ŷ������

Welcome to our March 21 group read of The Cornish Coast Murder by John Bude. This was a previous group read, back in the mists of time, so please feel free to search out the earlier comments if you are interested.

Never, even in his most optimistic moments, had he visualised a scene of this nature—himself in one arm-chair, a police officer in another, and between them . . . a mystery.�� So thinks the Reverend Dodd—vicar of the quiet Cornish village of Boscawen and a reader of detective novels—when an actual mystery unexpectedly lands on his doorstep in The Cornish Coast Murder. Julius Tregarthan, a secretive and ill-tempered magistrate, is found at his house in Boscawen, shot through the head—and the local police investigator is baffled by the complete absence of clues. Fortunately for the inspector, the Reverend Dodd is at hand, ready to put his lifetime of vicarious detecting experience to the test.

Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread.

What did anyone think of the ending of this one? I really enjoyed Bude's writing style, and the vicar does some clever detective work.

But I found it a disappointment to have a solution that couldn't really be guessed, and as for the killer - I know he had appeared earlier on, but very briefly. On the plus side, this meant I had forgotten about him since reading the book a few years ago.

You’re right, definitely not “fair play��, and really quite biblical- I think Bude even mentioned “an eye for an eye�� in justifying the motive. I thought it was quite sad, really, and rather maddening that the victim was a right pig, not only messing with his niece’s happiness and finances, but sexually harassing a tenant (they wouldn’t have called it that then, of course), but what an awful man! What a dirty old man!

Yep, cheating! I was *sure* it was the doctor... on the basis that he was the only other character who we knew much about and that he was out on the cliff seeing the woman having a baby that night.

I still don't really understand why there were three shots through the windows so far apart - was it supposed to be because the boat was moving? I thought that the victim would have ducked or moved through instinct when the first two shots came through...

And could the killer really have thrown a handful of gravel from the sea to the window over a wall (I think) if it was so blustery that he couldn't even shoot straight? Hmm!

I enjoyed it as a light read but the plotting didn't really hang together for me. I loved the vicar doing all that stuff with the string and poles though!

Roman Clodia wrote: "Yep, cheating! I was *sure* it was the doctor... on the basis that he was the only other character who we knew much about and that he was out on the cliff seeing the woman having a baby that night...."

The vicar and his string reminded me of the Cheltenham case, where they were drawing the arc of the arrow- I couldn’t picture it, so I was at sea...no pun intended! I agree, though, I enjoyed the characters and writing, but he lost me with some of the murder method discussions, for the reasons RC noted.

Oh yes, of course, the crazy arrow shot across the square into the window!

I was completely lost with the geography of this one with the cliff and the wall and the path and the sea on the same level as the house... argh!

Roman Clodia wrote: "Oh yes, of course, the crazy arrow shot across the square into the window!

I was completely lost with the geography of this one with the cliff and the wall and the path and the sea on the same le..."

That's what I thought. No way that could have happened.

I thought the opening scene with the doctor and vicar and their special "ceremony" endearing. It was interesting how much fun the vicar had playing detective until the end. Reality of murder hit him and it stopped being a game or logic problem....and he never wanted to read detective stories again.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Oh yes, of course, the crazy arrow shot across the square into the window!

I was completely lost with the geography of this one with the cliff and the wall and the path and the sea on the same le..."

Thank goodness, I thought it was just me!🤪

ChrisGA wrote: "I thought the opening scene with the doctor and vicar and their special "ceremony" endearing. It was interesting how much fun the vicar had playing detective until the end. Reality of murder hit hi..."

Yes - I appreciated what a smart, logical, yet innately good person he was, I appreciate that with many of Bude’s characters. Loved that opening scene, how much the vicar appreciated his small creature comforts- made him instantly relatable!

Susan in NC wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "Oh yes, of course, the crazy arrow shot across the square into the window!

I was completely lost with the geography of this one with the cliff and the wall and the path and t..."

