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"Cyteen" by C.J. Cherryh
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I'm just finishing re-reading this fairly sizable novel, and I find I've enjoyed it even more the second time around (perhaps because I'd already understood the basics of the futuristic universe.)
I hope you all enjoy it as much as I did, and I look forward to discussing it.
Note: At one point the publisher broke Cyteen up into 3 parts: Betrayal, Rebirth, Vindication. I assume Andreas plans to discuss the entire novel; I do.
I hope you all enjoy it as much as I did, and I look forward to discussing it.
Note: At one point the publisher broke Cyteen up into 3 parts: Betrayal, Rebirth, Vindication. I assume Andreas plans to discuss the entire novel; I do.
G33z3r wrote: "At one point the publisher broke Cyteen up into 3 parts: Betrayal, Rebirth, Vindication. I assume Andreas plans to discuss the entire novel; I do."Back in the 80s, I bought one of those 3 novels, started reading, didn't understand and put it aside.
Now is my first time that I'm going to read the novel as intended and the plan was to read the whole thing, yes.
I know only a little bit about the Alliance-Unionside universe as I read Downbelow Station last year. I think that Cyteen happens after that one.
Andreas wrote: " I bought one of those 3 novels, started reading, didn't understand..."
Was it at least the first one? :)
(Aside: Back in the 70's I found a copy of Farmer's The Lavalite World in a bookstore (Lavalites were big in the 70s :) It was very confusing (the book, not Lavalites). Turns out the first 4 books in the series hadn't been published in the US. After Farmer had won a Hugo for To Your Scattered Bodies Go, the US publisher was suddenly eager to print his work, never mind that it was the 5th book in a series!) It was years later I discovered the predecessor novels. :)
Was it at least the first one? :)
(Aside: Back in the 70's I found a copy of Farmer's The Lavalite World in a bookstore (Lavalites were big in the 70s :) It was very confusing (the book, not Lavalites). Turns out the first 4 books in the series hadn't been published in the US. After Farmer had won a Hugo for To Your Scattered Bodies Go, the US publisher was suddenly eager to print his work, never mind that it was the 5th book in a series!) It was years later I discovered the predecessor novels. :)
Andreas wrote: "I know only a little bit about the Alliance-Unionside universe as I read Downbelow Station last year. I think that Cyteen happens after that one...."
Almost a century after, and not on Pell but Cyteen. Cherryh's Alliance/Union novels all stand alone, as far as I've read (except for Regenesis, which is a sequel.)
I thought I'd offer just a little (non-spoiler) background information on Cherryh's Alliance/Union universe as it applies to Cyteen, as best as I've put it together. (I found it helpful to take notes! :)
It's the 24th century. Earth expanded into the stars, establishing colonies on some less than habitable worlds. There is faster than light (FTL) travel, though it's not instantaneous, so it still takes months to move between even nearby planets. Eventually, colonies became large and self-sufficient and broke away from Earth (Alliance) control. Rejuvenation treatments prolongs human life to maybe two centuries, and artificial insemination and wombs make for custom children, while cloning produces lots of worker bees & soldiers.
Cyteen: Planet colonized by Earth, now center of the Union after armed rebellion from Earth (aka the Alliance.)
Cyteen's atmosphere isn't breathable, so humans live in multiple independent enclosed cities, rather like city-states:
Reseune: Cyteen state specializing in science and technology, specifically cloning and artificial wombs which it uses to increase Union population (and provided soldiers during the rebellion.) Reseune seems like a government and corporation all in one.
Reseune also designs subliminal learning tapes to teach clones specific skill sets and in many cases psychsets (programmed personalities.) This produces azi (artificial zygote insemination), clones psychologically programmed for specific functions. (Unlike CITs, citizens, who haven't had pre-programmed psychsets.)
Most of Cyteen centers on Reseune.
Novgorod: another state of Cyteen, seat of the Union government, specifically the Council.
Planys: a small research facility on Cyteen.
Fargone: another planet in the Union, with areas under control of different Cyteen powers. It's several month's travel from Cyteen. (It's where you get sent when the powers-that-be don't want you around.)
Cyteen is mostly about people and politics, and it might help to have a quick Dramatis personae at the start (the story spans a couple of decades):
Politically, the Union is almost evenly divided between Expansionists, those who want to keep exploring and colonizing new planets; and Centrists, who prefer to consolidate the current Union. The Abolitionists are a third, minor faction who want to put an end to the azi program.
The main character in the novel is Ariane "Ari" Emory, a genius ("special") who combines Einstein with Machiavelli. As the novel opens, she's both the Administrator of Reseune, a member of the Union Council, and leader of the Expansionist. Florian and Catlin are her azi bodyguards/assistants.
Mikhail Corain: leader of the Centrists on the Union Council, and thus Ari's primary political opponent.
Leonid Gorodin: the Defense representative to the Union Council.
In Reseune, where most of the story takes place:
Already mentioned Ariane "Ari" Emory, Reseune administrator & scientist, & her azis Florian & Catlin.
Jordan Warrick is another genius Reseune genetic scientist, one who doesn't get along well with Ari. His azi lover is Paul,
Justin Warrick is Jordan Warrick's genetic son and also a scientist.
Grant is Justin's azi companion, who Justin treats like a son.
Denys Nye is Reseune's head of administration (azi assistant Seely) and Giraud's brother.
Giraud Nye is head of Reseune's security (azi assistant Abban) and Denys's brother.
Did I get that right?
Almost a century after, and not on Pell but Cyteen. Cherryh's Alliance/Union novels all stand alone, as far as I've read (except for Regenesis, which is a sequel.)
I thought I'd offer just a little (non-spoiler) background information on Cherryh's Alliance/Union universe as it applies to Cyteen, as best as I've put it together. (I found it helpful to take notes! :)
It's the 24th century. Earth expanded into the stars, establishing colonies on some less than habitable worlds. There is faster than light (FTL) travel, though it's not instantaneous, so it still takes months to move between even nearby planets. Eventually, colonies became large and self-sufficient and broke away from Earth (Alliance) control. Rejuvenation treatments prolongs human life to maybe two centuries, and artificial insemination and wombs make for custom children, while cloning produces lots of worker bees & soldiers.
Cyteen: Planet colonized by Earth, now center of the Union after armed rebellion from Earth (aka the Alliance.)
Cyteen's atmosphere isn't breathable, so humans live in multiple independent enclosed cities, rather like city-states:
Reseune: Cyteen state specializing in science and technology, specifically cloning and artificial wombs which it uses to increase Union population (and provided soldiers during the rebellion.) Reseune seems like a government and corporation all in one.
Reseune also designs subliminal learning tapes to teach clones specific skill sets and in many cases psychsets (programmed personalities.) This produces azi (artificial zygote insemination), clones psychologically programmed for specific functions. (Unlike CITs, citizens, who haven't had pre-programmed psychsets.)
Most of Cyteen centers on Reseune.
Novgorod: another state of Cyteen, seat of the Union government, specifically the Council.
Planys: a small research facility on Cyteen.
