Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

(Photo Detcon 1)

General Discussion

September 1-5

Discussion Schedule:

September 5 & 6: Prologue, pages 1 - 6
September 7 - 13: Chapters 1 - 4, pages 7 - 60
September 14 - 20: Chapters 5 - 14, pages 61 - 153
September 21 - 30: Chapters 15 - Epilogue, pages 154 - 232


About Nnedi Okorafor








(Photo Katya Goring)

Magical Futurism





For Discussion:

Have you heard of or read Magical Futurism and/or Afrofuturism before and what do you think of this as a sub-genre?

Role of Women



Quote:

18:16
in my forthcoming book The Book of Phoenix the core of the story is all about who is the African women and where does she fit and what is her future? Science fiction has long been a bridge between sciences and the arts one that continues to evolve and reflect the affects its technology science and social political changes on people in the globalized societies. Science fiction is also where prefer to discuss and speculate about my culture.

Published on May 25, 2015
The 4th Annual Igbo Conference at SOAS, University of London .

Credit:
Key Note Speaker Nnedi Okorafor delivering a talk "Resident Alien" .
Standard YouTube License

For Discussion

How do you predict the rights of women will be portrayed in The Book of Phoenix?

Links shared by Beverly

Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ Afrofuturism Listopia

Read it and am looking forward to the discussion. she has already had another book come out since Phoenix, Lagoon, a sort of alien invasion of Lagos, and she has a third book coming this fall, Binti.

George wrote: "Read it and am looking forward to the discussion. she has already had another book come out since Phoenix, Lagoon, a sort of alien invasion of Lagos, and she has a third book coming this fall, Binti."

I am looking forward to reading Binti. I just love the cover.



This one of the first books being released under the Tor.com imprint that will be publishing novellas and short novels. And the prices for these ebooks are very reasonable.

I will start reading The Book of Phoenix tomorrow.

I have read Who Fears Death a few years ago.

I do recommend putting Lagoon on your to-read list.

George wrote: "I do recommend putting Lagoon on your to-read list."

:) It is on my very very long tbr list.

I was thinking of doing it as an audio book.

if she keeps coming out with 3 or more books per year, my list will grow longer as well. :)

Hi all!

It looks like it's time to get started! I'm excited to lead the discussion this month for The Book of Phoenix by Nnedi Okorafor. Until last year when I retired, I was a public high school librarian, so I first became familiar with Nnedi Okorafor through Zahrah the Windseeker and Akata Witch, but, unfortunately, never got to either book, so Phoenix was the first book of hers that I read. I have since added Who Fears Death and plan on catching up with her other works soon. I don't think we will have too much trouble staying away from spoilers for Who Fears Death, but do keep it in mind. I will post some links and pre-book discussion ideas in the next post and duplicate those as we go in the top thread so it's easy to go back to those links any time.

General Discussion

September 1-5 or so?

About Nnedi Okorafor







Magical Futurism





For Discussion:

Have you heard of or read Magical Futurism and/or Afrofuturism before and what do you think of this as a sub-genre?

Role of Women



Quote:

18:16
in my forthcoming book The Book of Phoenix the core of the story is all about who is the African women and where does she fit and what is her future? Science fiction has long been a bridge between sciences and the arts one that continues to evolve and reflect the affects its technology science and social political changes on people in the globalized societies. Science fiction is also where prefer to discuss and speculate about my culture.

Published on May 25, 2015
The 4th Annual Igbo Conference at SOAS, University of London .

Credit:
Key Note Speaker Nnedi Okorafor delivering a talk "Resident Alien" .
Standard YouTube License

For Discussion

How do you predict the rights of women will be portrayed in The Book of Phoenix?

Have you heard of or read Magical Futurism and/or Afrofuturism before and what do you think of this as a sub-genre?

Yes, I have heard and read Afrofuturism.
I have not heard the term Magical Futurism, but I have read books that are part of this subgenre.

Here are two more Afrofuturism lists that list books/authors:

/list/show/7...
- (There are also other tabs here that go into videos, articles, influence, etc.)

What do I think of it as a subgenre?
In many ways I am divided on what I think of it being labeled as with most labels it has its pros and cons.

By assigning it a subgenre - it allows readers/people who want to read books based on the subgenre definition to find similar books.