Me too. Couldn't picture it either. And the gravel thrown from the boat????? Like in Cheltenham, I just had to take Bude's word for it, but why he had to climb the wall to shoot at the house from the path but from the boat there was a clear shot didn't make sense.

That said, I really enjoy Bude's writing. Just finished The Sussex Downs Murder and am starting The Lake District Murder.

ChrisGA wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "Oh yes, of course, the crazy arrow shot across the square into the window!

I was completely lost with the geography of this one with the cliff and the wal..."

Oh, yay, I have those two to look forward to still!

Definitely similarities with the arrows, I agree!

Chris, I will be interested to hear what you think of The Lake District Murder - I didn't like that one much, as I thought it gets a bit boring, but have enjoyed the other Budes I've read. It is a past group read here if you feel like looking up the threads.

Just finished, and I tend to agree with all the remarks above. The whole business of throwing gravel (previously taken from the victim’s driveway) and shooting from the boat seem more like a novelist’s invention than a plausible line of action. I was all for the perpetrator having walked along the top of the wall.

And I did feel it was cheating to have the perpetrator be such a minor character whose history wasn’t known. One of my tricks for identifying the murderer is to look for a character who’s kind of a vacancy in the center of the action, and this solution defeated my wiles.

All that said, I did like the characters, especially the vicar. I’m not so sure how much I like Bude’s novels, though—the combination of preposterous killing methods and step-by-step procedural feels a little clumsy to me.

It hadn't really struck me how unlikely the gravel and boat ideas were, but having read all the comments here, I have to agree - and I was also lost with the geography! My main gripe, though, was the fact that the killer is not one of the main characters we have been encouraged to suspect.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Oh yes, of course, the crazy arrow shot across the square into the window!

I was completely lost with the geography of this one with the cliff and the wall and the path and the sea on the same le..."

I couldn't see how that worked either. I read this a while ago and I remember little of the plot, just the solution, because it made no sense.

I agree regarding the unlikeliness of the method working. I've filed it with the arrow in last month's book, a giant bottle of champagne, and a poison arrow shot while sliding down a bannister. Authors must have felt a great deal of pressure to be original.

Personally, I've yet to hear a convincing argument to show how art and reality either should be or need to be mixed together. In fact, I'm not sure they have much to with each other at all.
Generally I find I lean towards the views expounded by John Dickson Carr's Gideon Fell as expressed in The Hollow Man:

A few people who do not like the slightly lurid insist on treating their preferences as rules. They use, as a stamp of condemnation, the word ‘improbable��. And thereby they gull the unwary into their own belief that ‘improbable�� simply means ‘bad��.

Now, it seems reasonable to point out that the word improbable is the very last which should ever be used to curse detective fiction in any case. A great part of our liking for detective fiction is based on a liking for improbability.

I think there’s a difference between “probable�� and “plausible.�� I don’t object to improbability in fiction (coincidence and the like) so long as the action makes psychological sense. That’s the whole idea behind realism: it’s not a reflection or representation of reality but it requires the creation of a believable world. In the case of the two Bude books I’ve read, most of the characters are fully believable but their actions are contorted in ways that jar me out of the world he has created.

Abigail wrote: "I think there’s a difference between “probable�� and “plausible.�� I don’t object to improbability in fiction (coincidence and the like) so long as the action makes psychological sense. That’s the wh..."

I agree. I think there is a big difference between 'probable' and 'plausible'. I also like to be able to see the 'opportunity'.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Oh yes, of course, the crazy arrow shot across the square into the window!

I was completely lost with the geography of this one with the cliff and the wall and the path and the sea on the same le..."

A line drawing, even, in both books, could have been very helpful for me.

Tania wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "Oh yes, of course, the crazy arrow shot across the square into the window!

I was completely lost with the geography of this one with the cliff and the wall and the path and t..."

