The Pickwick Club discussion
The Old Curiosity Shop
>
TOCS CHAPTERS 22-28
date
newest »
newest »
Christine wrote: "OK. NOW I am having fun!! When dick announces HER NAME IS SOPHIE WACKLES ... I fall off my chair. He is so funny. And that sneaky quilp...Mrs J is great too. Interesting that she is introduced to..."
That makes two of us. for all his nastiness, I get a kick out Quilp's actions and activities. He is creepy yet I enjoy it when he is part of a chapter we read.
yes I do love a well constructed evil genius. he has a certain charisma, in that I can take me eyes off of him. Danny devito would be well cast as Quilp.
Christine wrote: "yes I do love a well constructed evil genius. he has a certain charisma, in that I can take me eyes off of him. Danny devito would be well cast as Quilp."who's going to be Dick in your movie?
Russell brand. He plays a great loveable drunk.
OK. This Nell person s getting stranger by the minute. She is suddenly this mesmerizing beauty while parading around with Mrs Harley. I know it has been stated that she is pretty but out of nowhere she is stunning people. Then later on she is schlepping about with grandpa and she doesn't seem to make an impression in that regard. Back then beauty went a long way. In writing , once you establish that breathtaking beauty , the beauty is worked into the plot. Here is is tossed out there like what she had for dinner last night. Strange.
At one point she wonders if grandpa knows what is going on around him. At all. As if he is insensible in an established manner. Not like "oh! What is up with that?" But "poor thing. Does he even know?". Yet she is trusting him to know where and how to drive them on. Its like she comes up with a persona on demand per situation.
And it gets more disturbing when she sleeps with wax works. Her attitude is "hmmmm...creepy but oh well. "
Let's not even mention the death of the young scholar. She mused on how wonderful her life was!? And the narrator stated that the child was lucky to be spared the horrors of life , better off that way. So life is agony in general. Except for Nell. She's got it good.
Witness a stranger die. A kid too. The freaking out grandma. The strangely clingy teacher. Grandpa looking it ...and she is mildly creeped by them.
Am I in the right place? Is this the Steven king club. Nell is one gesture away from psycho.
So here's a question to you all. With the school teacher episode comes yet another in an already expanding display of foreshadowing. I imagine most of us are not too bothered by the somewhat morose/sad tone that Dickens presents his readers in TOCS. This style doesn't bother me, but I'm not sure if it's because I enjoy the power and the style of Dickens, or it's because Dickens can just do it better (and longer) than other authors.Does anyone have another novel/author that can draw out foreshadowing or suspense better than Charles Dickens?
For me the illustration of Nell and her grandfather at the schoolhouse is my favourite to date. What is your favourite so far? I'm guessing a Quilp or two.
Dickens is super great at creating that intense feeling. Suspense. During David copperfield and DOMBEY & son I was on the edge of my seat !!I think Thomas hardy does a great job. Especially Tess of the Durbervilles. .
So far my favorite part is quilt and dick! The poor orphan seen. Next ... Enter mrs jarley. I as an American , love a strong independent woman. And am a sucker for unique , artistic people.
You tube him as Arthur. ( remake. Awful!). He was in get him to the Greek and married to singer Katie perry for 1 minute.
I was smiling at the beginning of Chapter 22 when they are getting Kit ready to move to the Garland's. The chapter starts:"The remainder of that day and the whole of the next were a busy time for the Nubbles family, to whom everything connected with Kit's outfit and departure was matter of as great moment as if he had been about to penetrate into the interior of Africa, or to take a cruise round the world."
It reminded me of how when we are getting ready to go on vacation, we get all the clothing we want to take, and then add a few more things to it "just in case" we need them, then a few more, and again the day we leave, until it feels like I packed just about everything I own, prepared for any kind of weather, winter, summer or anything in between. Which is annoying when it comes to unpacking it all again and realizing we never used even half of what we took. :-}
Peter wrote: "For me the illustration of Nell and her grandfather at the schoolhouse is my favourite to date. What is your favourite so far? I'm guessing a Quilp or two."My favorite? Hmm, I think the one in Chapter 18 where they are all sitting around the table in the inn eating, even though I can't figure out who they all are. Do you know what I like to do sometimes? I look at the illustrations closely looking for the initials of the artist who drew the picture. In TOCS Dickens used different illustrators so I look for their initials to see if I can find which one did which drawing, some of them you can tell just by the look of the picture, but I check for the initials anyway, just for fun. Sometimes it is easy to spot, sometimes hard, and sometimes I can't find them at all. :-}
Peter wrote: "That makes two of us. for all his nastiness, I get a kick out Quilp's actions and activities. He is creepy yet I enjoy it when he is part of a chapter we read. "I too would rather spend an afternoon with Quilp than with grandpa, only because I could be as mean as I want to be to Quilp without feeling at all guilty. And boy there's a lot of stuff I would tell that dwarf that his wife is to afraid to say. :-}
Chapter 23 smiling moments:"Mr Richard Swiveller wending his way homeward after this fashion, which is considered by evil-minded men to be symbolical of intoxication, and is not held by such persons to denote that state of deep wisdom and reflection in which the actor knows himself to be, "
and:
"The dwarf taking no heed of this adjuration, Mr Swiveller advanced with the view of inflicting upon him condign chastisement. But forgetting his purpose or changing his mind before he came close to him, he seized his hand and vowed eternal friendship, declaring with an agreeable frankness that from that time forth they were brothers in everything but personal appearance"
then:
'I not a choice spirit?' cried Quilp.
