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Use this topic thread for all Swann's Way discussions through page 64 / location 1180.

I have a favorite observation so far. It's on page 49. I won't post yet so as not to spoil for others who are not there.

It's fine to mention a passage and open it for discussion. If you're worried about spoilers just post at the top the page you're discussing so that people who are not there yet can skip the post if they want. Also, I divided the folders up by week so hopefully we won't have too many spoiler situations.

Page 49
"And in myself, too, many things have perished which i imagined would last for ever, and new ones have arisen, giving birth to new sorrows and new joys which in those days i could not have foreseen, just as now the old are hard to understand."
In my own life of 57 years this is something that i've found one learns happens to us all but Proust has a way of describing it perfectly.

I'm reading the Random House three volume edition (1981), so the page count doesn't quite match with the Modern Library edition. My apologies. In my edition, this quote is found on page 40:

"But of late I have been increasingly able to catch, if I listen attentively, the sound of the sobs which I had the strength to control in my father's presence, and which broke out only when I found myself alone with Mamma. In reality their echo has never ceased; and it is only because life is now growing more and more quiet around me that I hear them anew, like those convent bells which are so effectively drowned during the day by the noises of the street that one would have supposed them to have stopped, until they ring out again through the silent evening air"

Being at midlife, I find that I am more aware of the unresolved feelings and events of my youth that I never had time to notice when younger and attempting to make my way in the world. Those feelings and episodes loom larger now that "life is growing more and more quiet around me" and I find I must confront and find their meaning for me and my personal story. I found this quote to be a graceful and elegant expression of that internal experience.

Larry wrote: "I'm reading the Random House three volume edition (1981), so the page count doesn't quite match with the Modern Library edition. My apologies. In my edition, this quote is found on page 40:

"But o..."

There are so many of these feelings that he brings to light in which our experiences of youth resinate beneath the surface of our life even now.

Gloria wrote: "Page 49
"And in myself, too, many things have perished which i imagined would last for ever, and new ones have arisen, giving birth to new sorrows and new joys which in those days i could not have foreseen, just as now the old are hard to understand."

Yes, that's a powerful quote; there seem to be so many in this first chapter. Proust gets right down to business straight away in that he discusses sleep, dreams, remembering & forgetting dreams ("...I had forgotten the girl of my dream.") before he's then off on the trauma of not getting his nightly kiss and the character studies of his family and Swann. It's brilliant stuff.

I read somewhere that the initial chapter contains all the major themes of the rest of the novel - which bodes well as I really liked it. I'm reading it slowly, even re-reading much of it as I'm trying to get used to Proust's style; it's quite old-fashioned in a way, what with the long sentences and many digressions but it's good as it forces the reader to slow down and concentrate. I would like to make this my reading mission of the year: to slow down my reading; to read less not more and to concentrate on quality of reading not quantity. Hopefully Proust should help with that.

I was thrown out of my reverie by the paragraph beginning:
"Riding at a jerky trot, Golo, filled with an infamous design.." (page 10 of the 3 v French Pleiade version). Got out of bed... Wikipedia has all sorts of GOLOS but none that made any sense in this context. So then I looked up Genevieve de Brabant and found the dastardly Golo. Proust is talking about a medieval story as depicted on a lantern.

It's really quite incredible the way Proust taps into some sort of collective unconscious with these early pages. I can remember staring at a lightshade which depicted geese flying on it. Since the light shade was round, the geese were eternally flying, never landing, never stopping, and I can remember being intrigued by that idea.

Guy wrote: "I was thrown out of my reverie by the paragraph beginning:
"Riding at a jerky trot, Golo, filled with an infamous design.." (page 10 of the 3 v French Pleiade version). Got out of bed... Wikipedia ..."

And it's strange (to me) just how sensitive little Marcel is, because even this light display has a bad effect on him: "But I cannot express the discomfort I felt at this intrusion of mystery and beauty into a room which I had succeeded in filling with my own personality..." He finds it all fascinating but frightening.

I wonder how old he's supposed to be during this part of the story? I'm guessing about nine or ten years old.

Certainly enough old for his dad to think he shouldn't be getting kisses any more from his mum at night-time.

I connected w/Marcel about the lantern as the lampshade I stared at in my parents' room (I was sleeping there because I was recovering from a nasty injury) really troubled me and started me thinking about eternity. I must have been 8, perhaps 9 (remembering the injury I had).

Guy wrote: "I connected w/Marcel about the lantern as the one I stared at in my parents' room ..."

I suppose we're more susceptible to such musings at times when our subconscious can vie with our conscious thought such as when we're drifting in and out of sleep or recovering from an illness - Proust's involuntary and voluntary memory.