On the other hand it may turn some readers off and not pick up a book - labeled as such.

But I also believe that a lot of readers/people do not pay attention to "genre" definitions and just want to read a good story.

Because Afrofuturism is not limited to books it allows for those across different mediums to connect and support each other. There is power in numbers so this makes for more people to be aware of the philosophy and principles of Afrofuturism and for more honest and critical discussions. to occur.

Also it helps others who did not think there was a place/need/support group to pursue their interests.

I like the range of stories that are included in this subgenre - showing that there are diverse diverse stories that there is more than the singular story.

Karen Michele wrote: "Hi all!

It looks like it's time to get started! I'm excited to lead the discussion this month for The Book of Phoenix by Nnedi Okorafor. Until last year when I reti..."

Thanks for all of the wonderful information and the links.

I have read Akata Witch and was surprised on how much I enjoyed it as I am not a YA reader.

Thanks so much for your input and links, Beverly. I will be back with more thoughts soon!

I had not heard of Afrofuturism before I started looking for resources for this book, but I have read and loved some of the authors on the Afrofuturism list that Beverly shared: Toni Morrison, Charles R. Johnson and Ngũgĩ wa Thiong’o. I also noticed that a favorite of mine, Sherman Alexie, was named as an influence which makes sense. I was interested to read that it is much more than a literary idea. I plan to read more of Okorafor and also remedy my omission of Octavia E. Butler who has been on my TBR for a long time.

I also agree with what you said, Beverly, about the labeling of genres and that some readers might be turned away. I wonder if that's why the Locus Magazine article and publisher calls Okorafor's work Magical Futurism? As a former high school librarian, I am glad to hear you enjoyed Akata Witch, a YA book. There is a wealth of literary YA out there that I think adult readers would enjoy. In fact, I think with many of the quality YA books out there it is simply a marketing decision. For example, The Book Thief, was marketed as adult in Australia and YA in the US. Anyway, I'll step off that soap box now! I think that there are definitely pros and cons of any sub genre type label!

Would we be ready to discuss the prologue this weekend? I think it would be interesting to compare our reactions to the prologue based on whether or not we had read Who Fears Death before The Book of Phoenix.

So, I am reading The Book of Phoenix, but I have not read Who Fears Death. After tweeting with Ms. Okorafor, who stated she is not a linear writer, I decided to go with TBoP first, then read WFD. I know conversation of both will happen, and I don't mind spoilers, so I'm all in. I'm reading the Prologue tonight. :)

Karen Michele wrote: "I had not heard of Afrofuturism before I started looking for resources for this book, but I have read and loved some of the authors on the Afrofuturism list that Beverly shared: [author:Toni Morris..."

well, if you haven't read Octavia Butler yet, you should as soon as possible. Her works are very intelligently put together and beautifully written, if occasionally a bit disturbing.

George wrote: "Karen Michele wrote: "I had not heard of Afrofuturism before I started looking for resources for this book, but I have read and loved some of the authors on the Afrofuturism list that Beverly share..."

I know! I promise I will soon.

How do you predict the rights of women will be portrayed in The Book of Phoenix?

I am not necessarily going to make a prediction as I am trying to leave my mind open to what the author is going to bring in this story. I am not going to set myself up so if my prediction turns out wrong (which it probably would) I will not be disappointed in the direction the story takes.

I will say I am expecting that the author will expose us to the culture/society where there will be a woman/women who are suppose to abide my the rules of their culture/society and they will want to be more than their society wants them or expects them to be.

I will be joining the discussion this month, but I am still finishing up Who Fears Death. I have The Book of Phoenix waiting at the library for this weekend. (I like to read in order of publication if I can...)

Great answers to the subgenre questions, Beverly! I agree wholeheartedly.

I've read works that are considered Afrofuturism, but I'm not totally familiar with the term (I'm still getting used to "speculative fiction" as opposed to sci-fi/fantasy). I have Mothership: Tales from Afrofuturism and Beyond on my (physical) bookshelf but haven't read it yet.

From the Wiki description: "Afrofuturism is a literary and cultural aesthetic that combines elements of science fiction, historical fiction, fantasy, Afrocentricity, and magic realism with non-Western cosmologies in order to critique not only the present-day dilemmas of people of color, but also to revise, interrogate, and re-examine the historical events of the past."