'Devil a bit,sir,' returned Dick. 'A man of your appearance couldn't be. If you're any spirit at all,sir, you're an evil spirit. Choice spirits,' added Dick, smiting himself on the breast, 'are quite a different looking sort of people, you may take your oath of that,sir.'
Most of the amusing moments of the novel so far, at least for me, seem to come from Christine's Dick Swiveller. :-}
I wonder what the school boy died of? It seems to me that a lot of times in Dickens novels people die slowly, over time they get weaker and weaker, they have a cough, must rest more, etc. But it sounds like this boy was outside playing not long before Nell and her grandfather meet the school master. He says to them: 'I hoped to have seen him on the green to-night. He was always foremost among them. But he'll be there to-morrow.' So it doesn't seem like he was sick all that long. I also wonder why the boy's grandmother seems to think he died from studying too much. She says to the schoolmaster "If he hadn't been poring over his books out of fear of you, he would have been well and merry now, I know he would." Hmm, so too much reading can kill you. :-}
Kim wrote: "Chapter 23 smiling moments:"Mr Richard Swiveller wending his way homeward after this fashion, which is considered by evil-minded men to be symbolical of intoxication, and is not held by such pers..."
I think Dick and Quilp would make an excellent, but bent duo, doing skits on Saturday Night Live. It's been a long time since I've been able to stay up that late, but I'd make an effort to see it.
Christine wrote: "Mrs J is great too. Interesting that she is introduced to us as a Christian woman"It is interesting that Dickens introduces Mrs. J as a Christian woman. It is the first time we have even had a glimpse of the woman and without knowing a thing about her she is called a " Christian lady, stout and comfortable to look upon, who wore a large bonnet trembling with bows." I wonder if non Christian ladies weren't fat, were very uncomfortable, and never ever wore a bonnet with bows on it. :-} You could probably tell I'm a Christian first meeting me either because if you came to my house it would be filled with Christmas things all year long, or because I always wear a cross, but I'm not sure what gave it away with Mrs. J.
Kim wrote: "Christine wrote: "Mrs J is great too. Interesting that she is introduced to us as a Christian woman"It is interesting that Dickens introduces Mrs. J as a Christian woman. It is the first time we..."
Its probably the light of the lord shining through you!!
I think the Christian woman reference is being used to set up Mrs J as a good. A person who will help you right now without judgement... And so on. It is a very strange think I . so far there has been no other reference to her being religious. There is no bible next to her "bottle".
Seems you need a new bonnet to go with your cross! A bigass bonnet filled with poinsettia... and lights too!! What a news feature you will be.
I have gotten the impression that Dickens was very independent minded about religion (I'm fairly sure that Victorian churches were facing many of the same challenges that confront the churches of today). I think I read somewhere that Dickens wrote his own Nativity story for his family.He seems to believe in a higher power but he is highly critical of the sort of church that drew Kit's mum in.
Margaret wrote: "I have gotten the impression that Dickens was very independent minded about religion (I'm fairly sure that Victorian churches were facing many of the same challenges that confront the churches of t..."Hi Margaret
You are right. Dickens wrote a book titled The Life of Our Lord which is a much shortened version of The New Testament. It was meant only for the eyes of his own children, and was not published for public consumption during his lifetime. In fact, for a little trivia, only a handful of copies of The Life of Our Lord existed in the 19C. It was only in the 1930's that Dickens' heirs permitted a larger publication and distribution of the text. This makes it the last complete work of Dickens to be published, The Mystery of Edmund Drood being unfinished when Dickens died in 1870. For real trivia I've resorted to asking friends to name the only Dickens book to be published in the 20C. It's a very pedantic question, but few, if any, people will probably get the right answer ;)
Honestly, to me it isn't very good. It's rather saccharine and preachy, but then again it was written in the 19C and was rather didactic in nature.
