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This is our discussion of the contemporary science fiction novel...

Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky
(2015, Winner of Arthur C Clarke Award))

I'm about halfway through this one. Since it was on my eReader I took it on my trip but found it's not the type of book that lends itself well to be read in short random bursts. Unless I'm not the only one finding it hard to really get into the story, especially the human storyline. Though I do find how Tchaikovsky extrapolated spider evolution as to how they communicate and how they interact with the world was well done.

I read this last year, and loved it as an unapologetic space opera. I just started reading it again for this discussion.

Right from the start (chapter 1.1 :) Tchaikovsky gave a little wink by naming the spacecraft directing humanity's uplift program Brin 2. Because David Brin is the SF king of uplift stories. (We should read & discuss his Hugo & Nebula Award-winning Startide Rising some year :)

Far enough in the future that humans can freely modify genetics and travel to the stars (via sub-light speeds).

Dr. Avrana Kern is an interesting character with which to start the novel. Narcissistic ("Kern's World") and maniacally focused on her achievement of uplifting simians on a newly terraformed planet (how easily she dismisses the work of actually creating a terraformed planet with completely self-sustained ecosystem.) She definitely wants to play god, if not be god.

And definitely a "first to the lifeboat wins" personality :)

Not your likable protagonist, though her over-the-top manner is written in an almost comedic style, almost a parody of the type. (view spoiler)[And, she isn't the protagonist for long. :) (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 2.1

Tchaikovsky hits us with some temporal sleight of hand. The Old Earth, the one Dr. Kern was from, apparently vanished in an apocalypse brought on by the conflict between the gene-tinkerers and the Non Ultra Natura Luddites.

A New Earth civilization has arisen, a lot like the old civilization, impoverished, and cherishing the technologies left behind by their distant ancestors. And they've used that tech to go haring off into space again.

That makes it a bit like all those epic fantasies whose worlds are built upon the wreckage of some vanished Old Ones' glorious civilization.

I thought it amusing that after all Dr. Kern's ambition for uplifted monkeys, on the New Earth's space ark Gilgamesh (apparently they have a lot of Old Earth's literature), Holsten Mason uses "monkey work" as his favorite pejorative to tasks beneath his intellect.

I am not a fan of spiders, and I never found myself sympathizing with the many Portias and their colleagues, but I thought the whole uplifting nanotech idea was interesting. Were the spiders part of the original terraforming, or were they stowaways on the monkey ship (which I thought had burned up on entry)?

Rosemary wrote: " Were the spiders part of the original terraforming, or were they stowaways on the monkey ship (which I thought had burned up on entry)?..."

I think the entire ecosystem of "Kern's World" were implanted to mimic Earth's, with the omission of monkeys. Based on this, it appears most of the species seeded on the world were gene-tweeked so the magical nano-virus would ignore them:

"Kern’s experiment called for monkeys, and she ensured that the green planet’s chosen would suffer no competition from close cousins. The vertebrates that the monkeys were intended to interact with were designed to reject the virus. They have changed hardly at all.
Nobody considered the invertebrates, the complex ecosystem of tiny creeping things intended to be nothing more than a scaffolding by which the absent monkeys would ascend."

So I would say the spiders (and other insects) were part of the designed ecosystem.

I found it interesting that the uplift nano-virus enables Lamarckian evolution. Jean-Baptist Lamarck postulated that a parent could pass acquired characteristic & knowledge to their offspring. The nano-virus enables Portia & Co. to pass or trade "Understanding" to neighboring nests, as well as their own offspring.

G33z3r wrote: "I found it interesting that the uplift nano-virus enables Lamarckian evolution. Jean-Baptist Lamarck postulated that a parent could pass acquired characteristic & knowledge to their offspring. The ..."

I thought that interesting too. Basically taking the idea that many animals are born with instincts on how to function (like spider mothers don't teach their offspring how to spin webs, they just "know" from the moment they hatch) and then extending that on being able to pass new knowledge to the next generation (after all some spider had to be the first to figure out how to spin a web, then pass that along to other generations to improve upon), and even pass knowledge around to your friends.