Fargone: another planet in the Union, with areas under control of different Cyteen powers. It's several month's travel from Cyteen. (It's where you get sent when the powers-that-be don't want you around.)
Cyteen is mostly about people and politics, and it might help to have a quick Dramatis personae at the start (the story spans a couple of decades):
Politically, the Union is almost evenly divided between Expansionists, those who want to keep exploring and colonizing new planets; and Centrists, who prefer to consolidate the current Union. The Abolitionists are a third, minor faction who want to put an end to the azi program.
The main character in the novel is Ariane "Ari" Emory, a genius ("special") who combines Einstein with Machiavelli. As the novel opens, she's both the Administrator of Reseune, a member of the Union Council, and leader of the Expansionist. Florian and Catlin are her azi bodyguards/assistants.
Mikhail Corain: leader of the Centrists on the Union Council, and thus Ari's primary political opponent.
Leonid Gorodin: the Defense representative to the Union Council.
In Reseune, where most of the story takes place:
Already mentioned Ariane "Ari" Emory, Reseune administrator & scientist, & her azis Florian & Catlin.
Jordan Warrick is another genius Reseune genetic scientist, one who doesn't get along well with Ari. His azi lover is Paul,
Justin Warrick is Jordan Warrick's genetic son and also a scientist.
Grant is Justin's azi companion, who Justin treats like a son.
Denys Nye is Reseune's head of administration (azi assistant Seely) and Giraud's brother.
Giraud Nye is head of Reseune's security (azi assistant Abban) and Denys's brother.
Did I get that right?
I've read a lot of Cherryh's books but somehow never read Cyteen, so I'm looking forward to this. I couldn't find an ebook copy, so I got the Audible version. Its 36+ hours! I hope I have time to listen to the whole thing this month. ;-)Mike
Michael wrote: "I've read a lot of Cherryh's books but somehow never read Cyteen, so I'm looking forward to this. I couldn't find an ebook copy, so I got the Audible version. Its 36+ hours! I hope I have time to listen..."
A little thicker than her Chanur novels. :)
I've listened to Audible's version, and think it's excellent, but I kept returning to the (rather thick) paperback to take notes to keep things straight. (I am easily confused.)
It's sadly one of many classic SF that have refused to come out as ebook. Silly publishers.
A little thicker than her Chanur novels. :)
I've listened to Audible's version, and think it's excellent, but I kept returning to the (rather thick) paperback to take notes to keep things straight. (I am easily confused.)
It's sadly one of many classic SF that have refused to come out as ebook. Silly publishers.
I read Downbelow Station a few years ago. It wasn't my cup of tea, so I'll pass on this one.
Downbelow Station
Thanks, Geezer, that introduction is very helpful. I just began reading. Cherryh tends to long, dry expositions and I'm not at the point where I have to get back to the novel and continue reading. Let's see how it develops.
Greg, I can see why people have problems with Cherryh - it doesn't feel "modern" any more but more like 70s SF. It is a sometimes dry, technical Hard SF - a little bit like Kim Stanley Robinson. How do you feel about that author?
Andreas wrote: "Greg, I can see why people have problems with Cherryh - it doesn't feel "modern" any more but more like 70s SF. It is a sometimes dry, technical Hard SF - a little bit like Kim Stanley Robinson. ..."
If that's your definition of 70s SciFi, then bring it on.
Cherryh has written in several different styles. Her Chanur novels for example feature the titular feline alien race in a universe of multiple alien civilizations, very old school and quite accessible space opera. And she's done some very traditional fantasy. It's in the Alliance/Union stories that she's gets more serious. (And if you didn't care for "Downbelow Station", "Cyteen" will be more so.)
I will stipulate the first third of "Cyteen" is a little dry, mostly power politics and manipulations by Ari (Ariane Emory). She's got a lot of projects going, and is excellent at bribing, cajoling or threatening to get what she wants. Cherryh introduces Ari as semi-likable, seemingly almost an underdog, and then spends the next 100 pages making her a less and less likable protagonist.
If that's your definition of 70s SciFi, then bring it on.
Cherryh has written in several different styles. Her Chanur novels for example feature the titular feline alien race in a universe of multiple alien civilizations, very old school and quite accessible space opera. And she's done some very traditional fantasy. It's in the Alliance/Union stories that she's gets more serious. (And if you didn't care for "Downbelow Station", "Cyteen" will be more so.)
I will stipulate the first third of "Cyteen" is a little dry, mostly power politics and manipulations by Ari (Ariane Emory). She's got a lot of projects going, and is excellent at bribing, cajoling or threatening to get what she wants. Cherryh introduces Ari as semi-likable, seemingly almost an underdog, and then spends the next 100 pages making her a less and less likable protagonist.
I loved Robinson's Mars Trilogy. For Downbelow Station it was just one of those books where I was forgetting the page I'd just read.
G33z3r wrote: "Cherryh has written in several different styles. "Thanks for the correction - I meant the Union/Alliance novels, her "more serious" work as you say.
Nah, no "definition" for 70s to be found her, just a general gut-feeling. Like Clarke's The Fountains of Paradise, or Rendezvous with Rama, Pohl's Gateway, or Haldeman's The Forever War. Even some social SF from LeGuin.
Of course, there are lots of HardSF to be found in the 80s from Brin, Cherryh, Asimov or Varley. But for me personally it was the decade of Cyberpunk. I know that this reduces literature in that decade to only a fraction. But for me it was that important that everything else like HardSF or SpaceOperas felt backward oriented at that time.
With not "modern" I also mean that it's technology feels older. Look at all those central computers, security chips etc. At least too old to place it in the 90s - so it is more 70s than 90s/00s for me.
Andreas wrote: "Nah, no "definition" for 70s to be found her, just a general gut-feeling....
...With not "modern" I also mean that it's technology feels older. "
Okay, I think I understand. That's true of a lot of older sci-fi that when they imagine the future, it usually extrapolates from the present in terms of technology.
In the case of Cyteen, it may seem odd to have references to "tape", especially in a 1988 novel (digital CDs were pretty clearly the rage by then.) However, Cherryh is sort of stuck carrying forward her Alliance/Union tech from Downbelow Station (1982, which was really when CDs became consumer products and VHS was the new big thing.)
It's interesting how authors of lengthy series get stuck on their future tech (or even basic laws of physics) when things change over the course of writing. Once the author has established what her 2300 future looks like, she's stuck with it :)
(I was going to mention the extrapolation of the Cold War into space as an example of 70s space opera that's become obsolete, but who knows, maybe that will all come round again and in 2024 it will be added to that list of things Arthur C Clarke predicted about the future.)
(By the way, there are still huge data centers � ask Google... or the NSA � and big mainframe supercomputers still used for simulating nuclear reactions or weather systems. Perhaps simulating a multi-generational psychset really does require a lot of computer time. Reseune is the high-tech super-science "Silicon Valley" of the Union, after all. :)
Andreas wrote: "Of course, there are lots of HardSF to be found in the 80s from Brin, Cherryh, Asimov or Varley. But for me personally it was the decade of Cyberpunk. I know that this reduces literature in that decade to only a fraction. But for me it was that important that everything else like HardSF or SpaceOperas felt backward oriented at that time. "
Hmmmm. Well, I can see that cyberpunk was certainly the big new thing in the 80's, though as a percentage it actually turns out to be pretty small. (Much the way post-apocalypse dystopia seems to be the rage right now, even though it's just a tiny percentage of what I've been reading, at least.)
