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Heather wrote: "Hi, I am Heather and I work at a WWII museum so I see WWII veterans usually on a daily basis.

What I found interesting from the prologue is not that Hanns didn't talk about his WWII experiences or..."

I agree Heather- we learn so much from the everyday lives of everyone- sometimes we take that for granted. The difficulty lies in not having letters or journals sometimes and when people don't share their experiences, which as you say, is common in vets. My grandfather is one and he has gradually opened up about his experiences over the years, especially after his grandkids have told him how much we have learned from his example. It's still hard and we have to respect that.

As far as the discussion question goes- I think perhaps, other than what we have previously discussed about the affects of WWI on the German people, and Rudolph's childhood, etc we may be a little early in the book to know the answer. That being said, I think that somehow we may see how he himself justified being involved in such a horrendous act and position, if the author found such statements.

Wow. This is going to be a fascinating book! The author had me engaged from the Prologue - how exactly do you handle both of your main "characters" in a balanced fashion when one of them is your ancestor and the other is the person who had people of your religious background brutally killed (I'm not ever sure how many - do we know?) Can't wait for the next chapter to learn about Haans.

I'm an engineer, living in New Mexico, and I've always been interested in history. This is my first WW2 book. Being in New Mexico, we're locally very proud of the Code Talkers, and of the sheer brilliance of the team from Los Alamos. We lost one of the Code Talkers last week - very sad.

At work this week we were talking about people who thought we'd never actually gone to the moon. I'm appalled to hear that there are people who thought the Holocaust never happened. I agree with the author that we can never forget that this happened - and we can never allow it to occur again.

I'm glad we have such a diverse group for this discussion. This is going to be a great experience!

It is probably too early to determine the "why" of Rudolf's actions in later life. With that being said, it is possible that since he became disenchanted with religion after the priest's "betrayal", he needed another credo to fulfill him. Nazism and all that it represented may have become his new religion.

@ Kathy - I intend to follow up on this book with her Eichmann book, but not right away. I've also got The Monuments Men: Allied Heroes, Nazi Thieves, and the Greatest Treasure Hunt in History on loan from the library, so that's my next read. After that, I think I'll want a break from WWII.

by Robert M. Edsel

Hello, all. I am a retired history/English teacher (high school level) in central Arkansas. I love history, any history! Right now, I am "stuck" in WWII and enjoying the book and the discussion.
I agree with you, Jill, when you say that Rudolf may have used Nazism to fill his inner need for a faith of some kind. I read somewhere recently that one of Hitler's "gifts" was his incessant talking. Maybe the vocal storm that Hitler's minions were subjected to filled some of that void?

I agree with you, Jill. Too little to go on yet, but it's possible that Rudolf's attachment to religion was more an attachment to the priest (a father figure?) rather than a deep spiritualism or religious belief. Disenchantment seems to have followed quickly on the heels of what he saw as the priest's betrayal.

Hi I’m Helga- I am from South Carolina and am very excited to be reading this book. I have a fascination with reading history and especially WWII books mainly due to the influence of stories from family members and the experiences during this war. My father was an American soldier at the Battle of the Bulge and liberator of the Concentration Camp, Dachau, under General Omar Bradley. He only recently started talking about the war at age 91. My grandmother was German as was my mother who lived during the bombings as a very little girl so she remembers when the Nazis came to take over their home. They were not sympathizers of the Nazis as my Mothers father went to fight on the French side and was killed by the Nazis. I have many stories from her from the German side and from my father the American soldier.
I have found the Prologue and first chapter very interesting and am anxious to get more involved with this book. I can also understand some of Rudolf’s religious experiences having had uncles that were priests during this time. And my own uncle Pater Sebastien was killed and taken to the Concentration Camp. Baden-Baden looks very much like the town near Frankfurt where I was born. Small towns are very close knit and everyone knows everyone and everything that goes on.
I think that this early in the book I can see a small hint of Rudolf’s childhood that leads me to believe in the horrors he would commit later in life and that begins with the bigotry and fanaticism of his father. I am very anxious to read further into what makes him believe in the Nazi ideology.

