Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

Anyone read Silverview? If so, what were your thoughts? I thought it had shades of the classic Le Carre and would recommend it, but it seemed too brief and a little incomplete (perhaps understandable given it was published after his passing).

At about the 70% point I'm unsure about it. I feel like I am waiting on the main plot to start.

While it was poignant--the old master's last work--I found it disappointing because it seemed to be a rehash of old, seasoned themes. Old retired buffers talking about past victories in the spy game, and fingers pointing to possible betrayers like the lead alcoholic character. Despite all this, I relished it, shortish maybe, but most novels these days are far too verbose and lengthy for the basic theme. A must 'last' read for Le Care aficionados.

I agree with Roger's words, "... shortish maybe, but most novels these days are far too verbose and lengthy...", they cut across all genres. To me it will always be Story above everything else.

Strange. Rum.

Strange. Rum. Short of the pale.

The audience's fault, rather than the author's.

JLC could write techno-thriller, psychological drama, romance, or straightforward detective mystery. Not just espionage. He could write anything. Maybe he should have gone back to those other, simpler genres as his readership at-large devolved into such a childish and infantile state.

To love JLC you need to love English literature. One glance at his prose illustrates his classical technique. The pride of his nation.

But who, today, can live in the world of English literature? No one. It's been raped.

Today's world is not that gentle world of reflection, subtlety, consideration, or sensitivity. It's not the world anymore for fine-grained, emotional depth which British writers gave us for so many years.

Today we have the cheap, fast-paced, thin, flimsy, superficial world Aldous Huxley predicted, the world envisioned by JB Priestley, Anthony Burgess, LB Hartley

No blame for LeCarre, from me. Blame for the readers.

Feliks wrote: "Strange. Rum. Short of the pale.

The audience's fault, rather than the author's.

JLC could write techno-thriller, psychological drama, romance, straightforward detective mystery. Not just espion..."

Well said Felix!

JLC has always taken me, should say always takes me, away, and the shorter the better to my ecperience.

Yes, so well said Felix, thank you.

Feliks wrote: "Strange. Rum."

Don't blame the audience or say their tastes are childish & infantile. Tastes change. We live in a fast-paced world, so of course fast-paced literature is popular. And "fine-grained, emotional depth" is not neccessarily lost in plot driven fiction.

re comments comparing JLC with literary giants like Priestley, Waugh, Huxley, I would simply add that JLC was no Graham Greene. This is not to detract from his multitude of talents. But let's face it--and there's nothing wrong in this-- he was a spy thriller writer. In my view, he was a contemporary rival of Len Deighton, not writers like [as afore- mentioned] Greene, Durrell--even Conrad!

I've been a fan of John le Carré's novels since the mid-1980s. One of my favorites from him is "The Honourable Schoolboy", which I read a little over 30 years ago.



Since that time, I've read several other le Carré novels. I've always appreciated the intelligence and the quality of writing he brought to his work. (I've also enjoyed listening to the various radio interviews - both here in the U.S. and overseas - he had given over time about his life and novels. He was a very fascinating man in many ways.)

Recently, I read a book of short stories by Graham Greene. I can't say I found it particularly impressive. At some point, I will read one of his novels, just to see how they stack up.

Conrad I've read a couple of times over the past 30 years. He doesn't do much for me. "Heart of Darkness" - despite an interesting quote here and there - made for excruciating reading.

The writers of spy fiction I especially like are Edward Wilson (he's fantastic!) , Alan Furst, Charles McCarry, Robert Littell, Aly Monroe, and Eric Ambler.

Sometime this year, I intend to read some spy novels I have from David Downing, Charles Cumming, Francine Mathews, and Mick Herron.

I will always be a fan of John le Carre'.
I read two Charles Cumming books and enjoyed them.
I started one of Mick Herron's awhile ago but my timing was bad-
So thank you Komet for the reminder :)
Have never read Aly Monroe or Edward Wilson.
I also liked a few from Furst and Littell and the one I did read from Conrad read was was ok.
I cant comment on David Downing or Charles McCurry, but can on Graham Greene; only to say there is something about his writing which I can't put my finger on that annoys me.