...With not "modern" I also mean that it's technology feels older. "
Okay, I think I understand. That's true of a lot of older sci-fi that when they imagine the future, it usually extrapolates from the present in terms of technology.
In the case of Cyteen, it may seem odd to have references to "tape", especially in a 1988 novel (digital CDs were pretty clearly the rage by then.) However, Cherryh is sort of stuck carrying forward her Alliance/Union tech from Downbelow Station (1982, which was really when CDs became consumer products and VHS was the new big thing.)
It's interesting how authors of lengthy series get stuck on their future tech (or even basic laws of physics) when things change over the course of writing. Once the author has established what her 2300 future looks like, she's stuck with it :)
(I was going to mention the extrapolation of the Cold War into space as an example of 70s space opera that's become obsolete, but who knows, maybe that will all come round again and in 2024 it will be added to that list of things Arthur C Clarke predicted about the future.)
(By the way, there are still huge data centers � ask Google... or the NSA � and big mainframe supercomputers still used for simulating nuclear reactions or weather systems. Perhaps simulating a multi-generational psychset really does require a lot of computer time. Reseune is the high-tech super-science "Silicon Valley" of the Union, after all. :)
Andreas wrote: "Of course, there are lots of HardSF to be found in the 80s from Brin, Cherryh, Asimov or Varley. But for me personally it was the decade of Cyberpunk. I know that this reduces literature in that decade to only a fraction. But for me it was that important that everything else like HardSF or SpaceOperas felt backward oriented at that time. "
Hmmmm. Well, I can see that cyberpunk was certainly the big new thing in the 80's, though as a percentage it actually turns out to be pretty small. (Much the way post-apocalypse dystopia seems to be the rage right now, even though it's just a tiny percentage of what I've been reading, at least.)
At least on Reseune, reproduction seems to be entirely from artificial insemination or cloning. In the case of the former, parental DNA can be mixed as desired. Pregnancy appears universally replaced by the artificial wombs. (Sex seems totally recreational. The concept of marriage seems unknown.)
This seems to have been developed by Reseune initially to speed the growth of the colony (since shipping people up from Earth in large numbers isn't practical and old-fashioned reproduction not much faster.) Then during the Company Wars between Earth and the Union, cloning became a great way to produce lots of soldiers.
Though as I write this, I've become conscious that we really don't know much about the lives of any ordinary Reseune citizens, just the CITs at the highest level of administration and their azi. I get the impression, though, that except for the elite creatives, most jobs are performed by azi.
Azi
The azi are an interesting creation by Cherryh.
Genetically, they are usually clones with predefined physical abilities (though I think occasionally new DNA is mixed in from a selected CITs. (If I recall correctly, Grant includes some of Justin's DNA, which is why Justin considers him a son?)
Azi get the additional treatment of "tapes", which is a system of subliminal entertainment, learning needed skills, and psychological conditioning. (CITs also use tapes, either for entertainment or learning.) This is also attributable to the Company Wars between Alliance and Union, as a means of quickly training clone soldiers.
Azi are classified, I think based on their ability to deal with issues outside their basic conditioning. There's a lot of Huxley's Brave New World in this, having people specifically conditioned for their role in society, especially in classifying azi as alpha, beta, etc.
Interestingly, (I think) it's Justin who is working on a new deep psychset for azi that will give them pleasure from performing their assigned task (as opposed to needing specific "reward tapes".)
The lower level azi seem to have very fragile psyche, and when faced with tasks or situations they haven't been program for, get very flustered, requiring some adjustment tapes or intervention to get their head on straight. (As that goes, Justin is a CIT, and still a giant bag stuffed with neuroses enough for any azi.)
Reseune keeps tight control of its proprietary tape systems, and technically they retain ownership of all azi.
Azi can become CITs, if they are suited to it, by receiving a "final tape", which presumably erases some of the basic conditioning?
The relatively small Abolitionist political faction seeks to eliminate azi, comparing it to slavery. At one point Arianne Emory comments that she thinks azi should disappear as soon as an optimal population level is reached. (Though since she is an Expansionist, the demand for higher population will probably continue. Arianne is a manipulative politician and has a very relaxed relationship with the truth.)
This seems to have been developed by Reseune initially to speed the growth of the colony (since shipping people up from Earth in large numbers isn't practical and old-fashioned reproduction not much faster.) Then during the Company Wars between Earth and the Union, cloning became a great way to produce lots of soldiers.
Though as I write this, I've become conscious that we really don't know much about the lives of any ordinary Reseune citizens, just the CITs at the highest level of administration and their azi. I get the impression, though, that except for the elite creatives, most jobs are performed by azi.
Azi
The azi are an interesting creation by Cherryh.
Genetically, they are usually clones with predefined physical abilities (though I think occasionally new DNA is mixed in from a selected CITs. (If I recall correctly, Grant includes some of Justin's DNA, which is why Justin considers him a son?)
Azi get the additional treatment of "tapes", which is a system of subliminal entertainment, learning needed skills, and psychological conditioning. (CITs also use tapes, either for entertainment or learning.) This is also attributable to the Company Wars between Alliance and Union, as a means of quickly training clone soldiers.
Azi are classified, I think based on their ability to deal with issues outside their basic conditioning. There's a lot of Huxley's Brave New World in this, having people specifically conditioned for their role in society, especially in classifying azi as alpha, beta, etc.
Interestingly, (I think) it's Justin who is working on a new deep psychset for azi that will give them pleasure from performing their assigned task (as opposed to needing specific "reward tapes".)
The lower level azi seem to have very fragile psyche, and when faced with tasks or situations they haven't been program for, get very flustered, requiring some adjustment tapes or intervention to get their head on straight. (As that goes, Justin is a CIT, and still a giant bag stuffed with neuroses enough for any azi.)
Reseune keeps tight control of its proprietary tape systems, and technically they retain ownership of all azi.
Azi can become CITs, if they are suited to it, by receiving a "final tape", which presumably erases some of the basic conditioning?
The relatively small Abolitionist political faction seeks to eliminate azi, comparing it to slavery. At one point Arianne Emory comments that she thinks azi should disappear as soon as an optimal population level is reached. (Though since she is an Expansionist, the demand for higher population will probably continue. Arianne is a manipulative politician and has a very relaxed relationship with the truth.)
Just got my copy from the library, so I'll be participating as soon as I'm finished reading! I ordered it on Aug 26th but for some reason it didn't come in until today >_< I'm looking forward to reading it, it sounds interesting :)
Kati wrote: "so I'll be participating as soon as I'm finished reading!"But you could participate right now :) I've only read 10% and throw out my indigested impressions. Ok, that might not be working for everyone.
Andreas wrote: " I've only read 10% and throw out my indigested impressions. ..."
