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Dame Ngaio Marsh is an author whose name has come up quite a bit in our initial discussions. She is another author I remember discovering and loving in my mum's stash of old green Penguins.

More recently, I really enjoyed her autobiography, Black Beech and Honeydew, about her life in New Zealand.

Does anyone have favourites among her books? I remember Artists in Crime as being a good one, but the others have tended to blur together in my memory. Alleyn is an appealing detective.

I have a bit of a love hate relationship with Marsh.

I find her worship of the aristocracy & the idea they should get special treatment nauseating.

& Troy & Alleyn's relationship was frequently nauseating.

But her murders were ingeniously plotted & I liked Fox. & she knew the theatre world so well.

I read a number of her books in the '80s, most of which just put me to sleep. But I did remember, at least the title, Death at the Bar. I recently started reading them again and have started at the beginning. I am only up to #3, The Nursing Home Murder.

Wow, I remember swooning over the Alleyn/Troy relationship when I read these books as a teenager - but maybe they would strike me differently now.

I don't remember anything about the worship of the aristocracy but will look out for it when I reread any of her books! I do remember that she was great on the theatre world and the artistic/Bohemian atmosphere.

& I should mention that a bil of mine had a bit part in a play she directed & said in real life she was an absolutely lovely person

& nauseating was probably a bit harsh! But as a fellow Kiwi I have always found her class consciousness a bit hard to swallow!

�� Ｃａｒｏ�� �� wrote: "& nauseating was probably a bit harsh! But as a fellow Kiwi I have always found her class consciousness a bit hard to swallow!"

I don't remember any overt class consciousness, but that's probably because I was reading them as period pieces and not because it wasn't there. I remember, by the way, my daughters really hating Died in the Wool, because of the yuck factor.

Her books have never portrayed to me an attitude class consciousness for the period of time in which they are set. She probably was a little inclined that way given the time in which she was born in Christchurch, a typically English class conscious town, and an only child to boot. Unusual for those times when families averaged 5-7 children. She did state at one time she considered her parents as 'have nots', but that is a bit hard to believe when she had a college education at a private school for girls - something only afforded by the 'better off' families.

Well we are all going to have quite the debate when we do a group read, aren't we! ;)

�� Ｃａｒｏ�� �� wrote: "Well we are all going to have quite the debate when we do a group read, aren't we! ;)"

I can't wait!

I've just finished Overture to Death by Ngaio Marsh.

As with most of her books she spends a lot of time setting the mystery and characters before reaching the 'action', so it wasn't until around chapters 5/6 that the murder takes place. Her writing style and scene development creates a wonderful atmosphere to an imaginative murder mystery, with entertainment provided by the plotting and manoeuvring of the two village harpies, along with the rest of the stereotypical characters. This portrays everything I enjoy about Golden Age mysteries.

I do have a criticism however, but not against the author or story. I read the e-book version published by one of the leading publishers, HarperCollins. I was not only distracted by, but appalled at the continual editing errors I came across - mintues (minutes), split (spilt), amd (and)... occurring on almost every other page! Come on HarperCollins, I expect a far higher standard from a publisher of such note.

Ella's Gran wrote: "I've just finished Overture to Death by Ngaio Marsh.

As with most of her books she spends a lot of time setting the mystery and characters before reaching the 'action..."

I find it amazing that proofreading seems to have gone by the way-side! Amazing and very, very annoying...

My mother-in-law dug out her copy of Tied Up In Tinsel for me for a Christmas read. Looking forward to it. I read the first in the series earlier in the year. This is number 27 (and was published the year I was born). It will be interesting to see how her style changed over time.

Carolien wrote: "My mother-in-law dug out her copy of Tied Up In Tinsel for me for a Christmas read. Looking forward to it. I read the first in the series earlier in the year. This is number 27 (and w..."

I'm intending to read Tied Up in Tinsel too1 Will probably get to around the second week in December!

That works well for me. Still have a week of year end mayhem to survive and will then be able to start winding down and reading more.

Ngaio Marsh is another author where I read the first few and really enjoyed them, but then stalled. I think perhaps I need to read a whole series in order, otherwise I just get distracted and never come back to them. I did really like the books by her that I read.

�� Ｃａｒｏ�� �� wrote: "Carolien wrote: "My mother-in-law dug out her copy of Tied Up In Tinsel for me for a Christmas read. Looking forward to it. I read the first in the series earlier in the year. This is..."

I read that for a Xmas mystery a few years ago -- a pretty good one as I recall! Enjoy :)

Ella's Gran wrote: "Her books have never portrayed to me an attitude class consciousness for the period of time in which they are set. She probably was a little inclined that way given the time in which she was born i..."