I forgot to say- and Felix you will laugh... I stopped reading
Daniel Silva two years ago. If anyone is a fan, can you guess why?

Roger wrote: "re comments comparing JLC with literary giants like Priestley, Waugh, Huxley, I would simply add that JLC was no Graham Greene. This is not to detract from his multitude of talents. But let's face ..."

Of course, this doesn't settle the point, but Graham Greene himself even stated that, 'The Spy Who Came in from the Cold' was the finest espionage novel ever written.

A more definitive analysis which compares JLC to any of the above-mentioned names ...would probably have to come from a good English Lit department at a good university.

I myself have no doubt though. Any side-by-side technical analysis of JLC's prose alongside the prose of Conrad or Maugham or Golding, or Burgess... no worries on my part. JLC would not fall short of any of the names I mentioned.

It's just an opinion, but one I'll stick to.

St wrote: "Don't blame the audience or say their tastes are childish & infantile. Tastes change. We live in a fast-paced world, so of course fast-paced literature is popular. An..."

I do blame the audience. I'd call them by all the names I called them above and I'd even add a lot more criticisms on some other evening. That's how I feel about it.

Excusing decay, sloth, and decrepitude --by blithely designating it merely as 'inevitable change' --doesn't seem a sufficient enough answer to me. I'm not convinced that it is inevitable. Change is up to us; change stems from our choices.

It makes no sense to me, to simply 'shrug our shoulders' at the decline-and-fall of society and culture -- either prior to the rapid innovations in leisure technology today, or subsequent to that transformation.

Don't we want a better world? Don't we work for a better world? No? Okay, if not, then what are our values? Why maintain institutions like education, law, medicine, or family, if we really weigh our 'fast paced lifestyles' so much more?

Heck, if that's the case, then let's just create all our babies in laboratory test-tubes. Let's build giant domes over our cities. Let's grow antennae and communicate like termites. Let's re-form society on the principles of food-supply, warfare, conquest, free-market economics, colonialism, and rape. There's plenty of fallen civilizations from the past which amply demonstrate man's tendency to self-destruct, which we can deftly imitate with today's fancy hi-tech toys.

Is that what we want? Or, are you saying, "hey, the world just naturally moves so fast these days"...that this isn't even a question worth asking anymore? We should just 'take our hands off the wheel' ... let the car run off the edge of the cliff? Screw any innocent pedestrians too, if they get crushed on the way down? Our "speediness" comes first?

H'mmm.

Not me. Me, I think literature is an important safeguard which helps keep us from such a doomed course as that.

Me, I believe quality-of-life (the quality-of-life represented by literacy and books) matters. I don't want a cartoon superhero society with carton superhero mentality.
No matter how fast the world whizzes by, it's not going so fast that we should forget how to care; how to be human; how to live responsibly with forethought, self-examination, and conscience.

Stacey B wrote: " I stopped reading
Daniel Silva two years ago. If anyone is a fan, can you guess why?"

No, I can't imagine. He's the Israeli author right? Emphasis on the Mossad? Did he change his political views? Did he switch parties, maybe a leap from liberal to conservative?

Feliks wrote: "St wrote: "Don't blame the audience or say their tastes are childish & infantile. Tastes change. We live in a fast-paced world, so of course fast-paced literature is popular. An..."

I do blame the..."

A fast-paced world is what we live in. It won't change anytime soon. I choose to deal with it and adapt.


I've also written a spy thriller, CHELYABINSK. I'm proud to say it's as good as any book Mr. Le Carre or any other author in this genre has written.

Btw: my name is John Pansini. Don't know why GR calls me ST.

All one needs to do to be reminded that the world in essence, doesn't change is just leave the smart-phone in the house and step outside on the lawn in bare feet wearing just a pair of jeans and a t-shirt.

Kinda like what Raymond Shaw said about television. I suppose some people can do it, and some people can't. But the world inherently stays the same; its always there waiting for us to come back to our senses. It'll be there after we blow ourselves up.

Congrats on the book release, by the way. I agree what Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ did to your username is odd. Contact one of the site librarians, this might be detrimental to any marketing you're engaged in. I'll add the title to the group shelf, too.

Feliks wrote: "Stacey B wrote: " I stopped reading
Daniel Silva two years ago. If anyone is a fan, can you guess why?"