That's usually my style. :) I believe in just-in-time book reading. :)
About a third of the way through Cyteen, it reaches a minor ´Ú¾±²Ô-»å±ð-²õ¾±Ã¨³¦±ô±ð, after which the story jumps forward about a decade. (It's pretty easy to see where one publisher was able to break Cyteen into multiple volumes.) At that point, you'll probably be ready to talk... :)
That's usually my style. :) I believe in just-in-time book reading. :)
About a third of the way through Cyteen, it reaches a minor ´Ú¾±²Ô-»å±ð-²õ¾±Ã¨³¦±ô±ð, after which the story jumps forward about a decade. (It's pretty easy to see where one publisher was able to break Cyteen into multiple volumes.) At that point, you'll probably be ready to talk... :)
Ariane Emory is Cyteen's main character. She's the administrator of Reseune, a brilliant scientist and a "special".
Cherryh caused me to significantly evolve my impression of Ariane as the story progressed.
I thought initially she came off very sympathetic. The book starts with a few male politicians discussing Ariane's plans, and we immediately get the impression they are conspiring against her. She seems the underdog. We first meet Ariane herself as she's in an aircraft heading to a Council meeting with the aforementioned politicians. In the game of power politics, she seems perfectly capable of holding her own. She no longer seems an underdog.
When we get back to Reseune, we find she's totally in charge. Nobody crosses Ariane. Now she's less sympathetic, coming across as a bit of a bully in her personal life as well as her Administrator role. (view spoiler)
Is it curious to anyone else that Ariane is the only female character of note in the story? (There's Catlin, one of her azi security detail � see a problem, shoot the problem, problem solved Catlin. And Amy, a friend who appears a little later in the story. But the main story is Ariane, Jordan, Justin, Grant, Denys & Giraud.)
Cherryh caused me to significantly evolve my impression of Ariane as the story progressed.
I thought initially she came off very sympathetic. The book starts with a few male politicians discussing Ariane's plans, and we immediately get the impression they are conspiring against her. She seems the underdog. We first meet Ariane herself as she's in an aircraft heading to a Council meeting with the aforementioned politicians. In the game of power politics, she seems perfectly capable of holding her own. She no longer seems an underdog.
When we get back to Reseune, we find she's totally in charge. Nobody crosses Ariane. Now she's less sympathetic, coming across as a bit of a bully in her personal life as well as her Administrator role. (view spoiler)
Is it curious to anyone else that Ariane is the only female character of note in the story? (There's Catlin, one of her azi security detail � see a problem, shoot the problem, problem solved Catlin. And Amy, a friend who appears a little later in the story. But the main story is Ariane, Jordan, Justin, Grant, Denys & Giraud.)
Well, I assume are few hardy participants are still reading through the thick tome? (Or has everyone given up but me? Let us know when you finished the first third at least � you'll recognize the breakpoint when you reach it.)
Union Government
As you might expect from the fact that the Union Secession was called the Company Wars (at least from the Alliance side), the Earth colonies on Cyteen and its allied planets were originally created by Earth corporations.
Reseune's administrator (Ari) is more CEO than Prime Minister, almost an absolute dictator. Pretty much all the other CITs we meet are either department heads or working on a project for a department head. The Administrator is elected, by a vote of the CITs, who I guess provide something like a Board of Directors. We assume the basic infrastructure is supported by azi (though I can't cite direct evidence in the form of quotation on that), and that azi outnumber CITs.
Reseune's economy is pretty much defined as a corporate P&L statement, based mostly on the sale and maintenance revenue from supplying azi to other Union members (especially defense.) The member of the Council of Nine for Science is almost always chosen from Reseune. And even Reseune's powerful department heads and Administrator seem to worry about their budgets.
The head of Defense is also elected, and Defense's base of power seems to be Cyteen Station (the orbital platform that preceded planet-based colonies and serves as the central trading hub for the Union.) I assume the Defense selection is by the CITs of the space fleet. (Most of the common soldiers seem to be azi cannon fodder.)
One of the members of the Council of Nine is called the Citizens representative, which I presume means s/he's elected globally. Also currently from Reseune.
Other councilors are for Trade, State, Finance, Industry,... Rather like a typical national cabinet, except the Union Council lacks an executive head (it has a Chairman for controlling Council meetings but the Chairman doesn't wield much extra power beyond that.)
Union Government
As you might expect from the fact that the Union Secession was called the Company Wars (at least from the Alliance side), the Earth colonies on Cyteen and its allied planets were originally created by Earth corporations.
Reseune's administrator (Ari) is more CEO than Prime Minister, almost an absolute dictator. Pretty much all the other CITs we meet are either department heads or working on a project for a department head. The Administrator is elected, by a vote of the CITs, who I guess provide something like a Board of Directors. We assume the basic infrastructure is supported by azi (though I can't cite direct evidence in the form of quotation on that), and that azi outnumber CITs.
Reseune's economy is pretty much defined as a corporate P&L statement, based mostly on the sale and maintenance revenue from supplying azi to other Union members (especially defense.) The member of the Council of Nine for Science is almost always chosen from Reseune. And even Reseune's powerful department heads and Administrator seem to worry about their budgets.
The head of Defense is also elected, and Defense's base of power seems to be Cyteen Station (the orbital platform that preceded planet-based colonies and serves as the central trading hub for the Union.) I assume the Defense selection is by the CITs of the space fleet. (Most of the common soldiers seem to be azi cannon fodder.)
One of the members of the Council of Nine is called the Citizens representative, which I presume means s/he's elected globally. Also currently from Reseune.
Other councilors are for Trade, State, Finance, Industry,... Rather like a typical national cabinet, except the Union Council lacks an executive head (it has a Chairman for controlling Council meetings but the Chairman doesn't wield much extra power beyond that.)
I'm reading quite slowly these days - not because of the book but due to other projects outside of the literary world :) I don't think that I'll read much else this month and have only read a quarter.After a long exposition, there was a short sequence of action when Justin sent out his Azi Grant and failed. At that time I thought it would read like Downbelow Station but it didn't develop that way. It returned to scheming and politics mostly interrupted by some very personal scenes like drunk scientific dialogues between Grant and Justin or Ari raping Justin.
It is a bit early to classify the literary style. Am I completely on the wrong track if I found something like stream of consciousness similar writing? Not like James Joyce but she stays very tight to her protagonists and only writes what they notice, she doesn't write to inform the reader. This contrasts her meta-information at the start of the chapters. I like that style very much!
G33z3r wrote: "However, Cherryh is sort of stuck carrying forward her Alliance/Union tech from Downbelow Station (1982, which was really when CDs became consumer products and VHS was the new big thing.)
It's interesting how authors of lengthy series get stuck on their future tech (or even basic laws of physics) when things change over the course of writing. Once the author has established what her 2300 future looks like, she's stuck with it :)"
I don't buy this concept of being stuck in past writing. I mean they don't have to. "Trivial" literature like the Perry Rhodan series has to develop it's scientific, political, culturual etc. concepts - otherwise no one would read it after 50s ongoing publication any more.