Bentley wrote: "Welcome everybody -

Discussion Question:

One of the ten commandments is "Thou shalt not kill."

How did Rodolf Hoss with the religious background that he had as a child ignore all of those reli..."

Hi Bentley -

From the Crusades on (and before) the ten commandments failed to work in this regard.

I would assume that maybe Rudolf (and some other Germans) did not put the Jews in a "humanity" category but I think we will see as we progress.

Maybe he saw himself as Eichmann saw himself as a clerk of sorts carrying out orders. This was part of the Arendt view of Eichmann in the end.

All, great posts - keep it up and do not forget that the author is with us and post your questions that you might have for him on the Q&A thread for Thomas.

/topic/show/...

Vince wrote: "Maybe he saw himself as Eichmann saw himself as a clerk of sorts carrying out orders. This was part of the Arendt view of Eichmann in the end."

I've just been listening to a historian from the Yad Vashem museum who makes a very good case against Arendt's view. Eichmann and Hoss may have been bureaucrats within the Nazi system, so it was their job to come up with more efficient ways to kill, and both of them did it. "Carrying out orders" was an excuse that could work for lower level Nazis, but not commanders like them.

Tomi wrote: "Rudolf may have used Nazism to fill his inner need for a faith of some kind. I read somewhere recently that one of Hitler's "gifts" was his incessant talking. Maybe the vocal storm that Hitler's minions were subjected to filled some of that void?"

According to the book The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements by Eric Hoffer, everyone who joins a mass movement does it to fill an inner void. The question then becomes what kind of mass movement to join. Some movements build people up, and some destroy. Many do both. Nazism propped up the Aryans while pushing down the Jews and everyone else. Everyone likes to be on top, which is why Nazism appealed to so many people.

by Eric Hoffer

Discussion Questions: When did Hitler become anti-Semitic and why were the Nazis so intent on committing atrocities against the Jewish people?

What do you think was the genesis of this distorted way of thinking?
And why did "normal folks" like Rudolf Hoss who seemed to have a normal childhood adopt these distortions and carry out their policies.

Was there anything in this chapter which would present any clues to the future mindset of a Nazi or is it still a mystery?

One other question to ponder - what is it about all of the "isms" which seems to promote or foster "fanaticism and zealotry"?

The anti-Semitism and militarism of Germany was much older than Nazism. Pogroms had gone on for centuries. The people of Eastern Europe were a ripe audience for Hitler's message. And all those young boys like Rudolph fighting in World War I made for a generation of killers.

Hi Vince, let me just jump in here, if you don't mind.

Hannah Arendt's argument was not that Eichmann, and by inference, Höss, were following orders and therefore could be excused. Quite the contrary, she argued that they 'surrendered their thinking' to those that they followed, and that because this was very much an active choice, they are totally responsible for their actions and must therefore be held accountable.

I also would recommended the documentary "Hannah Arendt". If you go to the last 7 minutes of this film there is a brilliant lecture that Arendt gives to her students in which this is discussed. You can see it here


- Thomas

Thank you Thomas - please feel free to jump in at any time on any of the threads. We do not mind at all - in fact we encourage it and an active discussion.

Salutations fellow Goodreaders! My name is Harry, and when I learned of this work (through this site), I went out and bought a copy. The Third Reich and especially the Holocaust have been of considerable interest to me for some time. This book is about a man and a place that in my opinion need to be studied as it hopefully will give us a better understanding of the animal known as "man". There are three other works this group should also be aware of when enjoying this very good work. Here they are

Kressel wrote: "Tomi wrote: "Rudolf may have used Nazism to fill his inner need for a faith of some kind. I read somewhere recently that one of Hitler's "gifts" was his incessant talking. Maybe the vocal storm tha..."

