannot recall much said about why Nell is so good, or how she came to be so good. Margaret, I think you are certainly right to see that Nell is one of those rare souls who cannot cause suffering to others. Nell is a remarkable creation by Dickens.
Peter wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Yes Kim, I grew up in a devout Christian Family (my maternal grandfather was a Presbyterian Minister), and in a community that was about 90% Mormon. For that reason, I know that ..."Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I have to say that I don't see why Nell should be such a fascinating character at all. Rather than a realistic character, Little Nell is a Saint - and there are no saints, at least I've never met any - or rather a kind of canvas on which Dickens could blot all the pale colours of his sentimentality and his wishful thinking as to what a perfect woman should be like. Little Nell, to me, is one of the deadest literary characters I've ever come across, ranking in terms of triteness with the Little Prince and Winnie-the-Pooh, because she is completely aloof from her surroundings - unchangeable, one-dimensional and an overrunning cup of human kindness. There are other literary figures like Prince Myshkin or Tolstoy's Pierre, who stand for human kindness and virtue, but unlike Nell these guys really interact with their surroundings, they experience fears, doubts, temptations and change, and we know that there could be, and are, people like that - benevolent and decent, but human, and no bleached marble saints as Nell.
So I hope you will not start throwing shoes at me or anything like that, but I cannot see anything remarkable about Nell - she is so shallow and boring that it is no wonder Dick Swiveller is the true hero of this story.
*running for cover*
I'll ride shot gun!in this story I am on the edge of my seat waiting... for dick,the brass sibblings, quilp. anyone to come back. the pony has made more of an impression on me than Nell. even when I try to relax and let Nell be... something, I just forget about her completely.
at this point the title is getting on my nerves. it sounds so wondrous. but no. its not. no shop. nothing to be curios about.
dick has the right idea. just keep drinking. you'll get through this yet.
Peter wrote: "Yes, evil offers so much more potential. Dostoyevsky, when writing The Idiot, commented on the difficulty of creating Prince Myshkin and said that there were only three entirely good characters in literature: Don Quixote, Mr. Pickwick and Jesus. "I find it interesting that I've been searching these last few days for a list or lists of all the entirely good characters in literature. I can't find a thing on good characters, but lots and lots about the "bad" guys. Lists like the 50 greatest villains in literature, the 11 most evil characters in literature, 100 best evil characters, 10 best evil women, etc. What about the good guys???
Oh, here's two Dickens characters who made the top 50 bad guys list:
Bill Sikes from Oliver Twist, by Charles Dickens
Quilp from The Old Curiosity Shop, by Charles Dickens
Kim wrote: "Peter wrote: "Yes, evil offers so much more potential. Dostoyevsky, when writing The Idiot, commented on the difficulty of creating Prince Myshkin and said that there were only three entirely good ..."Hi Kim
Sounds like there is a bunch of evil lists out there! Perhaps because of Halloween? Dickens seems to like to place polar opposites in most/all of his novels. Little Nell - Quilp; Jo - Orlick; Lucie - the Marquis. I'm wondering if this pattern of creating opposites, all of whom seem to be flat characters, gives Dickens a framework in which to grow other characters with his novels.
Christine wrote: "I'll ride shot gun!in this story I am on the edge of my seat waiting... for dick,the brass sibblings, quilp. anyone to come back. the pony has made more of an impression on me than Nell. even whe..."
Hi Christine
Nell does, at times, grate on me too. Do you think Dickens is trying to create/reproduce the image of the perfect Victorian woman? ... Be seen, don't be heard, don't have a strong opinion and don't rock the boat?
Tristram wrote: "Rather than a realistic character, Little Nell is a Saint - and there are no saints, at least I've never met any"I suspect you have met a few, but perhaps failed to recognize them as such.
Orwell started his essay "Reflections of Gandhi" this way: Saints should always be judged guilty until they are proved innocent, but the tests that have to be applied to them are not, of course, the same in all cases.
Perhaps you just haven't proved any innocent yet.
Back to Nell, though, I'm not sure she's a saint, though she certainly has some saintly attributes (unfailingly placing the welfare of another ahead of her own being one), and while I agree with Margaret that she offers much to discuss, I don't find her fascinating. There is not enough depth there, or as I have said before, not enough moral ambiguity to make her fascinating to me.
But now that the question has been raised, I also wonder how she got to be who she is. A bit of me wonders whether what she has is what I call "whipped puppy" syndrome, whether any independence of thought has been sucked out of her.
I do believe our Abel Garland, the son of Mr. and Mrs. Garland that is, is a little bit strange. In chapter 14 this conversation takes place at the notary's office:'It's a happy circumstance, a truly happy circumstance,' said the Notary, 'to happen too upon his eight-and-twentieth birthday, and I hope I know how to appreciate it. I trust, Mr Garland, my dear Sir, that we may mutually congratulate each other upon this auspicious occasion.' ........
'You see, Mr Witherden,' said the old lady, 'that Abel has not been brought up like the run of young men. He has always had a pleasure in our society, and always been with us. Abel has never been absent from us, for a day; has he, my dear?'
'Never, my dear,' returned the old gentleman, 'except when he went to Margate one Saturday with Mr Tomkinley that had been a teacher at that school he went to, and came back upon the Monday; but he was very ill after that, you remember, my dear; it was quite a dissipation.'
'He was not used to it, you know,' said the old lady, 'and he couldn't bear it, that's the truth. Besides he had no comfort in being there without us, and had nobody to talk to or enjoy himself with.'
'That was it, you know,' interposed the same small quiet voice that had spoken once before. 'I was quite abroad, mother, quite desolate, and to think that the sea was between us--oh, I never shall forget what I felt when I first thought that the sea was between us!'
So if I'm reading this correctly Abel is 28 years old and has never been apart from his parents except one time, and that time he got sick because of it?? Maybe he was a child at the time, but he isn't anymore and still spends every single day with his parents? It seems pretty strange to me. My son is 28 years old, still lives here (I try to kick him out sometimes but it never works), but even though this is his home, he's always running around somewhere, out with friends and such; when he's not at work that is. I can't imagine him spending all his free time with us. We'd all be crazy. :-}
Mod
I know who the first crazee is, who is "the other"?
Mod
I think you are the crazy person. Shh!!! Don't tell anyone.
Jonathan wrote: "I think you are the crazy person. Shh!!! Don't tell anyone."I freely admit to being one of the crazies, if not the only crazy in the club, maybe on the entire web site. However, at least I'm not a grump.
Where have you been anyway, out on some island off the coast of Washington that no one has ever heard of without internet or phone service? Oh, that might be one of the other grumps. :-}
The Legal Gentleman named Brass
Chapter 11
Mr. Swiveller's Pugilistic Skill
Chapter 13
Wonderful Kim, thank you! :) I agree about the younger Garland man/boy (28!!) -I think he must be what Dickens might have called "simple". I'm assuming these are characters we'll never meet again, as is Dickens's wont.
But on to the next...
I found this set of chapters right up there with the most depressing reading I have ever done. The good people crushed, the bad people triumphant. The only mild bit of hope is in Chapter 14, where Kit meets the Abels, who give some hope of being kind and decent people.