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Can someone please me that the women get treated better?
(view spoiler)[The reaction of male characters (djinn included) to threaten sexual assault or action against the women characters is really off-putting. Does this ever improve? (hide spoiler)]

My recollection is that they do, but she's also trying to paint a realistic picture of women in that society I think rather than glossing it over and making nicer.

I guess I don't understand complaints like yours. It is a depiction that hold true to reality. Should authors pretend stuff like this doesn't happen?

I think our society is particularly sensitive to these topics now (not saying that is a bad thing) and I do think the Ms. Wilson is handling it very well in the text so far (I'm about 60% of the way through). We need to make sure that we are clear that including it in a story is in no way condoning it.

Kevin wrote: "I think our society is particularly sensitive to these topics now (not saying that is a bad thing) and I do think the Ms. Wilson is handling it very well in the text so far (I'm about 60% of the wa..."

Yea, I'm a big supporter of the current conversation on treatment of woman in popular fiction, but some people take it too far/miss the point.

Though I find it uncomfortable at times to read those parts of this book I think it is important for them to be included. If the author had left it out of the books she would be covering up what is a very real thing. Our culture is very sensitive to these subjects at the moment, which is a great thing, but we shouldn't forget that that is not the case everywhere in the word.

I am sure some of this comes from the author's own experience of living in that area of the world. I traveled in India earlier this year and can relate to some of the ways the american woman is treated in this book.

I think she is handling the subject extremely well and not taking it too far at all.

Eleanor wrote: "Though I find it uncomfortable at times to read those parts of this book I think it is important for them to be included. If the author had left it out of the books she would be covering up what is..."

I think feeling uncomfortable is part of the point too..

Rob wrote: "Eleanor wrote: "Though I find it uncomfortable at times to read those parts of this book I think it is important for them to be included. If the author had left it out of the books she would be cov..."

agreed

I'm pretty sensitive to how female characters are treated in novels and I never felt uncomfortable in this book. The treatment of women felt realistic to a middle eastern-inspired world. I also trusted Wilson's take on it because she experienced it all first hand.

Yeah, though this is a work of fiction, the setting (at least, most of the setting) is not the fictional part per se. It's based on very real parts of the Middle East today/in the very recent past. To be frustrated with the treatment of women is to be frustrated with a hard truth. From what I've read from authors from the Middle East, this is true to some of the conservative (and not even the most conservative) regions.

I don't think the author is sexist, but the male characters certainly seem to be. Especially for Alif, I think this is partly from his culture and partly from his self-absorption.

I struggle with the fact sometimes that the point of view of a character, or even a narrator is not the same as the true beliefs of an author.

I understand that what is being portrayed is meant to be a typical portrayal of gender roles in the Middle East. I was hoping that it was going to improve at least somewhat (I finished AtU last night (view spoiler)[and it doesn't really improve (hide spoiler)]).

I know that the point of some of the chosen books is to challenge us as readers. In the current western culture where there is an active movement to put the onus of stopping rape culture correctly on the shoulders of men, the contrast of an 'acceptable' (or at least culturally accepted) threat of sexual assault as retaliation grates harshly. This presents a barrier to get past to read the book.

It is certainly not the case that this aspect is promoting or condoning this culture. I understand that. It just makes it hard to like 50% of the book's human characters out of the gate.

On top of that, I find Alif to be at insincere (perhaps not intentionally so), hypocritical, and certainly immature in his relationships both with Intisar and Dina. (view spoiler)[When he decides that he loves Dina, I dubiously think, "that relationship will last until he spots another pair of attractive ankles." (hide spoiler)]

There's a bit of a Shakespeare sonnet that comes to mind:

Fair is my love, but not so fair as fickle;
Mild as a dove, but neither true nor trusty;
Brighter than glass, and yet, as glass is, brittle;
Softer than wax, and yet, as iron, rusty:
A lily pale, with damask dye to grace her,
None fairer, nor none falser to deface her.