Hoffer's book is excellent and I can only guess this is accurate in Rudolf's case. Religion appears to have been forced on him by a father with whom he did not appear to have a great bond. Then the priest betrayed him on top of that. The void appears to be filled, in his case, within a military framework and not a faith framework.

Bentley wrote: "Discussion Questions: When did Hitler become anti-Semitic and why were the Nazis so intent on committing atrocities against the Jewish people?

What do you think was the genesis of this distorted..."

I don't think there is a rational answer to this question. It has never made sense to me, and all answers appear to be some sort of a rationalization. I do not understand it.

When did Hitler become an anti-Semite?...I think Hitler's anti-Semitism is rooted in a longstanding tradition of anti-Semitism, undercurrents of which had been strengthening for some time in Germany, and more broadly, in Europe. The worst of people is exposed in the worst of times, and the interwar period of Germany certainly provided fertile ground for economically distressed people to give into their latent prejudices and gravitate to a movement that promised a better future for them individually. Based on the first chapter, there is not much to distinguish Hoss from a whole host of other Germans who shared similar experiences. Far too many Germans found themselves supporting Nazi ideology, but I'm hopeful that in subsequent chapters we learn more about whether Hoss appears to have made conscious choices, or allowed himself to be swept up into the Nazi party.

Hi All

Please feel free to add books to the bibliography thread related to the topic. You can access it with this link: /topic/show/...

Be sure to cite a book as per the group rules: Book cover, author photo, author link.

Harry, the books you mentioned should look like this:

by Rudolf Höss
by Deborah Dwork (no photo)

Greg wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Discussion Questions: When did Hitler become anti-Semitic and why were the Nazis so intent on committing atrocities against the Jewish people?

What do you think was the genesis o..."

I agree Greg. As Kressel stated in post #63, anti-Semitism has a long history in Europe and not just in Germany. So being an anti-Semite was common but it became even more overt as one of the principles of the Nazi credo, It was not considered wrong or unacceptable to be an anti-Semite.

Hi, my name is Michele and I live in Arizona. I am a linguist, history lover, and enjoy video games, among other things. I have been by interested in WW II since high school, and find that generation of people fascinating. I really feel that as much evil as the Nazi regime propagated, there was just as much good ( see Tom Brokaw's two books THE GREATEST GENERATION I & Ii- sorry not citing correctly I will look up how to do that ASAP). At any rate this is my first discussion, though I have read other titles suggested by the group.

My first impressions of the book are mostly positive. I thought the quote from Deuteronomy was a very appropriate way to preface the most important reason for writing a book of this type, "that we might not forget." I also enjoyed the prologue, as many of you did, and find it amazing that no one knew that Hanns was a Nazi hunter. I understand for the individuals involved how difficult it would be to talk about the horrors of war, but at the same time have a thirst to know what people then thought and felt. I feel that the lessons we can learn from these people and their involvement in historical events will always be relevant.

Regarding the discussion question, I find it highly ironic that someone who was meant to be a priest (our dreams for ourselves are not always those of our fathers), and who was raised as a religious person in his very early life could grow to become a mass murderer. I have found personally that even though I and my siblings were raised as religious people, not all of them are now, as adults. My point being, that our youth shapes us, and I think normally defines our core values, it does necessarily set our paths as adults in stone. It seems that Rudolph was still for the most part a child when he first went to war and had some life altering experiences.

Hoss seems to have experienced religion being forced upon him by his father. The priests betrayal wounded him deeply fueling his distrust thus his turning away from religion. With what we know so far, the information is sketchy on what made him turn to the dark side (speculation at this point). Hoss obviously thought very differently, sadly. I'm sure more info will be given in understanding his thought processes. Hopeful we get a good deal of psychological info to figure out what went horribly wrong with Hoss. As the saying goes...you're not born bad, you learn it. We shall see if this is true in this instance.

I also found the prologue and the first chapter of this book very interesting. At this point, it is still somewhat of a mystery to me as to why Rudolph became a Nazi. However, a couple of things stand out as possible early clues as to why he eventually made this choice. One clue, as others have pointed out, is being exposed to death at such early age. Another early factor was being around a father who was a fanatic and a bigot.