In Cherryh's case I'd say that she didn't extrapolate enough. It is not that hard that digital tapes and authentication cards won't be the great think some 100 years in the future. It feels more like she pushed some themes like genetic and psychological engineering to a future version and leaving supporting technologies behind.
That's why I stumble over central things like "they need a whole, large tunnel full of tapes of Ari's personality" or "computer took months to collect all of her information" or "we don't know everything about her". I've recently read the short story "The Memcordist" by Lavie Tidhar where th main protagonist travels through the whole solar system some centuries in the future while being watched constantly by millions of followers since his birth peaking on the most emotional scenes. I'd like to recommend these 10 pages as a highly entertaining contrasting read - it is
Andreas wrote: "After a long exposition, there was a short sequence of action when (view spoiler). At that time I thought it would read like Downbelow Station but it didn't develop that way. It returned to scheming and politics mostly interrupted by some very personal scenes like drunk scientific dialogues between Grant and Justin or (view spoiler)...."
I don't think you'll find much action in the rest of the book, up until the final few chapters when more things happen. I don't think I would call the final two thirds all politics and scheming. It has a lot of character development with a fairly specific purpose in mind, although the political scheming is there, too.
(I'm not sure how far you've read, so I don't want to say too much.)
Andreas wrote: "I don't buy this concept of being stuck in past writing. I mean they don't have to. "Trivial" literature like the Perry Rhodan series has to develop it's scientific, political, culturual etc. concepts - otherwise no one would read it after 50s ongoing publication any more...."
I think the ultimate example of "trivial literature" (that phrase is growing on me :) is probably the American mainstream comic book. They come out every month, are in some ways obsessed with continuity, but are burdened by necessarily ageless characters who have been in the real world for half a century or more. Marvel has several superheroes who have met Pres. John F. Kennedy, for example, and are still looking pretty spry for 70-year-old teenagers. Superman has been re-booted in half a dozen eras. (Sooner or later, Clark Kent is going to have to turn into a blogger, because no one will know what I newspaper is. :)
On the other hand, I don't think of authors such as Cherryh or Clarke or Willis or whoever as entirely trivial. Somewhere between Buck Rogers and Capt. Ahab :) So I think for Cherryh, Cyteen is largely stuck with the technology of Downbelow Station.
So yes, if Cherryh was more of a techie she might have extrapolated Moore's law and a similar exponential increase in storage capacity. Or not: Downbelow Station was written in 1982, when the PC was only a year old and Bill Gates himself thought 640kB was all the memory anyone would ever need. if you compare the capability of Ari's Base One to a Windows 2.0 (1987), it's an impressive expert system.
I don't think you'll find much action in the rest of the book, up until the final few chapters when more things happen. I don't think I would call the final two thirds all politics and scheming. It has a lot of character development with a fairly specific purpose in mind, although the political scheming is there, too.
(I'm not sure how far you've read, so I don't want to say too much.)
Andreas wrote: "I don't buy this concept of being stuck in past writing. I mean they don't have to. "Trivial" literature like the Perry Rhodan series has to develop it's scientific, political, culturual etc. concepts - otherwise no one would read it after 50s ongoing publication any more...."
I think the ultimate example of "trivial literature" (that phrase is growing on me :) is probably the American mainstream comic book. They come out every month, are in some ways obsessed with continuity, but are burdened by necessarily ageless characters who have been in the real world for half a century or more. Marvel has several superheroes who have met Pres. John F. Kennedy, for example, and are still looking pretty spry for 70-year-old teenagers. Superman has been re-booted in half a dozen eras. (Sooner or later, Clark Kent is going to have to turn into a blogger, because no one will know what I newspaper is. :)
On the other hand, I don't think of authors such as Cherryh or Clarke or Willis or whoever as entirely trivial. Somewhere between Buck Rogers and Capt. Ahab :) So I think for Cherryh, Cyteen is largely stuck with the technology of Downbelow Station.
So yes, if Cherryh was more of a techie she might have extrapolated Moore's law and a similar exponential increase in storage capacity. Or not: Downbelow Station was written in 1982, when the PC was only a year old and Bill Gates himself thought 640kB was all the memory anyone would ever need. if you compare the capability of Ari's Base One to a Windows 2.0 (1987), it's an impressive expert system.
G33z3r said:"I think the ultimate example of "trivial literature" (that phrase is growing on me :) is probably the American mainstream comic book. They come out every month, are in some ways obsessed with continuity, but are burdened by necessarily ageless characters who have been in the real world for half a century or more. Marvel has several superheroes who have met Pres. John F. Kennedy, for example, and are still looking pretty spry for 70-year-old teenagers. Superman has been re-booted in half a dozen eras. (Sooner or later, Clark Kent is going to have to turn into a blogger, because no one will know what I newspaper is. :)"
I take your point about the possible future irrelevance of Clark Kent's profession. However, I'll point out that the mere fact that the comic-book franchises span vast generations, often rebooting to get out from under old continuities, does not make them of a "trivial" nature-- assuming that any group of people would ever agree on their criteria for triviality or, for that matter, substance.
I'm sorry, but I seem to have mistranslated a fixed expression "Trivialliteratur" to "trivial literature". I don't know the correct one, but maybe something like "Formula fiction", "dime novel", "penny dreadful", "shilling shocker" or simply pulp should come near that expression.
Those are all good synonyms. I'd heard the German expression before but I wasn't sure how pejorative it might be in the original.
Having read the first part of this "trilogy in one book", I come to the conclusion that I really like the style. Especially interesting was Cherryh's literary figure of telling a protagonist's background story ((view spoiler)) by creating clones and recreating their context.
Now onward to the second part!
Andreas wrote: "trilogy in one book"
An interesting quip. I think these days, it would indeed be published as a trilogy (as in fact it was by one publisher.) I guess Lord of the Rings is the obvious prototype of the pre-written trilogy, but I've read several of these single stories that seemed to be completely written by the author but published over three books (Elizabeth Bear's Hammered, The Darwin Elevator, Fortune's Pawn.) All clearly written in one manuscript with the individual books published nearly monthly, each could have been one really thick 900-pager. (As opposed to the author writing one book, publishing it, and then writing the continuation.)
An interesting quip. I think these days, it would indeed be published as a trilogy (as in fact it was by one publisher.) I guess Lord of the Rings is the obvious prototype of the pre-written trilogy, but I've read several of these single stories that seemed to be completely written by the author but published over three books (Elizabeth Bear's Hammered, The Darwin Elevator, Fortune's Pawn.) All clearly written in one manuscript with the individual books published nearly monthly, each could have been one really thick 900-pager. (As opposed to the author writing one book, publishing it, and then writing the continuation.)
Andreas wrote: "Especially interesting was Cherryh's literary figure of telling a protagonist's background story by creating clones and recreating their context...."
Psychogenesis. aka "Mind-cloning". The idea is to re-create an entire human being, not through some "Old Man's War" technology of copying the brain into a new body, but by re-creating as precisely as possible the circumstances of the original's life.