I think there's a big difference between an author writing sexism into the universe and an author being sexist. The key is in the female characters themselves and how real they feel. Yes, women in the Middle East have to deal with a lot but they also fight against this on a daily basis. There's also a key cultural part that's different. A woman in a job position in Asia is defined by her job, while in the West she is still very much defined by being a woman. It's harder for women there to get to these positions but once they do, they are treated better than Western women.

I don't think that the discussion should be focused on whether we're "overly sensitive" about this in our books. Does Ms. Wilson challenge the sexism? How do her female characters acknowledge it? Or is it a cheap tool used to add maturity and grit?

I haven't gotten to those parts in the book yet, so I'm not sure what's the case.

Hullo! Author here. The lovely S&L moderators sent me a tweet letting me know you were discussing the book and inviting me to come say hi. So hi! This is a fascinating conversation. To speak to some of the points raised: in writing this book, one of the things I wanted to highlight is the way in which the kind of patriarchy practiced in certain parts of the Middle East negatively affects men as well as women--mostly by infantilizing them, sometimes to a rather astonishing degree. When we talk about these societies in western media, we often focus on the ways in which women need to be "rescued"…but when you spend time there, you realize that things are actually a bit more complex. Alif, especially at the start of the book, deeply resents the women in his life, and yet is reliant on them in an almost childlike way. He's not independent. He can't really take care of himself. I give his age as 23, but a lot of western readers have said he reads as 16 or 17, which is about right, maturity-wise. I wanted him to be very much the product of his environment--to have the emotional, social and economic struggles a guy of his age and his position would have in that world. There aren't enough jobs, society is stratified by class, and until you can get a job and prove yourself, you can't get married and be independent. This traps a lot of young guys in a sort of perpetual adolescence, which is where Alif is when we meet him. So yes, he's definitely a bit of a misogynist, though as he gets pummeled by forces banal and arcane (one could easily have titled this book Dina the Unseen), he does grow up in a few crucial ways.

G. wrote: "Hullo! Author here. The lovely S&L moderators sent me a tweet letting me know you were discussing the book and inviting me to come say hi. So hi! This is a fascinating conversation. To speak to som..."

Oh excellent. As someone who works in tech that is a very interesting exploration. I am looking forward to reading the book! Thank you very much for your input.

Cheers!

G. wrote: "Hullo! Author here. The lovely S&L moderators sent me a tweet letting me know you were discussing the book and inviting me to come say hi. So hi! This is a fascinating conversation. To speak to som..."

So great to have the author in the discussion!

Very interesting... Alif's character annoyed me a lot due to his immaturity - which was clearly how he was intended to be portrayed. What I did not realize was that indeed his immaturity was a consequence of the society's structure. That opens up a whole new layer of understanding about the main character!

Thanks a lot Ms. Wilson!

It also indicates that there is a cycle in place of infantilization/dependency creation and resentment/disempowerment between the genders. Yow.

Personally, I'm more bothered by the fact that one of the three major female characters has yet to be referred to by name (fyi, I'm only about half-way through). It's the American woman, and so far, she's only ever been referred to as "the convert". Yes, she's only been with them for maybe a day in-book, but it's still annoying that no one's bothered to ask her name.

I did like it when she snapped at Alif. Which is probably why it bothers me so much that she still doesn't have a name.

My favorite bit was the part (early on searching for Vikram) where Alif says that Dina is almost as good as he is at finding things out, when it's clear from the narrative that she's much smarter than he is. After that I didn't trust Alif's opinion on anything not computer related.

G. wrote: "Alif, especially at the start of the book, deeply resents the women in his life, and yet is reliant on them in an almost childlike way. He's not independent."

I wonder how much this describes the misogyny of the people that were hounding Zoe Quinn recently. The stereotype of the man-child living in their mum's basement is a stereotype for a reason ...

(And thanks so much for posting here G., I thought your book was great.)

Lindsay wrote: "G. wrote: "Alif, especially at the start of the book, deeply resents the women in his life, and yet is reliant on them in an almost childlike way. He's not independent."

I wonder how much this des..."


Sigh. I don't like it being a stereotype period because I am a gamer and a programmer and it doesn't fit me.