Discussion Question:

Now write down this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them. And when many calamities and disasters come on them, this song will testify against them, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants.

Deuteronomy 31:19 and 21

This is how Thomas Harding began his book - what did this extract mean to you after you began the first chapter and read the Prologue.

A few members commented on the above, but there may be various interpretations - what was your sense of the extract and how do you think it relates to the book and the story which will unfold or to the Holocaust as a whole?

Discussion Topic:

If you could have counseled Rudolf Hoss as a child as a psychologist for example - what kinds of things would you have discussed with him - based upon the first chapter of the book and what was told to us about his life/personal experiences in childhood.

Do you think that it might have made a difference?

Pretend you know nothing of what is to become of Rudolf in his adult life or anything about Adolf Hitler or the Nazi party.

Rudolf’s anti-semitism was very much in tune with the German population and has been around for a very long time going back to the origins of the Catholic Church.
As Daniel Jonah Goldhagen stated in his book entitled Hitler’s Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust, � that anti-Semitism was so ingrained in the entire German people that not even the ordinary Germans were spared that irrational hatred." Anti-semitism is rampant again today in much of Europe. The Catholic Church also played a large part as Pope Pius XII refused to make a public stand and commit itself to saving Jewish lives during Hitler’s Holocaust and was consistent with the Church’s historical indifference to Jewish suffering. Pius XII was Pope of the worldwide Catholic Church from 1939 until 1958, and was the first foreign dignitary to reach an accord with Nazi Germany after Hitler took power.

My former employer, historian Rabbi Berel Wein, recommended that book, but I'm not sure I could bear it.

Helga I do appreciate your post - here is how the citation should look -
by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen

There are various positions on what Pope Pius XII did do behind the scenes and there are even some movies which depict his actions in the background. But of course everybody has their opinions whether the actions on the part of the Pope were enough and clearly the world and maybe even the Pope in this case should have done more. You can see how complicated things are in the Ukraine or in Syria or the genocide in Africa or even historically with the Armenians - in all cases the world should have done more and did not. Yet when folks are queried even in this country if they want to go to war or have an open conflict over any of the above - clearly the answer was no. So it makes it difficult to right wrongs with these factors. Even FDR should have done more.

It was an intense book to read but it really hit it right. I know from experience when I married my husband and converted to Judaism, I had to endure alot of criticism and prejudice and disapproval from family members from Germany. I have friends who experienced bigotry in Europe as well. So I believe Rudolf found it easy to be anti-semetic and easy to blame the Jews for everything. I'm anxious to read further how life shapes Rudolf.

To add on to Bentley's comment above- Lynne Olson's book, Those Angry Days, examines the interventionist vs. isolationist debates and conflict in the US from 1939-41 quite well. William Manchester's second volume in his bio of Winston Churchill does a superb job of chronicling the appeasers and foot dragging in England and parts of Europe prior to the invasion of Poland. There are others as well, but I've recently read these two and consider them excellent overviews

by Lynne Olson

by William R. Manchester

Good additions. Also The Conquerors:Roosevelt, Truman and the Destruction of Hitler's Germany, 1941-1945, Michael Beschloss, casts an interesting light upon Roosevelts's concealment of what America knew about Hitlers's war against the Jews and his foot dragging on saving refugees.

byMichael Beschloss(no photo)

Here are two of my favorites, both written by Orthodox Jewish survivors:

by Pearl Benisch (no photo)

by Maier Cahan (no photo)

The first is about the students of the original Bais Yaakov Teachers' Seminary, the first formal educational institution for Jewish women. The second has a bit about the forced march out of Auschwitz, which is discussed in a later chapter of Hanns and Rudolf.

The book noted below, although a history of the SS, gives some clues into the minds of those, like Rudolf Hoss, who thought nothing of genocide and why they might have developed that attitude. But it does not provide the answer, if there is an answer.

by Adrian Weale (no photo)

Thanks to all of you who are citing books. My list of books is growing. I'm particularly interested in Jill's suggestion regarding the possible motivations of those involved in genocide, which is naturally abhorrent.