I kind of got the impression that passing knowledge around within the current generation was achieved by leveraging the DNA of the nanovirus to rewrite the DNA of an already living spider so it becomes built-in rather than say downloading information into the brain/memory of the spider as is a common tech in other SF (take Matrix where Neo plugs himself into a machine and learns how to fight, etc)

There are even precedents for this in apes however - the new field of epigenetics describes how an experience of an individual will have repercussions all down the family line not just the children and they don’t know how far. And these are more or less permanent changes to the expression of the genes affected!

Chapter 2.5: All These Worlds Are Yours

I love this chapter. Begins with the title, a spot-on nod to Clarke 2010. (One of the Bobiverse novels made the same play last year.) So much interesting stuff going on in what is basically a confused conversation.

The Gilgamesh get's its first look at Kern's World. The Earth they left is such a mess, their reaction to the green is "unhealthy".

A prolonged, high-tension conversation with the Brin 2. First, a simple automated system. Then the Eliza/Kern hybrid ("Eliza" was a computer conversation simulator system from the late 1960s. I wonder how Tchaikovsky chanced on it, but I love it.) With the voice of Kern the Madwoman underneath ("You're not human, you're monkeys; and you're not even my monkeys."). Linguist Holsten trying to translate everything, with a few interesting mis-chosen synonyms slipped in.

If this was an epic fantasy, it's the quest meets a wizard from the Ancient Ones scenes.

I love Lain: "I'm Engineering. We don't do ideas."

I notice Tchaikovsky employs an interesting and subtle shift when moving between points of view. In chapters on the Gilgamesh, he uses 3rd person subjective on Holsten Mason as the protagonist. It's human society, so he presumes we feel well-informed. In chapters on Kern's World, he uses 3rd person omniscient, focused on the Portias, but providing additional human, scientific and historical perspective to the narrative, so as to better explain the tech behind arachnid society.

Tchaikovsky enjoys playing with the gender-rols of spiders (in which females usually eat their mates)

It is a mark of how far her species has come, that this is the only openly acceptable time when killing a male is considered appropriate. It is, however, quite true that packs of females � especially younger ones, perhaps newly formed peer groups seeking to strengthen their bonds � will descend to the lower reaches of the city and engage in hunting males. The practice is covertly overlooked � girls will be girls, after all � but overtly frowned upon.

And later...

It is a mark of how far her species has come, that this is the only openly acceptable time when killing a male is considered appropriate. It is, however, quite true that packs of females � especially younger ones, perhaps newly formed peer groups seeking to strengthen their bonds � will descend to the lower reaches of the city and engage in hunting males. The practice is covertly overlooked � girls will be girls, after all � but overtly frowned upon.

Until eventually Fabian decides he wants right to life.

Tchaikovsky re-uses the same names for spiders over many generations. He called his spider protagonists Portia because they are jumping spiders, latin name portia labiata
Has anyone deduced why the names Bianca, Fabian and Viola for the secondary cast ?

G33z3r wrote: "Has anyone deduced why the names Bianca, Fabian and Viola for the secondary cast"

They are all Shakespearean characters? Though not all from the same play but I could see starting from Portia the other names might naturally come to mind.

I had to put this book aside for a few days as I'm pretty sure that reading about giant intelligent spiders was going to lead to some freaky dreams while I'm still feverish from my cold :)

Andrea wrote: "G33z3r wrote: "Has anyone deduced why the names Bianca, Fabian and Viola for the secondary cast"

They are all Shakespearean characters?..."

I looked through a lot of lists of spider types looking for something that might match with Portia, to no avail. (Though since they are are supposed to be portia labiata, I'm not sure what sense it would have made if I'd found matches.

When I put all 4 names into a search engine, Shakespeare was the only thing that came up (other than this book:), though the point isn't obvious (Viola is a main character, Bianca secondary, and Fabian totally obscure.....) I can think of more obvious Shakespearian names.


Andrea wrote: "I'm pretty sure that reading about giant intelligent spiders was going to lead to some freaky dreams while I'm still feverish from my cold..."

Nah, these are cute & cuddly spiders.

Get well soon.

This book was certainly the first ( and probably only) time I teared up at the bravery of a spider......

Rachel wrote: "This book was certainly the first ( and probably only) time I teared up at the bravery of a spider......"

I like what the book does with the spiders, in trying to create a society. It emphasizes the 3d nature of their world. I like some the phrases, like "measuring legs," and one of the Portias trying to view ants without be "arachnocentric", and the comment that "males can't keep their feet still", meaning they gossip a lot (because spiders communicate via vibrations in the webbing caused by their feet.)