To some extent, Reseune already has this in the Azi. You want a soldier, you clone some of your successful soldiers, and feed them tapes on how to use weapons, obey orders and otherwise be a good soldier. You can crank out as many azi soldiers as you need for your clone war.
But the truly great and creative minds can't be created by tape. So you start with a clone of your original, and then replicate as much as possible the upbringing of that individual.
Reseune's first attempt to re-create a genius was Estelle Bok, the physicist who created faster than light travel. That attempt failed, when Estelle-2 turned out more interested in music than physics.
Reseune, under Ariane Emory, began a second attempt at psychogenesis at its Fargone research station with Benjamin Rubin. As Cyteen begins, the Rubin Project is rather secret, buried in the science budget. (I'm not sure who Rubin's original is or what particular special talent they hope to replicate there.)
But Ariane has begun preparation for a second such experiment, one which is even more secret, even from the Council of Nine.
This gets into the whole nature/nurture discussion, how much of what we are is a product of our genetics and how much is a product of our upbringing, and where in all that is free will?
As a bonus to storytelling, as the psychogenesis clones grow in the second third of Cyteen, they provides a basis for filling in the background of its predecessor. Because unlike the "failed" Bok clone, Reseune feels they have much more accurate information on the originals' background this time around.
As a reader, we can also compare the background of the original to the growth of the clone to explore the differences as well.
Psychogenesis. aka "Mind-cloning". The idea is to re-create an entire human being, not through some "Old Man's War" technology of copying the brain into a new body, but by re-creating as precisely as possible the circumstances of the original's life.
To some extent, Reseune already has this in the Azi. You want a soldier, you clone some of your successful soldiers, and feed them tapes on how to use weapons, obey orders and otherwise be a good soldier. You can crank out as many azi soldiers as you need for your clone war.
But the truly great and creative minds can't be created by tape. So you start with a clone of your original, and then replicate as much as possible the upbringing of that individual.
Reseune's first attempt to re-create a genius was Estelle Bok, the physicist who created faster than light travel. That attempt failed, when Estelle-2 turned out more interested in music than physics.
Reseune, under Ariane Emory, began a second attempt at psychogenesis at its Fargone research station with Benjamin Rubin. As Cyteen begins, the Rubin Project is rather secret, buried in the science budget. (I'm not sure who Rubin's original is or what particular special talent they hope to replicate there.)
But Ariane has begun preparation for a second such experiment, one which is even more secret, even from the Council of Nine.
This gets into the whole nature/nurture discussion, how much of what we are is a product of our genetics and how much is a product of our upbringing, and where in all that is free will?
As a bonus to storytelling, as the psychogenesis clones grow in the second third of Cyteen, they provides a basis for filling in the background of its predecessor. Because unlike the "failed" Bok clone, Reseune feels they have much more accurate information on the originals' background this time around.
As a reader, we can also compare the background of the original to the growth of the clone to explore the differences as well.
I stumbled over the couple of paragraphs about Forty Thousand in Gehenna. It was quite short, ended abruptly, and I wonder if this topic will come up again later. Having read the half of the book, it was too short for me to be of real value. It felt more like an advertisement to sell the novel than anything else.A couple of brief mentionings of Downbelow Station are also embedded, but they were not as direct as the novel above.
Which else interleavings with the Alliance-Union universe did you find and how elaborate were they?
Andreas wrote: "I stumbled over the couple of paragraphs about Forty Thousand in Gehenna. It was quite short, ended abruptly, and I wonder if this topic will come up again later. Having read the half ..."
Gehenna will come up a couple of times in "Cyteen", but it's not a significant plot point.
Gehenna is a rare habitable planet discovered by the Union. Cyteen itself & Fargone permit human habitation, but only indoors, due to mild toxins in the atmosphere. Gehenna is sufficiently earthlike to be inhabited without artificial life support. Defense decided to keep Gehenna a secret, even from the Union Council, and decided to create a colony there. Reseune provided the colonists as specifically engineered azi, with Ari in charge.
The public revelation of Gehenna is a scandal, since Defense and Science kept this secret and acted essentially on their own. It's used politically, and I believe it plays a role in (minor (view spoiler)). Later, it will also be revealed that (minor (view spoiler).)
I haven't read Forty Thousand in Gehenna, so I don't know much more than that.
Not the first time an author has decided to spin off some seemingly minor corner of her universe into a side-series. :)
Gehenna will come up a couple of times in "Cyteen", but it's not a significant plot point.
Gehenna is a rare habitable planet discovered by the Union. Cyteen itself & Fargone permit human habitation, but only indoors, due to mild toxins in the atmosphere. Gehenna is sufficiently earthlike to be inhabited without artificial life support. Defense decided to keep Gehenna a secret, even from the Union Council, and decided to create a colony there. Reseune provided the colonists as specifically engineered azi, with Ari in charge.
The public revelation of Gehenna is a scandal, since Defense and Science kept this secret and acted essentially on their own. It's used politically, and I believe it plays a role in (minor (view spoiler)). Later, it will also be revealed that (minor (view spoiler).)
I haven't read Forty Thousand in Gehenna, so I don't know much more than that.
Not the first time an author has decided to spin off some seemingly minor corner of her universe into a side-series. :)
G33z3r wrote: "Not the first time an author has decided to spin off some seemingly minor corner of her universe into a side-series."In this case it wasn't a Cyteen spinoff but was published in 1983, after e.g. Downbelow Station, Merchanter's Luck, The Pride of Chanur, and the whole Faded Sun trilogy (Kesrith e.a.) etc.
I understand that Cyteen is one of the later elements of her Union-Alliance universe.
Having read a bit more of Cyteen, I stumbled (in the exposition before chapter 3) over the politcal importance of the Gehenna-Gate: It was a heavy hit for the expansionists party and gave a theme for the centralists and abolitionists.
As a side note, my edition has very lovely interior illustrations by , see also . I don't think that you know him because he illustrated very often for German publisher "Heyne Verlag". That was back in the 80s/early 90s. Later, they didn't put illustrations in their titles that often.
Also, cover illustrations of each of the three titles are a great plus, for example The Betrayal.
Andreas wrote: "I have to read the last quarter of Cyteen, yet."
Good to know, since this discussion is pretty much you & me :(
I had a few final spoiler-y things to ad.
Good to know, since this discussion is pretty much you & me :(
I had a few final spoiler-y things to ad.
Well, I've spent September working through most of the Alliance/Union books I hadn't read yet, and I've just finished Cyteen. I enjoyed it overall, although parts were definitely slower going. I think the attention to character and characters' (mostly hidden) agenda kept it from reading "too dry" for me. (I haven't read .KSR's Mars trilogy, but what KSR I've read has seemed a little dry in a different, less people-focused way.)In terms of dated-ness, I thought Cyteen held up pretty well. The Cold War vibe is very much a part of Alliance/Union books, but I didn't think it came out as strongly here as it did in, say, Finity's End. Actually, I thought I got more of a Soviet-Other feel from parts of Downbelow Station than I did from the actual Union and Council politics as portrayed in Cyteen. (Maybe b/c Cyteen deals w/factions w/in factions and there's always a crazier, outsider faction to make politics-as-usual seem normal.) In any case, I felt like there was enough fiction to the politics that they could stand in/model a wide variety of "real world" political and power scenarios. One of the questions the book seems to ask is, "Must power corrupt?"