But yes, you're right. I've interacted with quite a few people that remind me of Alif. I'm also reading Dune at the same time and find a lot of parallels between his behaviour and characters in Dune. Specifically to Hawat. The Fremen accomplished something his men failed miserably at and his reflex was, "If only we could've trained them! How much better they'd be." Not to mention, Paul's constant musing at how superior he is to his mother who has proved herself time and time again is starting to really get on my nerves.

Lindsay wrote: "I wonder how much this describes the misogyny of the people that were hounding Zoe Quinn recently. The stereotype of the man-child living in their mum's basement is a stereotype for a reason ..."

Yup. It's easy for us to get all high and mighty about how backwards and archaic Muslim attitudes towards women are, yet if you go on 4chan or Reddit, you will see self-professed "Men's Rights Activists" saying things that are at least as bad, and in many cases worse.

"Dina the Unseen"... now that's a title :D

In a way Middle Eastern culture can be shocking and at times alien... I had some friends (all male) and how we differ in opinion on some very basic things can be rather astonishing.

I think a great merit of the book is that by putting us in Alif shoes, it gives us a more "inside" perspective on gender issues in that part of the world/culture. He can be infuriating at times (most of the times) but that doesn't diminish the truth of what he says and thinks.

Would be awesome to read a book like this from a woman's POV.

Julián wrote: "Would be awesome to read a book like this from a woman's POV.
"
You might take a look at The Girl With Borrowed Wings by Rinsai Rossetti. It's more of a young adult romantic fantasy narrated by a teenaged girl, but like AtU, it's set in a fictional Mid-east country.

Sean wrote: "Personally, I'm more bothered by the fact that one of the three major female characters has yet to be referred to by name (fyi, I'm only about half-way through). It's the American woman, and so far..."

I think that may have less to do with her being a woman and more to do with her being a foreigner? But I could be wrong.

Anja wrote: "Sean wrote: "Personally, I'm more bothered by the fact that one of the three major female characters has yet to be referred to by name (fyi, I'm only about half-way through). It's the American woma..."

She's a woman *and* a foreigner. That's two strikes against her. I mean this half in jest and half serious.

I just assumed that the foreigner was the author and that's the reason she wasn't named. Quite literally injecting herself into the work.

Lindsay wrote:"I just assumed that the foreigner was the author and that's the reason she wasn't named. Quite literally injecting herself into the work."

That's an interesting thought!

I think when authors use the real world their main responsibility is to accurately portray it and to not shy away from the misogyny. Like this is a very different discussion than high fantasy, where you can legitimately ask if these fantasy worlds always have to be so misogynistic. So I think in Alif it would be a disservice to have no discussion of sexual violence since that's not how the real world is either.

Personally it hit me in the gut when it was mentioned that Dina was circumcised. Female circumcision is near-universal in Egypt and she's Egyptian so it makes sense of course.

Ending spoilers:
(view spoiler)[
But I was disturbed by the storyline where the best solution for everything was the convert marrying the Jinn and getting knocked up. Here we have Jinn society so it is entirely fictional. For sure caring for mothers and their children is the "good" side of patriarchy but it is patriarchy none-the-less. They couldn't care for the convert when she simply needed help, she needed to be pregnant and the widow of an important man. It probably didn't help matters that this all happened off-stage.
(hide spoiler)]

Ulmer Ian wrote: "I think when authors use the real world their main responsibility is to accurately portray it and to not shy away from the misogyny. Like this is a very different discussion than high fantasy, wher..."

I think there's a fine line between a book portraying sexism and having iffy gender portrayal.

I think the parts that bugged me the most

End spoiler
(view spoiler)[ Was Dina's line, "I was waiting for the man you'd become." I think this is a super harmful concept in general. I see a lot of people in abusive relationships where there is no improvement and no character development. Things aren't as neat and tidy. It felt like Alif was "awarded" Dina for realizing he was being a dick. And I see that quite a lot in fiction. It, hilariously enough, felt quite a bit like the plot of Nick and Norah's Infinite playlist. Boy realizes that the pretty girl he loved was "not a nice girl" and realizes the inner beauty of "ugly nice girl". "Not nice girl" gets punished for not being nice and regrets not being nice to guy protagonist. Now that she can't have him, she wants him, even though before she rejected him. I wished that they didn't have feelings for each other in that regard and could just be friends. Male and female friendship portrayals are a lot rarer and more interesting. (hide spoiler)]

And you're right. The scene you're discussing was a bit weird. I don't even know what to think of it. :S

Paulo wrote: " Lindsay wrote:"I just assumed that the foreigner was the author and that's the reason she wasn't named. Quite literally injecting herself into the work."