As delighted as I am with all of the postings of other books, we do have a thread for that called the Bibliography and it would be helpful in order not to impact the discussion to post all books on that thread.

Here is the link once again: (Bibliography)

/topic/show/...

What happens when all of these side bars take place is that the discussion questions are lost in the shuffle and the discussion is interrupted - please keep these threads reserved for the discussion, the bibliography is open for all of you to add books and make comments about those adds with citations and the glossary is for other information that you might like to add.

So let us get back to discussing the Prologue, Chapter One, or anything else from ix - 17 and/or any of the discussion questions/topics or anything else that relates to "this book" and "these pages".

All of the posts have been very interesting - but let us just place them in the proper locations and not disrupt the discussion flow.

Thanks all,

Jamie wrote: "Hello everyone. My name is Jamie Gilbert. I love all things history, but WWII holds much of my interest due to the fact that my grandfather was a POW in WWII after his plane was shot down. My fa..."
The moment of his first kill struck me too. Also he is so young. Adolescence and the power of guns can be dangerous. The image in the book is indelibly imprinted.

It's somewhat difficult to probe the behavioral origins of someone like Hoss, mainly because of the era involved. Unlike now, there wasn't necessarily an excuse for every negative behavioral trait (bad parents, too much gluten in the diet, TV, etc.) and the intimate details of everyone's personal/family business was not readily advertised; we're left guessing. Sometimes "descent" and intelligent people do end up doing stupid and very bad things.

I wonder how Hoss interacted with other kids when he was young. Was he a take charge/independent type or a person that followed others?

Group mentality often leads to participation in violent acts like rioting, looting, etc. and sometimes doing bad things presents a thrill that can only be replicated or exceeded by escalating the activity ... Drugs use, robbery, rape and murder included. At this point, I'm not so certain that Hoss' life wasn't too much different from other German males of that era. World War I destroyed Germany in so many ways, it seems natural that many young men who survived the war were disillusioned, angry, desperate and desensitized to death/killing ... Easy pickings for a charismatic leader with a plan to avenge the misery they experienced. I tend to think Hoss was a by-product of the time ... Germany lost the war, was blamed for it and made to suffer because of it. So, I don't necessarily think chapter 1 indicates he was evil in any way.

The are just the rambling thoughts going through my head (and it's hard to post using an iPad). While it's easy to look back 75 years and try to explain behavior, we're still only guessing.

Hi I'm sherry, I love history, and I've enjoyed three such discussions on this site in the past year. I teach acting and direct theatre. Because I teach acting I'm a great fan of Anton Chekhov, Constantine Stanislavski, and Russian history. My parents met in WWII in U.S.Navy medical corps. I spent the first 10 years of my life in a neighborhood built with the G.I. Bill. Quite often the neighbors gathered in the alley in the center of the block around a big drum fire and shared their war experiences. This experience left a deep impression on me.

Hello all! My name is Kristie, and this is my first discussion. I'm glad I stumbled upon this group while searching for my next book to read, and that my local library had the book available just as this book discussion was starting!

My favorite history teacher from high school always said that "history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes." I think that's a true statement, and we have so much to learn from history that we can prepare for/analyze present-day "rhyming" events.

The book really has me intrigued so far. I felt like it must have been a lonely childhood for Rudolf, and I was disappointed to read about the betrayal in trust by the priest.

I'm looking forward to reading more!

Some great posts from all of you - just keep musing Dachokie and all - sometimes it is fun to think aloud and post what you are thinking as you read.

I do think so far that Hoss was just a normal boy with similar dynamics to other boys his age who did not grow up to become the Kommandant of Auschwitz. But as you read further you may begin to see how he fell into the mindset that what he did was alright and that loyalty and adherence to duty or mission was paramount no matter what the personal cost. Of course that is no excuse for what he did at all.