I didn't realise that the 'Madeleine moment' came so early in the novel. I liked the fact that even that was of Proust remembering having the involuntary memory of prior events.

The man gets in your head, I tell you! I hadn't thought about that lampshade in years.

I remembered the "Madeleine Moment" as you so well put it, from my first and only attempt to read the book. No wonder everyone quotes it--they're probably all cheating and haven't read the whole thing at all.

On the subject: that bit when he's describing bow he recalls all the beds in all the rooms he's slept in. (page 6 my edition)... I do that sometimes--not ALL the beds or rooms, but the ones from childhood.

Anyone else do that?

Although this first section has a lot to like I think my favourite part is the more straightforward narrative when Swann visits Combray and we get to see all the slights and snobbery of the family. They're unaware of Swann's life away from them, it seems, and anyway whatever he gets up to is beneath them. We're viewing Swann at this stage from their point of view but we're made to realise that it is not whole.

My favourite quote from this section:

But then, even in the most insignificant details of our daily life, none of us can be said to constitute a material whole, which is identical for everyone, and need only be turned up like a page in an account-book or the record of a will; our social personality is created by the thoughts of other people.

Hopefully there will be much more of this throughout the rest of the novel.

Guy wrote: "On the subject: that bit when he's describing bow he recalls all the beds in all the rooms he's slept in. (page 6 my edition)... I do that sometimes--not ALL the beds or rooms, but the ones from childhood.

Anyone else do that?"

I don't....but I may start to :-) Others may though.

When I was in my teens I remember regularly waking up in the dark and I was convinced that my bed was facing the opposite way than what it was. I 'knew' it wasn't but I was 'convinced' it was...it was low-level eerie...

"Riding at a jerky trot, Golo, his mind filled with an infamous design, issued from the little three-cornered forest which dyed dark green the slope of a hill, and advanced by leaps and bounds toward the castle of poor Genevieve de Brabant.

"This castle was cut off short by a curved line that was in fact the circumference of one if the transparent ovals in the slides that were pushed into position through a slot in the lantern."
William C. Carter's annotated "Swann's Way." (p 10)


Caveat: Do not read the novel as an autobiography. Proust blended what he read, witnessed, and experienced with his imagination.

Here is an example of a "magic lantern with slides" and an important website for future Proustians: The Society of Friends of Marcel Proust and Friends of Combray.



The Bedroom (Illiers-Combray Museum: La Maison de tante Léonie-Musée Marcel Proust)
English:


The Magic Lantern

The dresser which displays the slides.

A slide.

Another slide.

Did you notice a "discrepancy" in any of the slides?

Jonathan wrote: "Gloria wrote: "Page 49
"And in myself, too, many things have perished which i imagined would last for ever, and new ones have arisen, giving birth to new sorrows and new joys which in those days i ..."

I think you're on to something there Jonathan and i believe that taking it all much slower may be one of the best pearls we learn from this endeavor.

"For many years, during the course of which -- especially before his marriage -- M. Swann the younger came often to see them at Combray, my great-aunt and my grandparents never suspected that he had ceased entirely to live in the society which his family had frequented, and that, under the sort of incognito that the name of Swann gave him among us, they were harbouring -- with the complete innocence of a family of respectable innkeepers who have in their midst some celebrated highwayman without knowing it -- one of the most distinguished members of the Jockey Club, a particular friend of the Comte de Paris and of the Prince of Wales, and one of the men most sought after in the aristocratic world of the Faubourg Saint-Germain."

Please tell me, what is the main verb here? Is it ‘were� in “they were harbouring�? Why "came often" rather than "often came"? With all its subordinate clauses I cannot really make grammatical sense of this sentence.

edit: moved from introduction folder where I misplaced it. Jonathan partly answered this already, but I'm still not sure about that verb :)

Jonathan,

thanks for your answer. You made the sentence much clearer.

Jonathan wrote: "I guess that most modern writers would go further and 'boil' it down to several sentences."

I sometimes wonder how Proust gets away with using such a verbose style. Why do even modern readers accept it, even love it? (I do too, 99% of the time.) Maybe it's because it enhances the personality of the narrator and protagonist. It's how such a person would write. Perhaps, if Proust had written like Hemmingway, his novel might have been destroyed.

Tor wrote: "Hi all,

"For many years, during the course of which -- especially before his marriage -- M. Swann the younger came often to see them at Combray, my great-aunt and my grandparents never suspected t..."