Based on that, and my science-fiction-flavored upbringing, I think Afrofuturism can be a very powerful idea. I have always liked "science fiction" because of its ability to look at completely "alien" worlds and relationships where you actually end up looking at your own world differently. It can also be a way to look at things that are difficult to look at in their original context. I keep thinking of the Star Trek episode where two races were at war because one race had black skin on the left side of their face and white on the other, and the other race had the colors reversed. To everyone watching it seemed like such a ridiculous thing to fight about. But if it is so ridiculous, why do white people vilify Black people, etc. It was a very clever way to look at the subject, I thought. If that is what Afrofuturism is all about, it sounds great to me!

As to the question regarding the rights of women, what are we basing our theory's on? I think Beverly is on to something based on the other Nnedi Okorafor books I've read, so if we are going by the author that seems likely! But I tend to go into books not knowing anything and that's true here (except that it happens before Who Fears Death...)

Beverly and Michael,

I had a heck of a time deciding how to word a question about the roles of women. I was interested in what Okorafor said about the Igbo woman in her speech I linked and how universal the needs of women are, so that's where I was coming from. It's perfectly fine if no one has thoughts on this in advance of reading.

Here is my proposed discussion schedule for the book:

Discussion Schedule:

September 5 & 6: Prologue, pages 1 - 6
September 7 - 13: Chapters 1 - 4, pages 7 - 60
September 14 - 20: Chapters 5 - 14, pages 61 - 153
September 21 - 30: Chapters 15 - Epilogue, pages 154 - 232

I hope this will work for everyone!

The Prologue

Which book did you read first?

What was your reaction to the Prologue?

My thoughts:

I read Book of Phoenix first. The prologue seemed like simply a device to introduce The Book of Phoenix, but didn't have much meaning to me beyond that. It made sense to me when I read it but later in the book I kept flipping back to it trying to make more connections. I don't think it is crucial to read Who Fears Death first when it comes to the story of The Book of Phoenix, but the prologue had more interest and meaning to me when I returned to it after reading Who Fears Death. I liked the way the world was described and the short bit about Suneteel and his wife. His discovery of The Great Book in the cave was fascinating, but is a stronger connection to Who Fears Death than to The Book of Phoenix which is where my confusion came into play. I also have to really suspend disbelief when it comes to the computer file transfers with no power source available, but that's a small quibble.

I am eager to hear others' reactions to the prologue. Please let me know if there are any problems with the reading schedule.

Karen Michele wrote: "The Prologue

Which book did you read first?

What was your reaction to the Prologue?

My thoughts:

I read Book of Phoenix first. The prologue seemed like simply a device to introduce The Book of ..."

I have already read Who Fears Death, but I read back in 2011 so details are really fuzzy. It was a library book so do not have a copy to refer to.

I have only read the Prologue in Book of Phoenix.

I thought it was an interesting way to introduce us to The Book of Phoenix.
I do remember a scene (or it may have been more than one) from Who Fears Death about a cave and a bunch of computers (old technology from before whatever happened that made them obsolete).
So, yes I will say that the Prologue did seem like a connection to Who Fears Death.
I too enjoyed Suneteel and his wife and learning about the world they lived and why they thought "disaster" had happened.
I was less concerned about the computers working. Maybe it was because I had skimmed an article recently about batteries being the new energy source of the future.
I thought the gadgets that Suneteel and his wife had were interesting.

I did wonder if it makes people feel better when disaster happens that does not have an explanation (or one isn't provide to people) that they have a belief (religion) where they can place "blame" or explanation.

I am interested in seeing how Nnedi tells the story of speciMen -a word that we all know. I thought it was clever to change the spelling to speciMen and now am interested in knowing how her definition of the word matches up with our knowledge of the definition of specimen.

I should be find with the reading/discussion schedule.

well, of course I read Who Fears Death first, so it was clear enough the prologue was a device to tie this story to the first book. This book provides the pretext for how that world came into existence.

since this book is set in our own future, the battery thing didn't seem like so much of a stretch. I wouldn't mind a few of them right now.