Also, I thought the focus on epigenetics was pretty forward-thinking. The analog vs. digital tech definitely seems a sign of the publication times (and in '88, I remember cassettes definitely dominating any digital newcomers to the market), but I didn't think the medium of the delivery system was what really mattered in terms of tape tech. I didn't think about the computers being particularly out-of-date; there might still be wait times in a research facility to use a particularly powerful computer (although, after reading Andreas' comment & thinking about how much info they actually had/didn't have on Ari I's childhood, the months-long processing times do seem a bit dated).
Interesting that G33z3r pegs Ari as the main protagonist, as I'd probably have picked Justin (though I think Ari does tend to dominate the last third). I hadn't realized how many Cherryh's books deal w/"damanged men" -- I can name one in pretty much every book b/t Joshua in Downbelow & Justin here -- although one can also make a pretty good argument that Ari is a "damaged woman" character.
Guess I'll save some questions/comments about the very end for now ...
Hillary wrote: "Well, I've spent September working through most of the Alliance/Union books I hadn't read yet, and I've just finished Cyteen. ..."
You are now the group's official expert on Cherryh's Alliance/Union universe. :)
I put the Cyteen sequel, Regenesis, on my pile to books to read (never read it � it was written in 2009, long after the others. I hadn't even noticed its publication. Maybe it will be Jordan's story?
You are now the group's official expert on Cherryh's Alliance/Union universe. :)
I put the Cyteen sequel, Regenesis, on my pile to books to read (never read it � it was written in 2009, long after the others. I hadn't even noticed its publication. Maybe it will be Jordan's story?
Hillary wrote: "Interesting that G33z3r pegs Ari as the main protagonist, as I'd probably have picked Justin ..."
SPOILER WARNING
THIS TOPIC HAS SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT
99% of the following is SPOILER to at least the first half of Cyteen.
An interesting perspective. (view spoiler)
SPOILER WARNING
THIS TOPIC HAS SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT
99% of the following is SPOILER to at least the first half of Cyteen.
An interesting perspective. (view spoiler)
I'm reading 40,000 in Gehenna now (interestingly, the timeline I'm using placed this b/t Cyteen & Regenesis; so far, I'd have tended to put 40,000 before Cyteen) but I'll be reading Regenesis next (and then probably taking a little break from Cherryh). I'll be curious to see what's different ; I don't know who gets more POV time, but it looks like Ari & Justin return as characters and (view spoiler)Do you all have a sense of what Cyteen's platythere are like? I don't really; I'm imagining big, grey cloud-amoeba blobs. They don't figure into the story much, but it's interesting how there's yet another layer of moral dimensions -- is it even ethical for humans to be living on this planet at all? And if it's not, does that matter?
Finished, puh :)I don't know where to set spoiler tags in my review. Just let me start with one which is very obvious right at the start:
Who killed Ari Emory?
You won't find the final answer to this central question in this huge tome.
But other topics like genetics, sexual abuse, or psychology are discussed intensely from different viewpoints. Most central is the broad theme of cloning (or psychogenesis, which is the exact cloning of body and mind) which makes it very relevant for current discussions of that theme. Mix it with lots of political scheming, homeopathic dosis of action, and a very bad tension arc to get this milestone of Science Fiction.
I think the novel would have deserved a far better and more conclusive ending, we shouldn't need to read the far later published Regenesis to collect all the dangling ropes. In fact, the ending reads more like a short story's openness than a novel's closedness - it just stopped, no resolution or conclusion at all. When I said "homeopathic dosis of action", I referred to the first 95% of the novel - Cherryh spared the tension and action completely for the last couple of action. When I saw the end coming, I thought "oh no, it doesn't end, it doesn't end...", and so it did. What a cliffhanger!
Cherryh touches lots of innovative futuristic topics like those human "slaves" called Azis or the concept of psychogenesis to name just a few. Instead of diving deeper into those topics, she concentrates on Ari II's coming-of-age story. I wouldn't say that her world-building was great.
What I liked most about the novel was the innovative literaric figure of telling the story of Ari Emory by using the coming-of-age of her clone Ari II. Speaking of literaric figures, I wonder about her motivation to throw in huge amounts of religious phrases like "good God", "God", "I hope to God", "God knows", "My God" and similarily "hell". This is a sharp contrast to leaving out any discussion of religiosity.
Everything seems to be astonishingly instant as you can see from her frequent use of "sudden" or especially "of a sudden". She obviously tried to mimic the events' flows.
In general, I found the ridiculous amounts of phrases more annyoing than helpful.
The same kind of distracting was an old problem of SF for me: Some of the used futuristic technology isn't valid any more. I don't have a problem with tapes, central computers, and absence of Internet or cell phones in older SF at all. The problem with Cherryh seems to be that she refers to them very often and develops ridiculous projections into the future. Just one example: Why should a huge computer take weeks to find something in the databasis when at the time of writing the start of her Alliance-Union series search algorithms were available on PCs retrieving information from MS Word documents instantly?
I'd have loved to honour the work's complexity but it simply wasn't enough fun for me to give it more than 3 stars. Lots of quite confusing and unmotivating political schemes and discussions lead me to downgrading this enourmous work. On the one hand I can see that people would love it and it really deserved the 1989's Hugo and Locus awards. On the other hand I can also understand why others simply can't finish this slow story.
2 1/2 stars rounded up.
Hillary wrote: "Do you all have a sense of what Cyteen's platythere are like?"I do, because my edition contains lots of interior illustration by John Stewart, and one of them depicts one of those beasts. I didn't find one of those illustrations online, though. I tshows a newspaper article with a "foto" of a human in front of a platythere which is some three times the height (size of a whale, I'd guess), mole's arms and sides showing open ribs. Lots of bubbles on that body.
G33z3r wrote: "Justin is the character most wronged by the original Ari"Not only by Ari but also by Giraud and Dennys. I never got why they had to mistreat the poor guy in such a harsh way. It seems a sadistic side of Cherryh to treat one of her protagonists that way. But there are lots of authors doing similar - I'm just thinking of Robin Hobb's Fitz in Assassin's Apprentice.
Hillary wrote: "I'm reading 40,000 in Gehenna now"I plan to read it as well. It's got lots of prime time in Cyteen and I'm curious about those Azis :)
But I don't think that I'll read Regenesis because I'm not that interested in the murder any more.
I'm kind of jealous of the illustrations, Andreas :-)Regarding the ending, I did want more (I'm definitely against the "draw your own conclusion" ending; every so often in my imagination, I visit Henry James' grave and give him a kick for being one of its progenitors), but I did feel like their was some ending/resolution: I feel like Ari II has gone from guinea pig pawn to being fully in charge of a still-powerful Reseune. Also, she's had the opportunity to *really* betray both Justin & Jordan, instead of just kind of use them, and her decision to be a bit more of a collaborator/partner than a puppetmaster also seemed like the conclusion of a character arc.