No, I can't imagine. He's the Israeli author right? Emphasis on the Mossad? Did he change hi..."

None of the above.
He is an American fiction author of 22-23 books. Yes,mossad action with personal politics, which by the way, has nothing to do
with my opinion.
His subject matter used to be great.
He has become redundant with his storylines and characters and gotten soft. Could be "Gabriel Allon" is aging out quickly. In my opinion, and evidently not just mine; it seems he lost his magic spell with the last two books which made me so disappointed that I just gave up.
//
Not sure the following question is related to the other discussion, but does the life span of a book depend on the audience/readers of the moment?
Similar to many Broadway plays that had to close?

Feliks wrote: "All one needs to do to be reminded that the world in essence, doesn't change is just leave the smart-phone in the house and step outside on the lawn in bare feet wearing just a pair of jeans and a ..."

Thanks, Feliks. Much appreciated. If you'd like a free copy (autographed of course), please let me know.

email: [email protected]
website:

Well done St.

We agree to disagree; its all good. This group encourages different philosophies; I admire anyone who will stand firmly by what they believe, regardless whether it meshes with mine.

Also, this group supports new authors. Cheers!

Stacey B wrote: "Not sure the following question is related to the other discussion, but does the life span of a book depend on the audience/readers of the moment? Similar to many Broadway plays that had to close?..."

Interesting question. I feel the answer is 'no'. After all, books go out-of-print and back-into-print all the time. 'Fast One' by Paul Cain is an example. Or, William Goldman's career; or Robert Anton Wilson's books.

Up-and-down sales affect other media too (music, movies, plays, poetry, painting).

A lot of mainstream releases do hinge on 'opening weekends' and 'opening nights' and 'first runs'.

Many projects can start out "with no legs", they might seem, "flash in the pan" at first --and then maybe are championed by a few shrewd critics or a few perceptive fans --and that's how we all come to recognize them.

This is why we call some flicks, 'sleepers', or 'cult classics'. 'Art-house' and 'underground' and 'revival' and 'retrospective'. Or why we can say that some books, 'stand the test of time'.

John, Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ search bar does not identify your title for me when I search on either title or author. Can you steer me to it?

Have to re-do my author page. I'll let you know when it's done.

Thank you and I'm sorry for putting you through this trouble.

No biggie, it will be a simple matter once they give you a proper book page. I'll wait for your update.

Recently re-read JLC's "The Spy Who..." and Greene's "The Human Factor". For what I seek in reading Greene is really good and JLC is great.

JlLC works his magic for me in what of the picture he allows or requires my imagination to complete, as in "Our Game" or "The Perfect Spy". In that respect I'm reminded of Henry James as in "What Maisie Knew" or "The Europeans".

I've made this gripe about Greene before: where exactly is there any espionage present in his espionage novels?

I've read 'The Human Factor' and it nearly put me to sleep; as have a few of his others. Even as I was reading it, I was wondering: where the heck is the story? What I found instead was endless interior agonizing from the main character towards his relationship with his wife. Worrying, 'what she would think of his feelings if he ever broached them'.

When I want to praise Greene, I can do that too. There's quite a lot to admire. His political insights are the best part of his effort. Also, his exotic settings. But how many of his books treat soul-searching romances and mystic Catholicism instead of crime or espionage? Too many. It's been a 'bait-and-switch' experience more than a few times. He writes a sumptuous romance, but if there's a total of three pages of "mild subterfuge" thrown in also, the book is "called" espionage by his publishers.

With his background, he should have been clobbering the topic.

Kind of agree with recent remarks re Silva. For a complete antidote to the superhero from Mossad [Gabriel Allon].
read my latest [THE ALGERIAN HOAX] where one Mishka Arenson, a leading actor in Mossad shenanigans, plays a key role. He also appeared in one of the earlier Michael Vaux novels. I invented him as a sort of counterweight to the hero-worship that Allon receives from author Silva.

Roger wrote: "Kind of agree with recent remarks re Silva. For a complete antidote to the superhero from Mossad [Gabriel Allon].
read my latest [THE ALGERIAN HOAX] where one Mishka Arenson, a leading actor in Mo..."