I see it that way, too. And I have to admit that when I read English or British novels of the Victorian or post-Victorian era, I like to see the class distinctions, which were very much real (my family is mostly English, Irish, and Scottish, and I was raised by a Cambridge educated father, though not at all an aristocrat) reflected in the mysteries. For non-class consciousness, I read the American mysteries of Macdonald, Hammett, etc.

But for me, an English novel of the era isn't really English unless it has that class consciousness reflected in it.

Judy wrote: "Does anyone have favourites among her books?."

I'm quite fond of Clutch of Constables, especially the opening chapter. I also like her theater mysteries, especially Opening Night and Enter a Murderer. She was a very well regarded theater director, and her theater novels are very accurate reflections of the theater of her time.

Everyman wrote: "Ella's Gran wrote: "Her books have never portrayed to me an attitude class consciousness for the period of time in which they are set. She probably was a little inclined that way given the time in ..."

That's true, Everyman. If you're going to represent the England of the time, it has to be there. And I like the phrase class "consciousness" rather than class prejudice or class hatred.

Marsh is my favorite mystery author, still reading her books actively I can say that I love the interplay between Troy and Alleyn, and Alleyn and Fox.

I agree that class consciousness was a very real part of life back then and I have an expectation of it, although after the Great War (WWI) it was starting to erode.

If you read A Wreath for Riveria AKA Swing Brother Swing, Alleyn seems very willing to go after the higher classes and to me only displays the social etiquette required for a civil servant in those days. I never feel that he thought them actually superior but maybe I've missed it.

I guess maybe he can't really be truly unbiased since he is from those higher classes but he marries Troy who isn't. Marsh put characters in that believe in the class consciousness (their snobbery that Alleyn was the right man for the job because of his background) but for some reason I feel like that was a gentle poke at it and that Alleyn, Fox and Troy don't believe in them being superior.

This is an interesting idea, now I want to re-read with this in mind!

I agree that any book set in that time period in England has to include class consciousness. And I agree with Faith that Alleyn himself doesn't believe that his background makes him superior or better. It gives him an advantage when he has to deal with those who do think that way, which is used both by him and his superiors.

I like the relationship between him and Troy, so I too like Artists in Crime. I'm also fond of a Clutch of Constables, when we really get to know Troy well.

I prefer the earlier books to the later ones. I just checked, and their publication dates span 1934 to 1982!

Carol �� Blinded by the Light �� GR Background wrote: "& I should mention that a bil of mine had a bit part in a play she directed & said in real life she was an absolutely lovely person"

This is really interesting to know! I know one shouldn't let the character of the author affect one's enjoyment of the books, but for me it does.

I'm just coming to the end of Artists In Crime which I've thoroughly enjoyed. Has anyone got a recommendation for which one I should try next?

My favorite Marsh title is Death in a White Tie. Troy is in it and I like Alleyn's mother.

Ruth wrote: "I'm just coming to the end of Artists In Crime which I've thoroughly enjoyed. Has anyone got a recommendation for which one I should try next?"

I think it depends on how interested you are in Troy, and the relationship between her and Alleyn. I second Ellen's recommendation of Death in a White Tie if you want to see how the romance develops (and it is a very good anyway).

But if you don't mind waiting, I'd suggest going back to the beginning of the series with A Man Lay Dead. By reading all the Alleyn books in order you can see both how he is developed as a character and how Ngaio Marsh changed the way she wrote about him (I think).

HJ wrote: "Ruth wrote: "I'm just coming to the end of Artists In Crime which I've thoroughly enjoyed. Has anyone got a recommendation for which one I should try next?"

I think it depends on ho..."

I agree HJ, I think the most fun is reading the series in order although it is definitely not required. Also A Man Lay Dead is a great book.

Faith wrote: "HJ wrote: "Ruth wrote: "I'm just coming to the end of Artists In Crime which I've thoroughly enjoyed. Has anyone got a recommendation for which one I should try next?"

I think it de..."

I enjoyed it. And I wasn't sure I was going to like Marsh. I'd first tried reading her in the '80s when someone at the office recommended her. At that time she just put me to sleep. But I am enjoying her much more this time around.

HJ wrote: "I think it depends on how interested you are in Troy, and the relationship between her and Alleyn. I second Ellen's recommendation of Death in a White Tie if you want to see how the romance develops (and it is a very good anyway)...."

I think I'm going to go with Ellen's suggestion as I'm really keen to see how the relationship develops.

I actually started a re-read a couple of years ago but stalled because there was one particular book I didn't enjoy and then immediately after that the audio titles just disappeared from my library's Overdrive system. I'd love to do a complete re-read from the beginning at some point.

It would be nice to give Marsh the same attention we are currently giving Sayers. I like reading a series all the way through and do think it makes more sense that way.

I agree - just checked and she wrote 32 Alleyn books published over nearly 50 years, right up to the 1980s, so it would be fascinating to see how the characters developed over all that time, though it would be quite an undertaking!