**reply to Tor's original post moved from Introductions folder***

Welcome Tor. This seems to be a good example of Proust's convoluted sentences. I've found, so far anyway, that I make sense of them on a first reading if I read them slowly; but if I go back to analyse them then it's a bit of a struggle.

I'll leave a grammatical deconstruction to people more suited to such a task but it seems to make logical sense to me. Once all the asides or diversions are whittled away it reads as:

For many years M. Swann the younger came often to see them at Combray, during the course of which my great-aunt and my grandparents never suspected that he had ceased entirely to live in the society which his family had frequented, and that, they were harbouring one of the most distinguished members of the Jockey Club, and one of the men most sought after in the aristocratic world of the Faubourg Saint-Germain.

I guess that most modern writers would go further and 'boil' it down to several sentences.

Tor wrote: "I sometimes wonder how Proust gets away with using such a verbose style. Why do even modern readers accept it, even love it? (I do too, 99% of the time.) Maybe it's because it enhances the personality of the narrator and protagonist..."

I wonder just how natural his style is or whether he developed it that way for a specific reason. One effect is to slow down the reader - after all, pulp writers do the opposite when they want to speed up the action. Maybe Proust felt that all modern writing was veering towards the pulp writing style. This is just speculation at this stage...once I've read a bit more of ISOLT I'll probably read a bit more 'about' Proust.

Many years ago I read Gibbon's 'Decline & Fall' (c1780s) and his style was similar in a way, in that there were long convoluted sentences with asides and diversions...and loads of footnotes as well. As long as I concentrated and my mind didn't wander then I found it crystal clear and beautiful. But if I couldn't give it 100% of my attention then I was lost. I'm finding Proust's style is having a similar effect.

I also have a bit an attraction to this type of writing style as I naturally tend towards writing long sentences myself. I usually have to force myself to chop them down into shorter sentences to make it more 'readable'; especially at work. :-)

Thanks for the links and photos Marcelita, it helps with visualising the place and the period. I take it that they're photos that you took whilst visiting the house? Was that recently?

Discrepancy? The slides seem very rectangular. In the book they're described as being oval...is that it?

Marcelita wrote: "Caveat: Do not read the novel as an autobiography. Proust blended what he read and witnessed with his imagination."

I realise that as I've been posting messages I'm writing 'Proust' when I really mean the 'narrator'. Maybe it would be best if we all decide to use 'narrator' when we're talking about the fictional character and 'Proust' when we're talking about the real person. Any suggestions?

Jonathan wrote: "I realise that as I've been posting messages I'm writing 'Proust' when I really mean the 'narrator'. Maybe it would be best if we all decide to use 'narrator' when we're talking about the fictional character and 'Proust' when we're talking about the real person. Any suggestions?"

I thought it was quite clear, Jonathan.

Jonathan wrote: "Thanks for the links and photos Marcelita, it helps with visualising the place and the period. I take it that they're photos that you took whilst visiting the house? Was that recently?

Discrepancy..."

Jonathan, it is easy to slide into "Marcel" or "Proust," when thinking about "the narrator."

I have witnessed this in live-reading groups. Even when we know (as Guy wrote) who we are speaking about...others conflate the two. So, it's good practice to use "the narrator," when discussing the character in the book.

There are many similarities between the novel and Proust's life. He did visit Illiers during Easter, for a few years as a child, and once in the fall as a teen, but he spent most of the spring and early summers in Auteuil, with his mother's relatives.

Ah, you noticed the "oval" description vs the square slides...between the novel and reality. ;)

Keep looking, as that is not the discrepancy I saw in the photographs/slides.
Proust has taught me to look more closely.

Yes, I took the photos on my old iPhone this summer, unaware that photography is not allowed in the house! (Obviously, only thinking of capturing the moment for myself. I call it "personal quality.")

There was only one other couple roaming in the house, on another floor, who eventually left. No tour guides...nada. Silence...magical.

Marcelita wrote: "Keep looking, as that is not the discrepancy I saw in the photographs/slides.
Proust has taught me to look more closely. ..."

I'm not too sure...The tree leaves are blue not green (but that's just a technical issue)...they're framed so couldn't be used in the lantern as they are (but that's presumably to present them)....is the story sequence wrong in the bottom picture?...Her dress changes colour?

Jonathan wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Keep looking, as that is not the discrepancy I saw in the photographs/slides.
Proust has taught me to look more closely. ..."

I'm not too sure...Her dress changes coloured?"

Yes, the dress is painted two different colors
(The slide with the pink dress looks more like thick paper/plastic.)