Roger,
I never put 2+ 2 together.
I read The Wayward Spy in 2011.
Going to look at your latest. Thank you.

Ken Follett has a Mossad hero in 'Triple' nicknamed 'The Pirate'.

Similar to der Nadle in "Eye of the Needle" but unusual in that he is very short, whereas Needle was tall.

Anyway it's an astounding book which made me leap out of my seat when i accidentally happened to discover how much of a real-life incident Follett based the yarn on.

Afterward, I still like to speculate whether Follett's 'Pirate' was secretly the infamous Moishe Dayan. Who could possibly resemble a pirate more than he?

Feliks wrote: "Ken Follett has a Mossad hero in 'Triple' nicknamed 'The Pirate'.

Similar to der Nadle in "Eye of the Needle" but unusual in that he is very short, whereas Needle was tall.

Anyway it's an astoun..."

You are right.
Read them both years ago. Great story.

That's what was so freaky-deaky. You sail along, thinking, "ah gee here's Follett again in fine form, doing his cool convincing concocting of outlandish far-fetched feats...gee, he's always so deft at this, isn't he? Of course, I know it's all made up ..." and then the dang yarn leads --with a little digging --to a true life event, and so you ultimately don't know how much Follett made up and how much was invented. Since it's left so ambiguous, no way to sift out the two perspectives, you sorta feel 'as if you were there'.

Good analogy. Completely different writing style.
Silva uses many of the characters in each book, as its a team effort. makes The reader knows each character inside and out while predicting each move. I used to stand on the sidelines involved in the operation, feeling their pain.

I really enjoyed this discussion. Thanks to all. I liked the book as a novel because Le Carre was so good with pacing, detail, and characterization. It also completed the arc of his books being so disaffected with the intelligence services. I gather from the son's intro that his father was worried he was being too hard on them, however. I can certainly see why readers would want more espionage, and indeed I'm reading a lot of fiction set during WWII with much tradecraft. Thanks again for the discussion.

Hans wrote: "I really enjoyed this discussion. Thanks to all. I liked the book as a novel because Le Carre was so good with pacing, detail, and characterization. It also completed the arc of his books being so ..."
Glad you enjoy tradecraft, I do too. I thought the TV show THE AMERICANS was good on so many levels. Except tradecraft. The Russian couple, I forget their names, were illegals. Illegals are so valuable and take so long to train and establish identities, that they don't do anywhere near what the TV producers had them do.

Illegals were cells to be activated only in the event of war between us and the Soviets; i.e. when was no Soviet presense in America. I expect that still holds true today. 1950s Soviet "spy" Rudolph Abel was an illegal.

When illegals are caught it's mostly by luck; i.e. someone close to them turns them in.

John wrote: "Hans wrote: "I really enjoyed this discussion. Thanks to all. I liked the book as a novel because Le Carre was so good with pacing, detail, and characterization. It also completed the arc of his bo..."

John,
Are your comments in reference to characters in the show THE AMERICANS or generally speaking. I have never seen the show.

My comments are in reference to both the TV show and in general about what I've learned from my research into Cold War espionage in the 1980s.

I had a lot to learn, and I learned a lot; i.e. the difference between a KGB agent & a KGB officer. For example, a KGB agent is an American recruited by a KGB officer, a Russian, to spy for the SU.

Me, I can't go that route (contemporary media). I'm always doing my own research and my own writing, so I can't help but wonder "Gee, who's writing that show? Staff writers? What extent are they going to in terms of research? What are they leaving out and what are they leaving in?" And I wonder what secrets are they going to give me which wouldn't be more thrilling to discover myself. In general, I'd rather pick up some cool-beans original source material and sift through it on my own. Or I'd rather read something from an author "who was there at the time" (Greene, LeCarre, Maugham). No consuming any pre-chewed food.

Same thing with comedy: I'd heard there was a movie about the 'Three Stooges' which came out a few years ago. Can't comprehend this. Who could possibly be involved with such a project? Are any of today's big-name actors secret Stooges fans and they were pining for this opportunity all their career? Practicin' Stooge routines at home in their free time, were they? If not, then what are their credentials for being involved? And as for the audience: my question is, gee if you're a big Stooges fan, then why not just watch the boys directly? Or, if one deeply loves the Stooges on a daily basis, work/donate towards preserving those old reels & old memorabilia? Essentially I'm saying: no dilettantes allowed.