I also loved the chapter "6.4 Epiphany", in which a Bianca sends an image (cleverly pixels sequenced in a spiral rather than our traditional rectangle scanning pattern), is proud to be the first spider to ever cause "the messenger" to shut up. And Kern finally realizes she's talking to spiders, not monkeys.

Just finished this book. I love Space Opera and really enjoyed this read. Characters were interesting. Human and spiders. I really ended up caring for both species (Kern not so much) and didn’t know how the book could be brought to a “successful� conclusion for me. But the author did just that and blew me away. I thought the role reversals of male and female spiders was interesting and how those roles changed as the years passed.
So many interesting elements in the book and I’m still processing.

7.3 Mainden, Mother, Crone

One of the elements Tchaikovsky touches on but doesn't explore in any detail is the division in the human crew. Not the Guyen / Lain dispute, but another distinction that brought about: the "Tribe". The Gilgamesh was originally intended to transport cargo in cryonic sleep pods, with a few "Key Crew" awakened at key moments to assess the progress & go back to sleep..

Because of Guyen's actions, the ship also ended up as a "generation ship", with people living full lives on the ship, "ship-born". Post-Guyen, the Gilgamesh needed maintenance, as well as completion of some of his enhancements, and so the Tribe was institutionalized, a relatively small group of people living their whole lives on the ship. (Even though the Gilgamesh wasn't designed for long-term habitation.) They are of necessity trained as engineers, disciples of Lain, and live their entire lives in service to the cryo-sleep "cargo".

Alpash sums it up in a brief, impassioned blast at Holsten, pointing out that while Gilgamesh is just a trasnport to Holsten, to the Tribe it's Home.

‘We are of the line of those who gave their lives � all of their lives � to preserve this vessel. That was and is our task, one to be undertaken without reward or hope of relief: an endless round of custodianship, until we reach the planet we were promised. My parents, their parents and theirs, all of them have done nothing but ensure that you and all the other cargo of this ship shall live, or as much of them as we could save. And it pleases you to call us “Tribe� and consider us children and savages, because we never saw Earth.�

‘[Lain] did well when she set down your laws,� [Holsten] murmured.
‘Thank you.� Alpash apparently took this as a validation of his entire culture � or whatever it was that had developed amongst his weird, claustrophobic society. ‘And now at last I get to meet her, here at the end of everything.�

I think that's just a great section, and if Tchaikovsky were inclined, he could make an entire novel from it.

Finished! I must admit picturing spiders in little space suits was kind of cute.

I figured the ending was the only way it could possibly end, but I have to admit I wasn't sure it was actually going to end there the way things were going. I"m pretty sure there was one sentence from Portia's POV that explicitly was intended to make the reader think (view spoiler)[ that what they were injecting them with was supposed to kill them, that their test mammals didn't recover and they were hoping the same would happen to the humans (hide spoiler)]. Interesting dilemma though, do you fight for survival or do you trust the others given your inherent biases and try to share.

OK, I'm only about 10 chapters in but I lose interest every time the spider chapters come up. There's only so much personality they can have. It reminds me of The Bees, which I also wasn't crazy about. I got that they are going to keep evolving. And with the switching back and forth, I'm already confused about what is going on in the human world. Are there 2 groups fighting, Holton's and the mutineers, or is there a 3rd group that the mutineers are fighting and Holton and Lain just got in the way? (I often get confused in space opera, for instance I like the Vorkosigan saga for the characters and interesting world, but I usually get lost somewhere in the plot!)

Robin wrote: "I'm already confused about what is going on in the human world. Are there 2 groups fighting, Holton's and the mutineers, or is there a 3rd group that the mutineers are fighting and Holton and Lain just got in the way?..."

Taking a guess at where "10 chapters" is, I'd guess the mutineers are the awakened colonists Capt Guyen had assigned to the frozen outpost moon where they were supposed to keep an eye on Kern's World. From the colonists point of view, they were part of a larger colonizing project, and didn't care for being assigned to a dead-end outpost. Ship Capt Guyen has made a mental shift from cruise ship captain to military leader, while the selected colonists aren't of that "sacrifice for the greater good" mindset. Holsten is just the translator for speaking to Kern and Lain just the engineer who makes the ship run caught up as key assets in the fight.