Discussion Open: September 7 - 13: Chapters 1 - 4, pages 7 - 60

Feel free to discuss my question below or any other aspects of these chapters with spoilers allowed:

I was fascinated by Tower 7, the experimentation (on people of African descent), and the environment of the city in our future due to climate change. This quote struck me:

"However, this was Tower 7 where boundaries were both contained and pushed."

How did you see boundaries contained and pushed in the world of Tower 7 and the speciMens?

On Captivity, Rebellion and Power

The dedication reads:

“To the stolen girls of Chibok, Nigeria. May you awaken with the heart of Phoenix Okore and may your powerful flames illuminate your swift journey home.�

Early on in the book, Okorafor establishes Tower 7 as a place of captivity and the captors and creators of the speciMens as “THEM�----- the scientists and other workers who watch the “perfectly contained classified ‘speciMen’�. Phoenix, the accelerated woman, begins to think of rebellion. It is also established early on that most of the speciMens are of African descent, setting up more parallels with a history of captivity and mistreatment.

As Phoenix escapes the tower, she discovers the true meaning of her name and the power she has. In this interview, Okorafor says:

“I know for me, I enjoyed writing her story because she was interesting, driven, full of rage, and adventurous. I love people who truly live life. I love people who push forth even when they are scared, even when the path leads into the darkness. Plus, Phoenix can fly, haha.�

The ability to fly is a powerful mythology of freedom and rebellion in other African American writing and art. Toni Morrison’s Song of Solomonand Faith Ringgold’s Tar Beach () came to my mind as I was re-reading that section. Seeing your world from the sky gives a clarity of vision that you can’t get standing on the ground.
What other parallels and symbols did you recognize in this first section?

Comments on Chps 1 -4

Thanks for the links to the books that uses the mythology of the ability to fly.
Yes, I noticed that theme and but the one that came to my mind was the one surrounding the myth of Ibo's Landing. I think this one came to my mind as it is a myth of hope for those who do not want to endure the cruelty of slavery. Phoenix flew as she did not want to be recaptured.



Another idea that I noticed was the name of Phoenix - and the concept that Phoenix will be reborn and remake herself. I am interested to see how this works out in the story. I enjoyed seeing Phoenix rise from the dirt/dust and sprout her winds and fly away.

The ideas of the Towers being in plain sight, reminded me that horrific things go and in front of our eyes and we chose not to see them as long as it is not us and we will benefit from it.

Thank you for the link to information about the myth of Ibo's Landing. It was the original source I was looking for. I wasn't aware that it was a story directly related to the Igbo people. I used the book mentioned, The People Could Fly: American Black Folktales by Virginia Hamilton, when I taught elementary school music (for 25 years before I became a librarian) and also many of the African music traditions. I was lucky to get to work with musicians like W. K. Amoaku from Ghana, African Songs and Rhythms for Children: A Selection from Ghana for Voices and Orff-Instruments and have always valued those experiences.

The rebirth of Phoenix is a powerful moment in the story and another tie in to legend put into a "futurism" setting, which I agree was another interesting use of flight as a motif.

And, yes, we as a collective people seem to be able to ignore wrongdoing in plain sight as in the Towers right there experimenting and creating "abominations" as you say, Beverly. It is cautionary to read of a future where the dominant culture is still repeating history.

Discussion Open: September 14 - 20: Chapters 5 - 14, pages 61 - 153

In this section, we find out more about the Big Eye, "the definition of arrogance and entitlement" and how they see Phoenix: "I was their tool. I was nothing to worry about or fear. They saw me as they saw the Africans made slaves during the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade hundreds of years ago."

So much happens in this section that speaks to history repeating itself and attitudes of power and privilege are still running rampant in this future, that it leaves me with some feelings of helplessness. The simple fact that the Towers are allowed to exist, experiment and control the world without outcry from society as a whole is disheartening. We'd all like to think that we would stand up against this kind of injustice and stop it, and many of us attempt to at least take a stand against wrong, but then why does it not change? I wish I had an answer.