Peter wrote: "Margaret wrote: "I have gotten the impression that Dickens was very independent minded about religion (I'm fairly sure that Victorian churches were facing many of the same challenges that confront ..."Thanks for your erudite reply Peter! That's very interesting.
Well with all his greatness, Dickens (and I can't blame him for this because I'm the same way) seems to want so much to believe in simple moral good. I mean I think his more symbolic characters (Nell, Smyke, Esther) aren't entirely driven by a cynical wish to please the moralizing peanut gallery but represent his persistent search for an identifiable, concrete goodness. But as you say, they aren't very good as in "engaging." While they interest me in the way that they interact with the rest of the novel's world I am always happy to be done with them and get on to Quilp and Nicholas and Lady Deadlock.
Margaret's comment about Dickens' "persistent search for an identifiable, concrete goodness" is very true. I am neither an author or a psychologist but years of reading authors and about authors has led me to believe that through writing authors often create worlds in which they explore the "what ifs" of society on the canvas of a page. Questions such as is there an identifiable, concrete goodness, why is it that people are attracted to evil and is redemption and forgiveness possible are all addressed in TOCS and other Dickens novels, and, I think, Dickens evolves and is more perceptive in these insights throughout his writing career.
So to me at least it's an interesting dichotomy (erm hope I'm using this rightly) between the "sort of good" characters and the "too good" characters in Dickens with the same being true of the bad 'uns. As for the baddies you can compare Ralph Nickleby with Quilp. Ralph Nickleby gets some small sort of humanity awarded to him in the end... Quilp none. Going back over this thread a bit:
Peter wrote: Does anyone have another novel/author that can draw out foreshadowing or suspense better than Charles Dickens?
I can't think of one who does it better and so I have to answer a question with questions: where else do you see it used as much? Did Dickens create it as a device that supported the serialization? I'm not well read in classic literature so I'm thinking of Jane Austen who plays her cards VERY close to her vest sometimes. She certainly used foreshadowing but its much more subtle at least most of the time I think and she relies on it much less?
Also wanted to point out a passage that is very memorable to me from the previous thread's chapters:
There was but one lady who seemed to understand the child and she was one who sat alone in a handsome carriage while two young men in dashing clothes who had just dismounted from it talked and laughed loudly at a little distance appearing to forget her quite There were many ladies all around but they turned their backs or looked another way or at the two young men not unfavourably at them and left her to herself She motioned away a gipsy woman urgent to tell her fortune saying that it was told already and had been for some years but called the child towards her and taking her flowers put money into her trembling hand and bade her go home and keep at home for God's sake
(p.200 in the Google ebook)
This passage to me demonstrates Dickens' great power as a writer. It is chilling and provokes an intense empathetic response in me, for some reason I think of Ralph Nickleby's secret wife.
Margaret wrote: "So to me at least it's an interesting dichotomy (erm hope I'm using this rightly) between the "sort of good" characters and the "too good" characters in Dickens with the same being true of the bad ..."Hi Margaret
I think the method of publication by serialization was a major, if not the major reason Dickens developed such a fine touch and ability to use suspense and foreshadowing. Dickens was very hands on in the entire process of each novel, from the writing of it, to the illustrations, to the publication of each week's/month's separate issue. Since there was a time gap between each part, Dickens did get feedback from friends and readers as to what was and was not "working" in each part. For character, for example, beginning from The PP Dickens responded to what the readers liked. Sam Weller was to have been a very minor character in the novel, but readers really liked the character, so Dickens gave him a more prominent role in the novel.
More to your point, by creating suspense and foreshadowing Dickens could create the "who shot JR" moment at the end of one part, and thus make people really want to by the next installment. Perhaps the best phrase on writing a serialized novel and the real importance of suspense and foreshadowing comes from Dickens' friend, fellow writer, and man who had his material published in Dickens' magazines. "Make them laugh, make them cry, make them wait" Wilkie Collins said. That's the secret of the serialized weekly/monthly novels.
Wilke Collins was a genius. I am always impressed with his plots. I am not savvy enough about writing novels to explain myself ( like Peter can). But as a reader I never want his books to end. He lures me into the pages, coddles me and makes me a home.
Christine wrote: "Wilke Collins was a genius. I am always impressed with his plots. I am not savvy enough about writing novels to explain myself ( like Peter can). But as a reader I never want his books to end. He l..."Hi Christine
Wilkie Collins is great and I'm glad to read you like him too. Can you imagine being a fly on the wall and listening to Collins and Dickens talk about their writing? It would be best, no doubt, to only listen to those discussions. I get the feeling other conversations would be, well, ... you know ;)
We meet Mrs. Jarley in Chapter 26 and I like her, she reminds me of Miss La Creevy from Nicholas Nickleby and she was one of my favorite characters, But I wonder, what happened to Mr. Jarley?