The slide in the lantern shows #10 (pink dress) and #12. Where is #11? In the viewing slot?
(You can't see the numbers; I have close ups of the slides, but dare not post them all. Yikes!)
If so, that would make the "paper slide" three frames, as opposed to two frames on the dresser.

One assumes this was the same Magic Lantern (and slides) the family had in 1880; they may have created a "new, three-framed paper" slide for the museum tours.

"In the early 1950s a citizen of Illiers, Philibert-Louis Larcher, created the Society of the Friends of Marcel Proust, which ultimately acquired Jules's house from the heirs. An inspired local booster, Larcher re-created 'Marcel’s room' and 'Aunt Léonie's room' based on descriptions in the Search ."
Marcel Proust: A Life, with a New Preface by the Author BY William C. Carter

(Footnote 52; Chapter 1. Secret Places of the Heart)

A translated tour of the museum/house in Illiers-Combray, for fellow *Proustians.
"Adjacent is the magic lantern. Glass plates, precious, fragile and multicolored on which Proust discovered the adventures of Genevieve de Brabant."


*

This past summer in Cabourg, the great Japanese Proust scholar, Kazuyoshi Yoshikawa, gave a lecture on "La lanterne magique de Geneviève de Brabant."

Guy wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "I realise that as I've been posting messages I'm writing 'Proust' when I really mean the 'narrator'. Maybe it would be best if we all decide to use 'narrator' when we're talking ab..."

The account is very close to Proust's life, whether you call it autobiography, fictional autobiography, fiction, whatever...the narrator's name is referred to in volume 5, and as I read volume 5 first, I tend to think of the narrator by his name. Though I won't spoil it for the rest of you...

I find that concentrating too much gets me lost in the sentences but letting my mind wander a bit helps me puzzle them out better.

Evan wrote: "I find that concentrating too much gets me lost in the sentences but letting my mind wander a bit helps me puzzle them out better."

One suggestion from a NYU teacher:
"If you want to finish Marcel Proust's In Search of Lost Time, here is the secret: Read fast. Read for plot—though you won't understand what the plot is until the end."


When I read it for the first time, I would read the section fairly quickly, then return to those passages that resonated with me. Eventually, Proust's writing style became familiar. Just keep reading.

I don’t think there is a distinctive ‘I� in Proust’s novel � ‘the narrator� is in the process of ‘selving� - the self is a verb not a noun…continually remaking or discovering the self through the reflection/writing –there is the older narrator who’s an I and then the boy also an I and sometimes one blends into the other. Isn’t it hard to fix the self (those of us who think or reflect or write about our selves will notice the tendency to write or tell our own fictions, not only to ourselves but others), and though Proust had mastery through words, he shows us how elusive the self is.

Sometimes others try and ‘fix� us � as the family at Combray try and fix Swann into a particular attitude or ‘tonality� (like a depiction or picture) � fallen because of his courtesan wife or according to a ‘caste� system, or through memories of his parents. ‘But even with respect to the most insignificant things in life, none of us constitutes a material whole, identical for everyone, which a person has only to go to look up as though we were a book of specifications or a last testament; our social personality is a creation of the minds of others.� (p.22 Prendergrast/Penguin ed). The narrator then goes on to describe ‘two� Swanns � ‘I pass from the Swann I knew later with accuracy to that first Swann � to that first Swann in whom I rediscover the charming mistakes of my youth and who in fact resembles less the other Swann than he resembles the other people I knew at the time, as though it were the same in our life as in a museum where all the portraits from one period have a family look about them, one tonality…�

There’s not that one tonality in the depictions of the characters or of the narrator, whether we name him or no, or whether we assume Proust is delving into his own memoirs/memories to tell a fiction�

Jonathan wrote: "...I realise that as I've been posting messages I'm writing 'Proust' when I really mean the 'narrator'. Maybe it would be best if we all decide to use 'narrator' when we're talking about the fictional character and 'Proust' when we're talking about the real person. Any suggestions?

Another option is to call the narrator 'Marcel' which we usually wouldn't use about the author, and which is the name given to him in the novel. It also sounds less academic.

Thank you, Marcelita, for sharing that tip from the NYU teacher. I'm not sure I would have gotten past the first few pages without it. Even though sometimes it feels like the narrator is just rambling and going way off track, it's interesting how he keeps closing the circle before going off on another tangent. He brought the church steeple description back to his worry about not seeing his mother when he goes to sleep. Interesting. It's like reading a dream, where one thought leads to another and then transforms into something completely different.

Jonathan wrote: "Tor wrote: "I sometimes wonder how Proust gets away with using such a verbose style. Why do even modern readers accept it, even love it? (I do too, 99% of the time.) Maybe it's because it enhances ..."