I agree we could have learned more about the azi -- how many industries depend upon them economically? how do the azi from Reseune's rivals compare to the average reseune azi? are the Mu-class azi basically bred into brothels the way it sounds? could we actually meet an azi who'd taken the Final Tape? -- but I did feel like she "dived deeper" into this area, particularly in the conversations between Grant and Justin about azi vs. born-man decision making.
SPOILERS
Andreas wrote: "Who killed Ari Emory?
You won't find the final answer to this central question in this huge tome...."
I've seen others fix on this, too. Very few characters in the novel actually seem to care, but that's mostly because Jordan confessed and is pretty generally believed to be the killer. (Interesting concept that a person, by virtue of being a "Special", is immune from punishment, even for murder.) Jordan doesn't seem to protest his innocence much, part of his deal with Denys. Given that the crime is officially solved, it's probable that only Jordan might wonder who (do we actually know Jordan didn't?) Assuming Jordan gave a false confession as part of a deal, it's strangely never seems to speculate on who actually did it or the implications of the murderer still being out there, unknown.
But given that Jordan is "known" to be the murderer, it's no surprise no one it is actually investigating the crime anymore.
For what it's worth, I think Denys. I think he's obsessed with the psychogenesis experiment, and Ari was the only test subject on the docket. Denys seems to feel the psychogenesis program offers a on form of immortality. At one point I believe he asks Ari-2 some question about memory continuity, her connection to the original. He clearly wants it for his brother Giraud (custody of the Giraud clone is one of his negotiating points at the conclusion.)
I am a little fuzzy on Giraud's motive in setting up the posthumous assassination attempt on Ari-2.
Edit: I wrote "Jason" in a couple of spots where I meant "Jordan". Ooops :(
Andreas wrote: "Who killed Ari Emory?
You won't find the final answer to this central question in this huge tome...."
I've seen others fix on this, too. Very few characters in the novel actually seem to care, but that's mostly because Jordan confessed and is pretty generally believed to be the killer. (Interesting concept that a person, by virtue of being a "Special", is immune from punishment, even for murder.) Jordan doesn't seem to protest his innocence much, part of his deal with Denys. Given that the crime is officially solved, it's probable that only Jordan might wonder who (do we actually know Jordan didn't?) Assuming Jordan gave a false confession as part of a deal, it's strangely never seems to speculate on who actually did it or the implications of the murderer still being out there, unknown.
But given that Jordan is "known" to be the murderer, it's no surprise no one it is actually investigating the crime anymore.
For what it's worth, I think Denys. I think he's obsessed with the psychogenesis experiment, and Ari was the only test subject on the docket. Denys seems to feel the psychogenesis program offers a on form of immortality. At one point I believe he asks Ari-2 some question about memory continuity, her connection to the original. He clearly wants it for his brother Giraud (custody of the Giraud clone is one of his negotiating points at the conclusion.)
I am a little fuzzy on Giraud's motive in setting up the posthumous assassination attempt on Ari-2.
Edit: I wrote "Jason" in a couple of spots where I meant "Jordan". Ooops :(
FYI, Andrew Liptak has an artice on the author, on Kirkus Reviews.
Just finished Cyteen. I had to look up psychogenesis and sociogenesis (mentioned somewhere in the book). I absolutely love it when a book makes me take note of words or phrases I want to look up later.Needless to say, this is a re-read of a book I borrowed originally in 2014-ish from my library. I'd recently come to the conclusion it would be better for me to borrow my physical books rather than buy since I really don't have more space for it. Yes, I have a kindle (and Kindle Scribe) but I really miss having and holding an actual book. This coincides with one of my goals of reading all the books listed for her Union-Alliance Story Universe. It will take a while but it'll be fun. Anyway, I decided I'd go back and re-read both Cyteen and Regenesis (just finished Cyteen). It's been a ride and there's a lot of details I'd sort of only half-remembered.
Anyway, it's been a huge 680 page ride from beginning to end and I can't help but wonder with whom the Nye brothers were actually in league with (or as in league with and still be able to serve their own mysterious interests - and I'm fairly sure it wasn't having Ari Jr. actually turn into Ari Senior, or if that is what they started with they should have known better. Even Identical twins aren't exact copies of each other. I'm assuming since this thread is from 2014, it's pretty much a spoiler thread? If not, let me know.
It wasn't till a good deal into the book that it really hit me that they're rather on the conservative side (which makes me wonder how that works with an expansionist view and just what kind of view the other side takes - Moderates and Abolitionists? How are they opposite the expansionist? I'm still a bit fuzzy on those points....hm, I should stop here for now. My tea is getting cold.
deleted user wrote: "Andreas wrote: "I know only a little bit about the Alliance-Unionside universe as I read Downbelow Station last year. I think that Cyteen happens after that one...."Almost a century after, and no..."
Perfectly laid out. :)
deleted user wrote: "Andreas wrote: "Greg, I can see why people have problems with Cherryh - it doesn't feel "modern" any more but more like 70s SF. It is a sometimes dry, technical Hard SF - a little bit like Kim Stan..."Yes, during the course of reading Cyteen (I've finished) I couldn't help but wonder if the rejuve process has some kind of long term effect on the human brain. Centenarian Ari was a bit more on the horrifying side. I sort of wondered if she was marginally a bit psychopathic.
deleted user wrote: "Ariane Emory is Cyteen's main character. She's the administrator of Reseune, a brilliant scientist and a "special".Cherryh caused me to significantly evolve my impression of Ariane as the story p..."
There's also Lao, Strassen....er and I don't recall off the top of my head but they come later.
Gene wrote: "G33z3r said:"I think the ultimate example of "trivial literature" (that phrase is growing on me :) is probably the American mainstream comic book. They come out every month, are in some ways obse..."
Remembering back to the early to mid-80's my family didn't have CD's or DVDs. Hm, or a computer for that matter. We couldn't afford them. So we had the more affordable tape cassette, VHS tapes, and for us, little kids, Atari 2600. I wasn't really aware of things like CDs or DVDs till they were more affordable (mid to late 1990s). Then take into account, a series started before the current technologies the world then becomes an alternate history. Take early 20th Century literature such as 1984, War of the Worlds, Brave New World, Metropolis, etc. They are written way before the tech we have now, but they are still considered classic reads for sci-fi. :)
Also, even with the tech we have now (in regards to the information stored on Ari Emory), a human being is a complex creature encompassing not just the physiological and emotive responses, but their choices and thoughts. Their preferences for one thing or another. And the original Ari lived to be around 120. That's a considerable amount of data they're going to be storing. And still, it will not be completely exact, considering different people influencing her life and not quite the same experiences. That huge space would still be required, most likely.
Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy
Books mentioned in this topic
Assassin's Apprentice (other topics)Regenesis (other topics)
Regenesis (other topics)
Cyteen (other topics)
Cyteen (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Kim Stanley Robinson (other topics)C.J. Cherryh (other topics)
Winner of the Hugo Award for Best Novel (1988)