In Chapter 27 grandfather sleeps in the empty wax-works carriage and Nell sleeps in the caravan with Mrs. Jarley. After Nell makes a bed for him and says goodnight and is on her way back to the wagon, she happens to see Quilp when he "suddenly emerged from the black shade of the arch". She is in the shadows and he doesn't see her. Now I'm wondering, is this an example of one of Dickens coincidences? Because I don't think we've had one so far.
OK, so in Chapter 28 Mrs. Jarley is showing one of the figures in her wax-works a Jasper Packlemerton who had 14 wives and destroyed them all by tickling the souls of their feet. Well of course I had to look this up and this is what I found:"A news item first published in the Illustrated Police News on December 11, 1869: 'A Wife Driven Insane by Husband Tickling Her Feet.' The account states that Michael Puckridge had previously threatened the life of his wife, described as "an interesting looking young woman." Puckridge tricked his wife into allowing herself to be tied to a plank. Afterward, "Puckridge deliberately and persistently tickled the soles of her feet with a feather. For a long time he continued to operate upon his unhappy victim who was rendered frantic by the process. Eventually, she swooned, whereupon her husband released her. It soon became too manifest that the light of reason had fled. Mrs. Puckridge was taken to the workhouse where she was placed with the other insane inmates."
"But can one actually die from tickling? In Laurent Joubert’s Renaissance treatise on laughter, he reports hearing “of a young man whom two girls were tickling importunately to the point that he no longer uttered a word. They thought he had fainted until, thunderstruck, they realized he was dead, asphyxiated."
So, what do you think?? I wonder how long they had to keep tickling? :-}
Kim wrote: "So, what do you think?? I wonder how long they had to keep tickling? :-} "I wonder much more about the context in which they were tickling him. At least he did with even more than a smile on his face ;-)
Peter wrote: "Christine wrote: "Wilke Collins was a genius. I am always impressed with his plots. I am not savvy enough about writing novels to explain myself ( like Peter can). But as a reader I never want his ..."Would I ever!!! I think of things like that , sipping wine and doing impromptu plays with a hodge podge of participants. Or people watching at a cafe. ..... In my imagination of course. I would miss TV and toilets too much to really go back. Though , they can come here!
Betteredge is dear to me. �
Kim wrote: "I wonder what the school boy died of? It seems to me that a lot of times in Dickens novels people die slowly, over time they get weaker and weaker, they have a cough, must rest more, etc. But it ..."YEAH! What was the deal with the schoolboy? The scenes with nell and gp are all frothed with creepy and..... Well, my mind can't help wandering to inappropriate behavior. I try to be nonchalant about it but red and blue flashing lights are often in the background.
When I read the parts with these two I get the same feeling that I did when I read A HOUSE TO LET. The chapters CD wrote were great. The other chapters were creepy depressing ,....makes me suspicious.
The Dunce improves the Occasion
Chapter 25
As you might guess chapter 24 is a favourite of mine ;>}
Nostalgia for the oldfashioned schoolroom, possibly, Peter? Hello again! Thought I'd left you both in the next room... (thread) Thanks for posting the illustrations, Kim. I'm trying to sort out which of the 4 artists did which! I think a couple of them only did one each. Have you managed to work it out?
Oh the metaphors! We have Punch/Quilp and now we have the poor little dying scholar, who finds freedom through death - and Dickens envies those who die young their happiness? If that's not a reference to Mary Hogarth I don't know what is! So that part is not only a metaphor but also foreshadowing (view spoiler).
Various characters themselves seem to be metaphors for the running themes of entrapment and loss of freedom. I know what happens, but can't at the moment see how these two wanderers are going to get there. Dickens seems to be enjoying the cameos (the story is jam-packed with wonderfully eccentric characters!) and his "literary devices" too much to do much with the main story. And is Quilp actually around in person? Or is he a figment of Little Nell's imagination?
Jean wrote: "Nostalgia for the oldfashioned schoolroom, possibly, Peter? Hello again! Thought I'd left you both in the next room... (thread) Thanks for posting the illustrations, Kim. I'm trying to sort out w..."
The death of Mary Hogarth and Dickens' reaction to it seems to follow through many of his subsequent novels.
A rich vein for many scholarly papers over the last century.
Mrs J is great too. Interesting that she is introduced to us as a Christian woman. I suspect that is referring to her good Samaritan approach to things. little bottle aside , there is nothing to indicate that she is religious. She is a smart chick. So is George. He sees it like it is.
Kipp seems smitten. Finally , potential love in the mix.
UGH!!! How long can grandpa hold on? He is so selfish and manipulative. I would spend an afternoon with quilp before creepy whiney grandpa.