And actually, now that I think about it, all that nonsense about gravel and string and angles seems like filler once the killer and motive are revealed! I mean, he attempts to explain how this killer carried out the crime, even if it’s a confusing explanation, almost like a geometry lesson (at which I was awful!), but then the motive is revealed, and it’s so sad and sordid and very personal and tragic, that it almost makes a mockery of all the leaping on and off the wall...plus, only the vicar and the killer could really know about it.

Sandy wrote: "I agree regarding the unlikeliness of the method working. I've filed it with the arrow in last month's book, a giant bottle of champagne, and a poison arrow shot while sliding down a bannister. Aut..."

Lol!

Abigail wrote: "I think there’s a difference between “probable�� and “plausible.�� I don’t object to improbability in fiction (coincidence and the like) so long as the action makes psychological sense. That’s the wh..."

Thank you, this!

Susan, a line drawing would have been helpful; I ended up picturing a boat with a tower built on top in order for the killer to be able to shoot into the house. Didn't make any sense.

An interesting discussion - and great quote from John Dickson Carr, Colin. I think my main problem with this one was that the killer was such a minor character, but I found it hard to get my head round the murder method.

I think I don't mind the methods being improbable - in fact I enjoy some wildly unlikely methods in GA fiction, including the arrows and the giant champagne bottle Susan mentioned - but with this one I couldn't really picture it, though it was interesting to read about. A pity there isn't a TV adaptation, where I could see it!

At one time there was talk of a Bude series being made, but sadly it didn't happen and that was some years ago now. Maybe some of the vintage British Library mysteries will still get adapted some day.

An interesting discussion, for sure. I think we all expect some implausibility, it goes with the genre. But when the solution seems downright physically impossible, then it does bug me. I think I require a certain logic to proceedings, within the terms of the book.

Abigail wrote: "One of my tricks for identifying the murderer is to look for a character who’s kind of a vacancy in the center of the action"

Me, too, Abigail. That's why I thought it was the doctor - I was so disappointed as I had my eye on him from the start!

He would have been a good candidate!

I think some of these discussions are enjoyable in the way they throw the spotlight on the range of tastes we have and the kind of material we prefer.
With the books by Bude I've read I can't say I've come across anything I'd term implausible - all of the actions have appeared at least possible and doable, and I'm happy for the most part if that's the case. On the other hand, if an author wants me to accept that someone, let's say, leapt across a 30 foot chasm, well I'll be hurling the book down in disgust.
On the whole though, the more unlikely, improbable or downright outrageous and audacious a criminal's methods are, the happier I am.

Tania wrote: "Susan, a line drawing would have been helpful; I ended up picturing a boat with a tower built on top in order for the killer to be able to shoot into the house. Didn't make any sense."

Ok, that’s funny! I agree, though, didn’t make sense as described.

I have just finished this, and agree with those who have referred to the implausibility of the 'method'. I am particularly concerned that neither the killer, nor the police, nor even the author, seem to have considered the tide. This can raise, or lower, the level of the water by 4 to 5 meters twice a day. Is the cliff 15 foot high at low tide (in which case it's practically at the top at high tide), or at high tide? We are told that spray from the sea hits the house during bad weather. Which should have made the cliff path a trifle dangerous ...

It also affects the distance from boat to house, especially if one must keep the angle the same. Did their experiment take place at the same state of the tide?

The wind was blowing from the sea to the land strongly enough to carry the tossed gravel some twenty five feet up and fifty feet along. I don't think I'd want to bring my little rowing boat so close to a lee shore, in what must have been pouring rain, crashing waves and poor visibility except during the lightning flashes. He might manage to throw the revolver, but gravel???

Totally agree with you!

Despite some of us having problems with the solution and the culprit, I think most of us have enjoyed this. Which other Bude books would people recommend, out of those that have come back into print so far?

I really liked last month's read, The Cheltenham Square Murder, and also The Sussex Downs Murder, but wasn't so keen on The Lake District Murder. I can see that BLCC has republished a few more by him.

I thought Death Makes a Prophet was excellent.