At the beginning of Chapter 8, Phoenix says, "I am the villain in the story. Haven't you figured it out yet? Nothing good can come from unnatural bonding and creation. Only violence. I am a harbinger of violence. Watch what happens wherever I go." I know that I love the power Phoenix has and I am seeing her as a heroine and a symbol of a woman of strength, but, then she is perpetuating violence even if it is against a greater evil. What do the rest of you think about this? I consider myself a non violent person who believes that there are alternatives to war and fighting, but then I know there is this part of me that loves to read about or watch a movie about a "Phoenix". I guess I'm asking myself when violence might be justified.

Feel free to discuss these points or any other aspects of the book so far that interest you.

well, it's pretty hard to get too upset about taking out Big Eye personnel and taking down the Towers. It's the sort of stuff Mengele would have done had he had the technology. conducting operations without anesthesia, organ harvesting, etc., the Speci-men are not human in any sense but fully owned exploitable and disposable at need as well. The Nigerian Big Eye is interesting though and just about the only one we get to know much about. almost everyone else is pretty faceless.

Yes, agreed, and I like science fiction / fantasy for that very reason. I can definitely get on board with taking out One Eye as you said, George. It's when I think of it as allegory for the real wrongs being perpetuated around us in our world that I find myself wondering when, if ever, a violent response is required. Certainly your Mengele comparison is an apt one. A good book I read recently is about Ravensbruck and the "little rabbits" who were undergoing horrific experimentation. I thought of it a few times when reading about Phoenix.It's YA but you'd never know it. I'll link it when I'm on my computer instead of my phone. Here it is linked:
Rose Under Fire by Elizabeth Wein
I have read a lot of WWII / Holocaust fiction, but never anything quite so specific about the experiments done on women as this one was.

When I was reading this section I was reminded of a discussion in high school where the teacher challenged us regarding a statement that most people consider peace to be the natural state as that is what we want to believe. He said what if war/aggression is the natural state and peace is the unnatural state.

And then history has proven again and again that violence is the only way to bring about change. And violence is also the only way to keep control.

So I feel no sympathy for the One Eyes.

Karen Michele wrote: "Discussion Open: September 14 - 20: Chapters 5 - 14, pages 61 - 153

In this section, we find out more about the Big Eye, "the definition of arrogance and entitlement" and how they see Phoenix: "I ..."

I would agree that one of the points that the author is making is about history repeating itself.

The writing in this section had a underlying simmering anger to me paired with a level of frustration that we (as people) permit these atrocities to keep happening and often against those the controlling group consider less inferior to them. The words to the public is this is for your own good as we need to be prepared for the enemies against the state.

BTW - I am enjoying the line drawings that appear before some of the chapters - I think this is a very nice touch.

Beverly wrote: "Comments on Chps 1 -4

Thanks for the links to the books that uses the mythology of the ability to fly.
Yes, I noticed that theme and but the one that came to my mind was the one surrounding the my..."

Thanks for the link, Beverly! I had read The People Could Fly: American Black Folktales but hadn't seen the historical reference before.

Beverly wrote: "Phoenix flew as she did not want to be recaptured... Another idea that I noticed was the name of Phoenix - and the concept that Phoenix will be reborn and remake herself..."

And in these recent chapters, Phoenix is able to slip through time and rewrite history. I think these are all very powerful fantasy constructs/allegories for escaping/fighting/righting injustice. And it is certainly more fun to have super-powers when trying to fight for justice!

I have finally caught up with the reading, and I have agreed with folks' comments on not being too concerned with the Big Eye casualties, but I have been trying to figure out how I feel about the fate of speciMen. In Tower 7, Phoenix indirectly killed everyone there, Big Eye and speciMen alike, when she caused the Backbone to destroy the tower. (The exceptions were the five escapees we know about - Phoenix, Saeed, Mmuo, Seven, and Bumi.) Later, at Tower 1, there is a different result when she helps the speciMen escape and take down Tower 1 themselves.

So, question 1 - do we feel it is okay that she seems to feel no guilt about all the speciMen that went down with Tower 7?

Question 2 - if we feel better about her actions as an ally to the speciMen in the Tower 1 rebellion, do we feel okay about all those speciMen with unknown powers (and unknown ability to control those powers) roaming free everywhere? Phoenix herself is after all, by her own admission, a weapon of unknown powers, with powers that even the Big Eye didn't predict. Is there a way to balance, on the one hand, the freedom that the victims of the Big Eye's experiments deserve, and on the other hand, any death or destruction that might be caused by free speciMen because of how the Big Eye has created/mutated their abilities?