Interestingly, studies of La Recherche have come to the conclusion that only one third of Proust's sentences can be considered long, but they obviously make a strong impression. There has been the theory that his longer sentences followed the labored rhythm of his asthmatic breathing, well...it's a theory.
And Proust's sentences are not any longer than Rousseau's.

Andree wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Tor wrote: "I sometimes wonder how Proust gets away with using such a verbose style. Why do even modern readers accept it, even love it? (I do too, 99% of the time.) Maybe it's bec..."

Yes, I thought it was just a French thing? Many of the texts I have read (academic and leisure reading) that have been translated from French seem to be written in this style. Maybe they are easier to follow along in the original language? [the worst, I have noticed, is Pierre Bourdieu]
I would love to hear if anyone else has noticed this in reading works translated from French - or if you have a rejoinder. :)

Some of the longest sentences I've encountered were in a book called Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace. That was an amazing book, but was definitely tough to digest sometimes. Many times I got lost in a sentence and would have to go back a page and try again. LOL!

Lucinda wrote: "Andree wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Tor wrote: "I sometimes wonder how Proust gets away with using such a verbose style. Why do even modern readers accept it, even love it? (I do too, 99% of the time.)..."

Actually, I read La Recherche in French and browsed through the English translation which I found somewhat easier to read than the original. That can probably be explained by the fact that the translator first has to thoroughly dissect the sentence, thus clarifying it for himself and the reader. It's not an easy read in either language, but I find the phrasing more reader-friendly in English than in French.

Lucinda wrote: "Andree wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Tor wrote: "I sometimes wonder how Proust gets away with using such a verbose style. Why do even modern readers accept it, even love it? (I do too, 99% of the time.)..."
Just want to add something, yes a lot of French literature translated into English comes across as verbose and/or overwritten, whereas in French it would just be considered as exquisitely written.
Different approaches. On the other hand, French readers often delight in the directness of American literature translated in French. Well..it's all about "Vive la différence!"

I also find Proust verbose and convoluted; this isn't a bad thing but it makes his writing appear quite old-fashioned. Many Victorian writers wrote that way and Henry James also springs to mind, though I still struggle with his prose. But once the reader gets used to Proust's style they can enjoy it. I think the trick is that each reader has to find their own way to read the book.

I quite like books and authors that are stylistically different, e.g. Beckett & Céline are two of my favourite authors. They don't have to be difficult, just inventive and playful. I still remember reading Joseph Heller's book Something Happened years ago and suddenly came across a closing parenthesis, when I checked back I realised that the opening parenthesis was several pages earlier! Maybe he was trying to outdo Proust.

Jonathan wrote: "I also find Proust verbose and convoluted; this isn't a bad thing but it makes his writing appear quite old-fashioned. Many Victorian writers wrote that way and Henry James also springs to mind, th..."

yes I agree it does seem to be a matter of getting acclimated to the writer's style. And I have found that once I do get acclimated I feel like I have been drawn completely into that writer's world (this is definitely the case for me with Faulkner at least).

Lucinda wrote: "yes I agree it does seem to be a matter of getting acclimated to the writer's style. And I have found that once I do get acclimated I feel like I have been drawn completely into that writer's world (this is definitely the case for me with Faulkner at least). "

I realised at an early stage that I wasn't going to be able to read Proust on my morning commute. I have to read a section through reasonably quickly but a give it a re-read a few days later. If it still doesn't sink in at that point I just move on....

It might be interesting to see how others have changed their reading patterns (or not) to cope with Proust?

Andree wrote: "Lucinda wrote: "Andree wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Tor wrote: "I sometimes wonder how Proust gets away with using such a verbose style. Why do even modern readers accept it, even love it? (I do too, 9..."
Response to Andree's message 37 (because the above blurb is utterly confusing)

Interesting! Would you say, then, that Proust is experimenting with style and sentence structure in his prose? Were there any other prose writers who were experimenting with style at the time that you could think of? Was he writing against French realism/ naturalism maybe?
As far as experimenting with style, I can only think of Joyce's Ulysses, which was written only 7 years (!) after the first volume of In Search of Lost Time.

I'm not at all sure that Proust was experimenting, although I'm sure it could be open to debate. In "Souvenir sur Marcel Proust", Robert Dreyfus wrote about Proust's style (loosely translated):"It is not at all about embellishment (...) not even a matter of technique, it is - like color for an artist - a characteristic of his vision, a revelation of that specific universe, visible to ourselves alone and invisible to others."
Often Proust has been referred to as a visionary and his unique style may very well be the reflection of that quality.