Yea, I know it's a television culture these days and I admit my POV sounds priggish but the passivity of sitting on a sofa watching cable TV makes me frantic, agitated, restless. I just can't sit, relax, and do it anymore. It feels like I'm ossifying in my seat. For me to sit still that way the 'content' I'm viewing, better be prepared at an expert's level.

Consider a book like this: Handbook of Intelligence and Guerrilla Warfare by Aleksander Orlov. He was on the other side at the time!

Very interesting Mossad team in JLC's "The Little Drummer Girl". JLC bases the story on that particular geopolitical dilemma. Another aspect of his story creation that I've always enjoyed. Not just stuffy Brits and brash Yanks kind of thing. JLC very artfully exposes the underlying causes for tension which can morph into violence, or negligence.

I think Graham Greene did a great job of that as well in "The Quiet American". Admittedly little if any espionage in that one, so sorry for drifting off topic.

John wrote: "My comments are in reference to both the TV show and in general about what I've learned from my research into Cold War espionage in the 1980s.

I had a lot to learn, and I learned a lot; i.e. the d..."

I did not mean to imply that I learned anything about real espionage from TV show The Americans. What I did learn from that show was they didn't know a damn thing. What I learned I learned from memoirs of intelligence officers & other non-fiction sources.

"The Quiet American" has a well-deserved reputation; certainly within the scope of this group to discuss. So too, would be the more controversial "The Ugly American" or even "The Naive and Sentimental Lover". They're all relevant in their way. I myself recently posted a link about Edward Lansdale, after all.

We can chat about espionage books and movies which --for any one of us --'failed to hit the mark', and speculate as to why. Hopefully without anyone feeling stung or snubbed.

"Little Drummer Girl" was certainly a fine project for LeCarre to take on, as was "Honourable Schoolboy".

Espionage stories need not --should not --always be tied to dreary London and Berlin.

We can treat any kind of espionage in this group: corporate, historical, religious, romantic; fiction or nonfiction.

"Espionage stories need not --should not --always be tied to dreary London and Berlin.

We can treat any kind of espionage in this group: corporate, historical, religious, romantic; fiction or nonfiction."

I finally found my book on GR: "CHELYABINSK: Where the Salamanders Glow."

/book/show/5...

Again I apologize for getting this info to you on a chat about JLC, but I don't know how else to do it. GR is clunky to navigate. My author page is full of books that I wrote when I was still learning how to write. GR will NOT let me delete them!

Thanks,
JP

Thanks Felix. It seems to me that another key attribute of Le Carre's as a writer is the way in which he manages mood. The Honourable Schoolboy is an example of what I'm trying to say. Are we going off the emotional precipice? No, we're OK for now. Wait, we're on the edge again! And while maybe all or most writers do something like that, he does so with no sense, to me anyway, of being maniulated, and with perfect usefulness in the story. Two of my other heroes who in my opinion do this thing so well are Eric Ambler and Alan Furst. Furst does that so well also faithfully managing a tricky historical and geographical context.

And I really agree, Felix, about the merits of moving the story away from the big international capital cities. A real world example in the current day might be Hong Kong, or almost any place in the cultural flow and counter flow of eastern Asia, including Sydney.

Feliks, sorry for the misspelling.

No biggie. When I see SPAG (spelling and grammar) errors, I always figure that readers may be visiting the site with a tablet or some other device; there may be lag or other connection issues; etc.

John Pansini, your book is now on our front-page for this month. This also makes the title appear in many of Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ' deeper search engines. Good luck to you.

p.s. I see you invited me as a Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ contact --thank you --but I almost never do this because of conflict-of-interest as a moderator. Thank you anyway!

Adam Hall's Quiller series has the most exotic locations I've enjoyed from a writer in this league. He really goes far out. Bangkok, Tunisia, Rio, Monaco.

You can find this kind of thing in various other action series (Joe Gall, for instance --see our group bookshelf with titles sorted by 'men's action series') but not usually done so well at the level of Littell, Hall, and McCarry.