Judy wrote: "Despite some of us having problems with the solution and the culprit, I think most of us have enjoyed this. Which other Bude books would people recommend, out of those that have come back into prin..."

Thank you for the recommendation, Colin.

I'm currently reading the Lake District book - not really enjoying it very much. I didn't re-read Cornish Coast, but I thought it was okay when I read it before. I believe I said in my review that I had it narrowed down to three people, none of whom were the guilty culprit.

I'm about 2/3 through The Lake District Murder .It's okay, but there aren't any characters that interest me. (view spoiler)[ I don't like big criminal organizations as culprits---which is where this seems to be going. (hide spoiler)]. I miss the vicar.

Finally finished it, and was also disappointed about the murderer. There was nobody left, because Ruth and Ronald seemed so improbable, later also Cowper. If the book weren´t in the vicar series, I´d have thought it was him, as I expected someone we already knew, or perhaps suicide in an odd manner.

I liked the Cheltenham and Sussex, but still got Lake District at home. Hope it´s not too bad. ;)

I just think Lake District is kind of dragging for me - I think I'm at 64%.

I just finished, liked it better than Cheltenham. I too thought it wasn’t really “playing the game�� that the Vicar reveals things in his final chat with the doctor, that we never knew. I did like the characters and the puzzle.

I thought it was really odd for a mystery author to end the book with the amateur detective swearing off murder mysteries! I mean, wouldn’t that affect future sales? I’m surprised his editor let it stand.

I am really dragging in Lake District.also. I have been "reading" for two weeks. I make myself read a little, and quickly switch to a more appealing TBR. I just can't care about the characters or the mystery. I may finish it eventually but it's way down on my priority list.

I didn't much like that one either. Way too much detail on the workings of the petrol pump etc to be interesting or enjoyable.

Mary wrote: "I thought it was really odd for a mystery author to end the book with the amateur detective swearing off murder mysteries! I mean, wouldn’t that affect future sales? I’m surprised his editor let it stand...."

Mary, I was surprised by this too, but wondered if it was a sort of "in joke" - like all the lines in detective stories where people say "If this was a detective story, now, such and such might happen!"

I think I preferred Cheltenham, although I enjoyed them both.

I also enjoyed both and preferred Cheltenham. Ignoring the unlikeliness of either murder method succeeding, the murderer in Cheltenham was one of the suspects.

I like the Bude's I've read but have problems with the plots. The vicar was a joy however. I loved his use of string (which I understood more than tracking the arrows in Cheltenham).

This is just the second Bude I’ve read, the other being The Cheltenham Square Murder, and I notice basically the same ‘tracing the line of the bullet/arrow�� motif; I presume that this doesn’t crop up all the time in Bude?

Like others I enjoyed this, but felt it didn’t really play fair: The murderer is a briefly mentioned character until the end, and the crucial motive isn’t revealed until then. Although I suppose there’s the faintest thread of clues before that motive is revealed: The murderer must have used a boat, the gravel was in a boat that was used by someone other than its owner, and having painted his boat Burden would have to use someone else’s ...

I agree - I thought the author “cheated�� by his choice of murderer. The method seemed implausible too. We were supposed to believe that in a storm, from a small boat below a cliff, someone could throw gravel accurately on to the correct window & also fire a gun - seriously?? Despite this, I enjoyed the book & liked the way the characters were described & aspects of the story revealed. My disappointment was that such a good author could have written a much more realistic solution.

I finally got around to this and agree with the main sentiments expressed by everybody. I really enjoyed the writing style and the characters, but the murder was a bit implausible and the murderer and the motive not really connected to the main story at all. Fun to read in any case.

Nick wrote: "This is just the second Bude I’ve read, the other being The Cheltenham Square Murder, and I notice basically the same ‘tracing the line of the bullet/arrow�� motif; I presume that this doesn’t crop up all the time in Bude?..."

I don't think so - I've only read a couple of others so far, but don't remember this being a feature in those.