I just finished one of her later books that I hadn't read before, Black As He's Painted. You can read my review (there are no spoilers):

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

I bought a box of them at the used book sale last year. Even bought one that I already had.

I've made it one of my reading goals to read through the entire Alleyn series, and I'm loving it! I'm currently on #12 "Colour Scheme". My favorite books so far have been the ones in which the majority of the book is spent developing the plot and the interrelationships between the characters, with the murder occurring well after the halfway point and Alleyn not even appearing until maybe 2/3 of the way through. ( I'm a sucker for a psychological mystery). I think it's very interesting to observe how the characters and their relationships are developing book by book, particularly that of Alleyn and Fox. I love their witty, dry banter.

Also, as an American, I'm fascinated by the British class system from the Victorian Age up to WWII (Downton Abbey fanatic here). Marsh's books certainly place more emphasis on the upper class, with the 'downstairs' characters getting little development other than providing alibis, but I adore the depiction nonetheless.

I hate to admit to this (being a New Zealander!) but I have never read Ngaio Marsh. I intend to remedy that his year.

Sandy *The world could end while I was reading and I would never notice* wrote: "I hate to admit to this (being a New Zealander!) but I have never read Ngaio Marsh. I intend to remedy that his year."

Oooohh, one would say shame on you except that you now have the enormous pleasure of being able to encounter Marsh for the first time. So really, it's lucky you!

Yes, lucky you! The familiar is often less compelling than the exotic, isn't it? Luckily, New Zealand via Marsh has always been a lot of ... foreign fun for me!

Of course, relatively few of Ngaio Marsh's books are actually set in New Zealand (only four, I think). The majority are set in the UK, where she lived for several years.

HJ wrote: "Of course, relatively few of Ngaio Marsh's books are actually set in New Zealand (only four, I think). The majority are set in the UK, where she lived for several years."

It's funny, but the NZ-set books are the ones I remember best. I don't think they're necessarily her best ones, but they're more memorable for me.

I read a few of these and enjoyed them quite a bit but plotwise for me, I still find Agatha Christie manages to surprise me the best. I have Died in the Wool on my TBR which I will probably be starting next.

Lady Clementina wrote: "I read a few of these and enjoyed them quite a bit but plotwise for me, I still find Agatha Christie manages to surprise me the best. I have Died in the Wool on my TBR which I will probably be star..."

I actually like this one, but my teenaged daughters didn't...

Karlyne wrote: "HJ wrote: "Of course, relatively few of Ngaio Marsh's books are actually set in New Zealand (only four, I think). The majority are set in the UK, where she lived for several years."

It's funny, bu..."

I reread Colour Scheme, one of the NZ ones, earlier this year. It had been decades since I had read it but the New Zealand aspects were the parts that I remembered most clearly (especially the hot springs and mudpots!).

Just bumping this thread to say I've just come across a news story about how New Zealand novelist Stella Duffy is completing an unfinished novel by Ngaio Marsh, Money in the Morgue. She only wrote 3 chapters of it in the 1940s before abandoning it.

Not sure, but I don't think I've read any Stella Duffy, so I'm not sure what to think about this.

Judy wrote: "Just bumping this thread to say I've just come across a news story about how New Zealand novelist Stella Duffy is completing an unfinished novel by Ngaio Marsh, Money in the Morgue. ..."

I've never heard of her, but as Duffy is an ex-pat that isn't so unusual.

There seem to be a lot of unfinished novels around. Not really sure what I think about other authors getting their hands on some of our favourite GA's works. The DLS's were OK, but not as good as the original, the Poirot pretty dreadful. I haven't read enough Ngaio Marsh to know, but I do wonder whether the authors concerned would be happy about it.

It always feels to me that they are cashing in on the success of noted authors rather than making their own fame. Some write a good story and should try to do original stuff, but others make such a hash of trying to copy someone else, they probably couldn't write a good story of their own anyway.

I think the quality varies a lot, but publishers are sometimes keen to do sequels to get publicity for the original books and increase sales of those too. It would be interesting to know more of the ins and outs of it.

I rather liked the JPW books but it will be a very long time before I get to the Poirot sequels (if ever) as I need to read most of the originals!

Judy wrote: "I think the quality varies a lot, but publishers are sometimes keen to do sequels to get publicity for the original books and increase sales of those too. It would be interesting to know more of th..."
I haven't read very many of those but even Enid Blytons written by other authors were a disappointment even when they weren't too badly done.

Yes, I forgot the Blyton sequels, Lady (shudders!).

I bought a couple once (one was a Secret Seven book) which had Enid Blyton in larger letters on top and a title I'd never heard of thinking it was one I hadn't read- only once I began reading it, I checked back and realised it was by someone else.