That's an interesting thought!"

Wasn't the author pregnant during the writing of the book? The idea is looking better and better.

Ulmer Ian wrote: "I think when authors use the real world their main responsibility is to accurately portray it and to not shy away from the misogyny."
THIS!!!! 1000X over. This was diferent from most books we read for S&L because it is set in present day (or at least circa 2011-12) in a very real part of the world. This isn't Hogwarts, Middle Earth, etc. The fact is that Middle East culture is very classist and sexist, and to write a believeable book in that setting, it must be present. Now, if the book were set in the Year 3000 in the Middle East, I can see there being reason to go away from the realistic portrayal, and would welcome it.

Lindsay wrote: "I just assumed that the foreigner was the author and that's the reason she wasn't named. Quite literally injecting herself into the work."
I got that feeling too, especially when I went back and read her bio and realized she had lived in Egypt after converting to Islam and had been raised in the States.

Anja wrote: "I think there's a fine line between a book portraying sexism and having iffy gender portrayal."

Exactly, it's the difference between the worldview of the characters and that of the narrative itself. If a story features a promiscuous female character who occasionally gets called a dumb slut by guys, that's realistic; but if every promiscuous female character is portrayed as a stereotypical bimbo who's more concerned with clothes and makeup than dealing with important plot issues, that's the author imposing a view upon the universe.

I think Wilson tends towards the former, whereas a lot of the other fantasy we read is in the latter category.

Sean wrote: "Anja wrote: "I think there's a fine line between a book portraying sexism and having iffy gender portrayal."

Exactly, it's the difference between the worldview of the characters and that of the na..."

I find I get really bored though with "realistic portrayals" that don't challenge the worldview. Say those boys calling the woman a slur. Do they get called out for their behaviour? Does the character exist just to add grittiness or is something gained from the interaction?

Do the female characters exist just to be called, "dumb sluts" and then never appear again?

Scott wrote: I know it's a fictional account but it certainly adds a counterpoint to the discussion about why women get harassed on the street and how it has nothing to do with how much, or how little, skin is showing.

This is a really interesting point. I live in a city with a large Muslim population and i was just talking to someone today about how we have noticed how people really disrespect women who have decided to completely cover themselves. We have seen both sides of it, from women forced to wear it to women who have chose to wear it. But in neither situation is it appropriate to talk to a woman who's face you can not see as though they are stupid and can't understand you or ignore them. You are either not respecting their decision or further alienating them.

Eleanor wrote: " is it appropriate to talk to a woman who's face you can not see as though they are stupid and can't understand you or ignore them. You are either not respecting their decision or further alienating them. ."

You also need to be aware that if their husbands are with them then interacting with the woman is also very disrespectful to the husband.

AndrewP wrote: "You also need to be aware that if their husbands are with them then interacting with the woman is also very disrespectful to the husband."
I had no idea! As a woman, should I only be addressing the husband? I would have assumed women talk to women and men talk to men.

I'm actually going to be traveling to UAE soonish (multiple times over next few years) and while they are not as conservative as some/most, as a woman who is a technical leader on my program, I'm a little nervous about fubaring local custom in any way. Don't want to stand out like the dumb American but really don't know much.

What I couldn't understand was (view spoiler)[ Dina's ongoing love for Alif. (hide spoiler)] The abusive-relationship angle was discussed above, and I think that problem is there, but additionally it plays into the "woman is interested in mediocre male person because narrative, even though he offers nothing at all in the relationship." It's a pervasive sexist trope that we see everywhere, even in the freaking lego movie, that suggests men deserve relationships with women simply by existing. Maybe I'm misreading it? Or maybe the limited POV just mislead me.

No, Rob I saw it too. I definitely felt like Dina was a prize for Alif realizing he was an asshole.