Folks, this initial intro (prologue and chapter 1) give three important insights to hold in mind when digesting the balance of the book. They are; Rudolf has two significant things take place in his life; he is betrayed by his religion and he kills another human being; Hanns does not brag about his capture of Rudolf, contrary to what is considered his personality.

Harry wrote: "Folks, this initial intro (prologue and chapter 1) give three important insights to hold in mind when digesting the balance of the book. They are; Rudolf has two significant things take place in hi..."

Good points! Two men who go against their usual practices, as it were.

Discussion Topic (Fathers and Sons):

It is always interesting to talk about the relationship of a father to their son and the impact that relationship may have had on the son's life. We also learned that Rudolf was a loner who did not share his problems - "I dealt with all of these difficulties by myself".

Rudolf Hoss states: (regarding the death of his 40 year old father)

"I do not remember whether I was particularly affected by that loss. But I was still too young to see all its far-reaching consequences. And yet my father's death was to set my life on a course very different from the one he had wanted it to follow."

He was 14 years old at the time of his father's death - and to me that is odd that he does not remember (in retrospect) how he was affected by his father's death yet was more deeply affected by the priest in the confessional. Does that appear genuine and if it does what does it say about young Rudolf or the elder Rudolf who is writing the commentary. Could Rudolf have been looking for the father he had lost in other influential men? And was Rudolf's honing in more on the confessional incident just a cop out or an excuse for a break from his own religious background?

When reading these passages I found it an odd juxtaposition of events and their relative importance. For me the confessional incident would have been a non starter and the death of a father (everything).

Bentley wrote: "Discussion Topic (Fathers and Sons):

It is always interesting to talk about the relationship of a father to their son and the impact that relationship may have had on the son's life. We also lear..."
I agree with you about the confessional being of lesser importance than the death of a parent. I wonder if the priestly problem may have been more important to him because he had planned to go into the priesthood. It seems that age 14 is a time when the death of a parent would be much harder to deal with. Children that age are usually going through so many physical changes that the loss of the father would cause all kinds of drama. Perhaps Rudolf, as an adult, feels shame about his reaction and tries to hide it under a cloak of indifference?

Bentley wrote: "Discussion Topic:

If you could have counseled Rudolf Hoss as a child as a psychologist for example - what kinds of things would you have discussed with him - based upon the first chapter of the bo..."

Not enough information has been shared at this point to explain Hoss and his future behavior. I'm sure much more occurred, hopefully the next few chapters will reveal more of his root cause of such evil. At this point, Im uncertain counseling would have made a difference, his background details are too sketchy for me to answer with certitude.

Linda, as I told you before - this is the thread where you can find the links to all of the threads including the Q&A thread for Thomas.

/topic/show/...

Here is the link to the Q&A with Thomas thread where I have moved your question.

/topic/show/...

It is interesting to compare the different childhoods of Hoss and Alexander.

I agree with Melinda. There really isn't enough info to explain Hoss's future actions. All we know is the kidnapping, his introverted demeanor and the whole religious situation. Maybe there was other things like abuse or neglect that may have contributed. Maybe something later will contribute to his future actions, but not in the first chapter.

Just one example - If a child has been kidnapped by gypsies - (even if that was the only event) - it might be a good idea to have him discuss the experience and his fears with a professional - possibly some of the other situations that the boy was facing might have surfaced including his home life, the lack of human connection with some of his family members and some of his disappointments with trust and authority figures. There are some things that the author described which may have indicated that the course of the young boy's life might have been altered with some positive intervention but of course it is a hypothetical situation. More information on Rudolf may help everyone be more conclusive - but maybe the opportunity for intervention might have passed. All of us look forward to reading more and finding out more about the two protagonists.

I think the kidnapping at age 5 would be much more traumatic than the tattling priest. I think without professional help, the fear of being taken again, general safety issues, and being able to trust anyone would be very hard (blaming his parents even though there was nothing they could do to prevent the incident may have occurred).