Sorry, it is actually Chapter 3. something. I am listening to audio and the chapters are different. But yes, that is around where I am.

There was some discussion of the names, to me the name Eliza is a reference to My Fair Lady. Eliza is a creation of Kern's that goes beyond what was planned.

I had a little game on my ancient Mac Classic (you know one of those vertically rectangular ones with the tiny B&W screen and only 40MB harddrive after an upgrade) called Eliza where you would converse with a virtual psychiatrist. As kids, we had a lot of fun getting it to say ridiculous things by making up stupid names for the "patient" and also picking up on the pattern of it's responses based on the input.

Andrea wrote: "I had a little game on my ancient Mac Classic (you know one of those vertically rectangular ones with the tiny B&W screen and only 40MB harddrive after an upgrade) called Eliza where you would converse..."

Yeah, that's the program I was talking about earlier. The psychiatrist was the most popular personality. I'm pretty sure that's what Tchaikovsky has in mind as conversational mode. The novel is full of geeky references like that.

I just finished this and overall I absolutely loved it. At no point could I root against the spiders and I generally liked all the Fabiens in particular. Is it me, or during the arc with “activist Fabien� were the spiders being shown as being exceptionally long lived? Perhaps approaching a life span comparable to humans?

As an engineer myself, I was definitely in Latin’s corner. I quite liked Holsten and even Karst had my sympathies. The only human characters I didn’t particularly care for were Guyen and Vitas plus Kern, if she counts as human.

The book kept me turning the pages to see what happened yet and in the end that’s what makes a good book for me. In addition, it tackles some issues and gives the reader food for thought. I gave it 5 Stars.

Karen wrote: " I didn’t particularly care for were Guyen and Vitas plus Kern, if she counts as human..."

Vitas is an agent provocateur, or in more modern parlance, a troll. She seems to enjoy stirring up trouble. She goads Guyen into attempting the upload that crippled the ship; and she uses the prisoner's dilemma to advocate for shoot first, ask questions later. Neither is an especially good outcome, yet she somehow manages to hang on as a key crew advisor.

Karst shares Vitas's preference for shooting first, and he's the one who actually has the gun. I suppose that's what he's trained for. "When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." E.g., he's happy to follow Guyen's orders to shoot the surrendered rebels; on the other hand, on a ship with very limited life support, can you afford the resources to keep a bunch of prisoners for life?

Holsten is an interesting PoV because, other than his language talent, he's not very creative and is a just pushed around be events, never shaping them. In that sense, he's "everyman".


Karen wrote: "The book kept me turning the pages to see what happened yet and in the end that’s what makes a good book for me ..."

I'll echo both those thoughts.

I was wondering if Fabian was a reference to Fabianism, as he does advocate and achieve transition from within society rather than overthrowing the existing order.

I have a vague recollection about Viola being introduced as a name for a spider who was introduced as looking like they were playing an instrument?

I have no idea about Bianca.

I really struggled with this book. Half of the book I loved, and half I wish would just go away. Give me a three hundred page book of the spiders and I would've been in heaven. I found the human section quite formulaic beyond the gimmick of waking the guy up periodically as an independent observer who was effectively taken out of time, and it was fairly mind-numbing as a result.

Apparently there's going to be a sequel later this year,
Children of Ruin

(Last year I tagged it as stand-alone, and I'm not taking it back.)

I just read this. If anyone is still around, I had a couple of questions about the book.


What was the crystal that was stolen by one of the first Portias?

Is it scientifically feasible to program specific ant actions with biochemical signals? From what little I understand about ant biology I'd guess it is possible to some extent, but not anything like what it developed to in the book. I guess we're supposed to assume the more complex programmable behaviors must have been enabled by the nanovirus, but this was never stated.

What is an Understanding, exactly? Knowledge contained within the structure of the nanovirus that can then be ingested?

Ryan wrote: "What was the crystal that was stolen by one of the first Portias?..."

It's really just a metallic crystal, probably galena or selenium. Together with the metal the chief/shaman ant uses to touch it, it's what we used to call a cat's whisker, a primitive radio receiver. I made one in my dad's garage about, oh, 60 years ago. It lets the ants, and later the spiders, receive (via direct electric tingling through their bodies rather than converting to sound) the repeating transmission from the orbiting station.

Ah, wow. So without any technology whatsoever it can detect radio signals. Interesting.