Though everyone quotes the Lego movie but I always thought the Lego movie was making commentary that this trope feels like it's written by a 6 year old? Hehe. xD

I had another thought today on why the convert might have no name. Perhaps it's to invoke the type of story where the main characters will have a "savage" with them. I've definitely read books where the predominately white cast has a person of a different race along on the journey and they either don't learn their name or they give them a nickname because they can't be bothered to learn how to correctly pronounce their name. This could be a race flipped version of that trope.

I am not quite halfway done with the book. My take on the convert was more of a cypher of the author herself, being humble by not giving the character a name, but giving a bit of an American perspective on these issues.

G. is also the author for the new Ms. Marvel, who is Pakistani-American. It's fantastic. I mention this because I believe the author is fully aware of the the sexism and overall treatment of women in the setting. Alif is deeply flawed. I'm interested to see how much he grows (if at all) through his experiences!

Caitlin wrote: "I had another thought today on why the convert might have no name. Perhaps it's to invoke the type of story where the main characters will have a "savage" with them. I've definitely read books wher..."

You hit it exactly on the head. My great and largely unrealized hope was that seeing the reverse of the usual trend…the unnamed/underdeveloped POC character whose sole narrative role is to dispense homey wisdom and disappear…would make people think a bit about how deep these tropes can cut. Alas, you are the VERY FIRST person I know of who has arrived at this conclusion. :D

G. wrote: "Caitlin wrote: "...the unnamed/underdeveloped POC character whose sole narrative role is to dispense homey wisdom and disappear..."

Yeah, I didn't see "magic white person where a magic person of color would normally be". I saw "underdeveloped female character supporting the male hero". I was annoyed when I wanted to learn more about her story. I'm *fascinated* with the fact that I had the same annoyance with Alif that I normally associate with whiny young white male protagonists, which suggests my annoyance isn't with the whiteness (which, honestly is a half-formed concept anyway). Maybe it's the entitlement, and the idea that quirky geek girl archetype I still identify with is frequently a trophy for this kind of character.

G. wrote: "Caitlin wrote: "I had another thought today on why the convert might have no name. Perhaps it's to invoke the type of story where the main characters will have a "savage" with them. I've definitely..."

I'm glad to be of service :)

G. wrote: "Hullo! Author here. The lovely S&L moderators sent me a tweet letting me know you were discussing the book and inviting me to come say hi. So hi! This is a fascinating conversation. To speak to som..."

Just finished the book, and I must say one of the things I LOVED is that the main women are no one's puppets. Whatever role they occupy within this brand of patriarchy is by choice, and in their own way exercise an incredible presence of mind and resilience in situations where the male characters seem at a loss. Dina, primarily, and the convert, in her own frantic way, but also, in the background, Alif's mother. Throughout the book I was distracted silly from wondering whatever happened to Alif's mom, because in the little bit that she appeared she made an impact as a seemingly wronged woman who stood resolutely among people that gave her a hard time for being a Hindu and a second wife, etc. Even Intisar, loathful as she became eventually, was revealed to be more cunning and self-serving than wronged and oppressed by patriarchy.

One thing I thought about while reading this book was the contrast between how we tend to view concepts like gender identity versus the contrast of so-called 'traditional' as opposed to non-traditional roles.

What I mean by that is this. A male who feels like a woman trapped in a male body is, by many educated and intelligent folks, given the consideration that he was (most likely) born this way, or that his gender identity is probably due to some other form of hardwiring, and that this is - at least for him - a normal state of affairs. Yet a woman who, at least on the surface, appears to prefer a more conservative and/or traditional role within her culture is - at least some of the time - not given the same consideration. (And less this assertion be taken as some form of misogyny, I would make the same claim as regards men who appear to prefer a more submissive role within the confines of their own relationships.)

Neurologists seem, from what I've been reading, more and more inclined to view a steadily increasing spectrum of human behavior as hard wired, whether genetically or otherwise. In this respect, Dina may simply be acting not according to cultural expectations (which do not appear to be mirrored by her own family, as I recall from the text), but simply because she is acting as the person she feels herself to be.