September 21 - 30: Chapters 15 - Epilogue, pages 154 - 232

Discussion is now open for the end section of the book and the book in its entirety.

I'm glad you are joining in, Michael ---- welcome!

Your Question 1:
There were a few places in the book where I thought Phoenix touched on feelings about what she had done. First at the beginning of Chapter 8 Phoenix says to us, the readers, "I am the villain in the story. Haven't you figured it out yet? Nothing good can come from unnatural bonding and creation. Only violence. I am a harbinger of violence. Watch what happens wherever I go." Then in the Chapter 9 "Villain", p105, after Mmuo says, "You're not a villain" she says, "I am a weapon. I'm a bomb. Isn't that a villain? I'll be doing what I was made for". The she's reunited with Saaed and says, "I was the one who did it. Tower 7 went down because of...". Both Mmuo and Saaed seem to lead her away from any feelings of guilt. I think your question of balance and justification of violence because the system created the problem is something Okorafor is asking us to ponder for ourselves and not really answering for us, but what do others of you think?

I always look for and find parallels when I'm reading, and since I had brought up the justification of violence here and had been thinking about it when reading Between the World and Me, some of Coates comments struck me on this issue as well. I'll post the part I'm thinking of when I find it.

And how about Michael's question #2? I'm still pondering that one.

I also enjoyed the drawings, Beverly, and when I was researching the book, I came across an article about them which I will look for and post when I find it.

Interesting questions.

As I saw the main themes of this book being about colonialism, enslavement, unethical medical experimentation and how these actions can be justified by a few in order for it be acceptable to many. So I often saw the characters through this lens.

I did not find it surprising that Phoenix destroyed those in Tower 7. At this point Phoenix was acting more out of rage from herself. Tower 7 had taken away the one thing that made being there "tolerable". She wanted freedom and in some ways it was a more like a spontaneous action than a planned one. Those who helped her on her quest to freedom in turn could also free themselves. Also an outrageous statement needed to be made to make the "average" person who did not know the true nature of the purpose of the Towers to understand more. At this point Phoenix did not know her powers, the ways of the world, or really have a strategy on what she was doing. She was just trying to "survive" and really did not know what that meant to her at that point.

When I read about them leading the children out of Tower 1 - the thought that came to my mind was the children who were on the front lines in the Civil Rights Movement - how it was the showing of children being knocked by water hoses and being attacked by dogs that "outraged" the normal people to put pressure on others.

I tended to see it more in terms of the Holocaust. During WWII, Jewish leaders asked the Allies to bomb Auschwitz rather than let it continue to operate as a death camp. We refused and the camp continued to operate full blast until it was overrun by the Soviet Army. Was it more moral not to bomb the camp, or to do so and shut it down, knowing that most if not all of the inmates would die in the strike? I don't think anyone could have a clear answer to that.

In any case, the speciMen residents of the various towers were the subjects of horrible experimentation, including actions that were clearly tortuous. It's not even clear why the Big Eye organization chose not to use pain killers on their subjects while cutting them up for spare parts or whatever.

It's also clear that the Big Eye group would prefer to kill the really valuable speciMen rather than allow them to be liberated, partially to hide the truth of what was going on in the towers and partially as many were at least potentially dangerous to the ongoing projects.

So, Phoenix made her own decision on how best to proceed. Was it ultimately the right decision? possibly, but it's hard to say it lacked any justification in any case.

I think your comparisons to the Holocaust are really apt, George, especially the dilemma of bombing the camps to stop the experimentation and what is more moral. I think you're right that there's no clear right answer.

Like all books that I enjoy, this one made me think about issues both in history and in the present day. It also made me think about my own human capacity for violence and when violence is justified.

Because Phoenix won her freedom and was still considered an abomination, I wonder if there's allegory here about fear of the freed slaves and/or just fear of anyone who is different from the majority even if the majority group created the "abominations" in the Tower (or institution of slavery, etc.)?

Yes, agree with the comparisons to the Holocaust which is probably the most well-known of the unethical medical experimentation.

And I also agree that the "leaders" knew more than they wanted the public to know and made decisions based on what was best for their own self-interest.

But I also think that this book is about all of the relatively unknown unethical medical experiments that happen maybe on a smaller secretive scale. It seems too often in our history we have said that is so outrageous that it could possibly be true.

And because the way information can be controlled as illustrated in the story where there was only one copy in one place that needed permission to read and thus could easily be destroyed we are not aware of the situations.

Another aspect I found interesting in this book is that there were people who had some special skill/ability that were taken away by the Big Eye to be experimented on and then enhance that skill/ability.

The examples here were people who lived off the land or at least were in contact with nature.
I wondered if the author was eluding to the pollution we have done to our land by the careless extraction for minerals/fuel and the ability for this pollution to alter DNA in some humans.

I have finished this book and I had to smile at the last sentence which clear connection to Who Fears Death.

I am still unsure if someone asks me which book to read first - I am not sure what to tell them.

For me - I enjoyed Who Fears Death more than The Book of Phoenix.

I think that's true, Beverly. A few years back, a YA historical fiction, The Astonishing Life of Octavian Nothing, Traitor to the Nation, Vol I: The Pox Party by M.T. Anderson was published to much critical acclaim. I thought about that book when reading Phoenix because it was about a boy and his mother subjected to experimentation in Revolutionary War times in Boston. When I looked for research about this kind of medical experimentation, I couldn't find much, but I know M T Anderson certainly based the book on true events from a talk I heard him give. I haven't read The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks, but it looks like a fascinating book, too. Have you read that one?

I was just thinking about the Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks, although not by name as I'd forgotten the title, as her cell tissue lives on decades after her death. They were collected by doctors and researched without ever revealing anything to the family. Of course, we had our own study on the long term effecst of syphillis on black men in Alabama that went on for decades

Karen Michele wrote: "I think that's true, Beverly. A few years back, a YA historical fiction, The Astonishing Life of Octavian Nothing, Traitor to the Nation, Vol I: The Pox Party by [author:M.T. Anderson..."

Yes, I have read The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks and I highly recommend it.

Often times when something is mentioned in fiction and google about it I have found out that it was true.

One of these instances that is most memorable to me was learning that the man considered the father of modern gynecology was a slave holder who used enslaved women for experiments. He was highly praised in his day and of course the enslaved women had no choice be to endure his cruelty. In recent years he has been cited for using unethical practices.

Enslaved men and women were used for experiments and that is just another layer of cruelty for the institution of slavery in the US.

While medical care for blacks especially in the South was dismal, many blacks would not go to hospitals because of the fear of being used as guinea picks.

Here is link to some of the unethical medical experiments in the US.

Karen Michele wrote: "Yes, agreed, and I like science fiction / fantasy for that very reason. I can definitely get on board with taking out One Eye as you said, George. It's when I think of it as allegory for the real w..."

Karen -

I have read Rose Under Fire. In fact I read the first book in the series - Code Name Verity. The author knows how to make an emotional connection to the reader and why she gave details that may push you out of your comfort zone it is still done with dignity.

Many books (especially fiction) do not go into many details as it makes people uncomfortable.

Also those who survived these horrors often did not want to constantly repeat the details - it was just too painful for them.

Thank you for the recommendations and links. I think Elizabeth Wein (Rose Under Fire, Code Name Verity) is one of the best YA authors out there. You also might be interested then in The Astonishing Life of Octavian Nothing, Traitor to the Nation, Vol I: The Pox Party and its sequel The Kingdom on the Waves that I mentioned above. Although not written by a person of color, they were well researched and written for the YA reader as an intelligent human being able to handle sophisticated writing. The lexile scores are 1090 and 1060, which is pretty high. To Kill a Mockingbird, for example, has a 790 score. Sorry if this is too much information. I'm used to having to justify YA as literature.

Karen Michele wrote: "Thank you for the recommendations and links. I think Elizabeth Wein (Rose Under Fire, Code Name Verity) is one of the best YA authors out there. You also might be interested then in [book:The Aston..."

LOL - I have nothing against YA literature but it is just not my cup of tea to read on a regular basis. But I do wish that there were 'YA' books when I was growing up. I went straight from children books to adult books. I envy my grandkids having just great selections.

I have read about the pox experiment but I believe it was NF.

Here is a brand new interview with Nnedi Okorafor: