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Hello, everyone

Welcome to the new thread.

After talking about A.S. Byatt and Margaret Drabble,
I remembered earlier today that Drabble's Jerusalem the Golden was a Reading Group choice. I'm posting the link again if anyone wants to check it out:
...

My copy of the book has the cover shown in this thumbnail.

Happy reading to all!

Thanks G for the new thread.

I finished reading about DI Raven in Scarborough and have now moved to read the second in the Alice Rice mysteries set in Edinburgh



A High Court Sheriff has been found at home bludgeoned to death, and local neighbourhood is up in arms about a proposed wind farm development. No doubt the connection will become apparent. The DCI has gone on sick leave and her replacement is known from the past to our heroine as being rather handsy. So far so good.

I saw that Diana had read and enjoyed a book from one of Ann Cleeves' older series, Inspector Ramsay. I read those some years back. This prompted me to check out her first series, the Palmer-Jones books, and I'm reading Come Death And High Water. A murder takes place on an island which holds a bird observatory � as for giveusaclue, so far so good :).

Gpfr wrote: "Hello, everyone

Welcome to the new thread.

After talking about A.S. Byatt and Margaret Drabble,
I remembered earlier today that Drabble's Jerusalem the ..."

First of all - thanks for opening this new thread! Secondly - of course I agree with your and AB's comments on the crazy 'solutions' of the populist anti-immigrant politicians.

As for these authors - somehow they never appealed to me, seeming both a bit 'trendy' (I like the dust to settle before trying authors, usually) and also suspiciously 'intellectual' (Byatt) and possibly 'earnest' (Drabble)... but since I haven't read either, I could be a million miles off the mark. Let's just say that my antennae told me I'd be unlikely to have much fun with them.

(Regarding 'intellectuals' - why is it that the French 'do' these so much better than the English? In the UK, being an 'intellectual' is often taken as a pose, or pretentious, whereas in France they tend to get taken seriously... as usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle - French intellectuals tend to be more profound and interesting than British ones - in recent times*, anyway - but they can also be far more absurd and pretentious. They certainly have a greater range - or so it seems to me! That's an impression, BTW - not an argument I'd care to defend in detail.)

* Edit: 'recent times' here - to me - refers to the last 120 years or so, not the last 10 years!

A quick update on Ross Macdonald:

I have now finished not only The Chill but also Black Money and The Goodbye Look which means that I've read 8 out of the 18 Lew Archer novels, and currently have no others on the BTR pile... no doubt I'll get around to the other 10, either eventually (if other books and authors prove entertaining) or soon (if they don't).

A quick summary, then: Macdonald writes well, and in many books refers to a significant number of cultural touchstones from art to philosophy to French poetry etc. He employs a rich and wide vocabulary effectively but without the absurd pretentiousness of the "look how clever I am" brigade of so-called 'fine writers'. His 'tec Lew Archer takes an effectively moral stance, and isn't in it for the money or personal glory. The author has a fine sense of humour, on display in most of the books (the last I read, 'The Goodbye Look', was rather more sombre.)

My only real criticism concerns the plots, which are at times too far-fetched and more often introduce such a large number of characters - who also can have more than one identity - that it's easy to feel a bit lost. I find that the e-reader - which allows searches by name - help me to avoid too much confusion about who is who, but even with that assistance it's not that easy!

Here are some quotes I liked from two of those books:

I hung up and sat quite still for a moment in Bradshaw’s leather-cushioned swivel chair. The walls of books around me, dense with the past, formed a kind of insulation against the present world and its disasters. I hated to get up.

He loves the public eye, you know � he’s always been a bit of an actor � but he isn’t so terribly fond of the responsibilities that go with it.�

I walked on to the next corner, sat on a bench at a bus stop, and read in my new book about Heraclitus. All things flow like a river, he said; nothing abides. Parmenides, on the other hand, believed that nothing ever changed, it only seemed to. Both views appealed to me.

(Those are from 'The Chill')

When I saw my prospective client, in the sunny courtyard outside the snack bar, I recognized him instinctively. He looked like money about three generations removed from its source.

I waited in the dim hallway on a high-backed Spanish chair which Torquemada had made with his own hands.

She pouted, and frowned a little with her thin painted-on eyebrows. She didn’t frown very hard because that gave girls wrinkles and besides I might kill her and she didn’t want to die with a frown on her lovely face.

(from 'Black Money')

Thanks for the new thread, GP.

I’ve been reading some of Byron’s verse. A person wanting entertainment could do worse than read the tale of Laura and her husband Beppo, a Venice merchant trading to Aleppo. One time he’s gone and disappears for years. What should she do? It satisfies Venetian ³¾²Õ³Ü°ù²õ, that Laura who is comely if no longer twenty, is seen in public with her cavalier servente. The poet rhymes for pages after pages. Some rhymes are good, and some are just outrageous.

scarletnoir wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "Hello, everyone

Welcome to the new thread.

After talking about A.S. Byatt and Margaret Drabble,
I remembered earlier today that Drabble's J..."

from my sad observations scarlet, i see most anglo-saxon cultures are decidedly sceptical about intellectuals and intellectual discussion/debate. Obsessions with hard work and "doing" not "thinking" play a part. Its a gulf i notice far too often, most of the leading western European nations are so much better at public thinkers but also in general.

I follow many european rock bands, roughly of my generation and their talking points are so far above even the brightest anglo-saxon acts in most cases. I remember an interview with A-hA (norwegian pop-rock act) where Kierkegaard was discussed and other such things and it made me think, when has any equivulent anglo-saxon band got beyond "booze/girls/fame" in any chat?

Laddish male culture can leave any "profound" or "deep" thoughts in normal conversations reduced to being ridiculed. Humour is a strong, positive feature of British life but sometimes i think it reduces serious intellectual debate

As I posted before, Andy has set up a new website. The move is now finalised, he'll no longer be posting on tumblr.
Here's the link:

Gpfr wrote: "Hello, everyone

Welcome to the new thread.

After talking about A.S. Byatt and Margaret Drabble,
I remembered earlier today that Drabble's Jerusalem the ..."

Thanks for the reminder, Gpfr. Interesting to see who commented then, too. A good experience while it lasted!

J.R.R. Tolkien, neo-Fascist icon (gift link):

Most people know Tolkien’s books as bedtime stories or fantasy epics. But for Ms. Meloni and others who grew up in a post-Fascist universe that could not publicly look to the recent Italian past for heroes, Tolkien’s adventures � tales of warriors, invading armies and everyday folk defending their homelands � supplied a safe space to articulate their worldview. They dressed in character. They sang along with the extremist folk band Fellowship of the Ring at jamborees of right-wing youth called Camp Hobbit.

Now as Ms. Meloni, 46, has moved from the political margins of her youth to the center of Italian political life, that esoteric subculture has followed her up to Italy’s temples of high art. At a meeting of the prime minister’s party leaders this summer, the culture minister, Gennaro Sangiuliano, called the show a “gift.� He has said Tolkien was a major literary figure who deserved a major show marking the 50th anniversary of his death. Ms. Meloni’s critics have instead characterized the exhibit, which she called “a beautiful page of culture,� as a right-wing counteroffensive in the country’s culture wars.

Gpfr wrote: "I saw that Diana had read and enjoyed a book from one of Ann Cleeves' older series, Inspector Ramsay. I read those some years back. This prompted me to check out her first series, the Palmer-Jones ..."

Yes, I've now read or rather listened to the first 3 of the Inspector Ramsey series, mainly while knitting of an afternoon. Thanks for the Palmer-Jones tip. I'll add them to my list. I do enjoy Ann Cleeves' writing.

In Visitants by Randolph Stow(1979) , the intelligent plotting is picking up quickly as an enquiry into a suicide by an aussie patrol officer gets under way in Australian ruled Papua New Guinea, 1959.

Five voices guide the enquiry but not as in a courtroom, or as 5 seperate accounts, they all blend into each other forming a chronological tale from five viewpoints and from that other characters are observed, including the dead man and local tribesman

Set in the Trobriand Islands to the east of the Papua mainland, there are hints at the dead man showing signs of "going native", an eccentric old scotsman who spends most of his day almost naked, upbraids a chieftains nephew that he will never govern the islands and the native women lust after the younger Australian patrol officer.

While the style is more modern than Conrad or Somerset-Maugham, their island worlds of faded colonial escapes are vivid in my mind, the flora and fauna, the warmth and the sea

The Trobriands had been studied by two anthropologists before this novel was writen. Seligman and Malinowski before and during WW1 and in the 1930s Wilhelm Reich drew on Malinowski's work in his study of "the invasion of compulsory sexual morality"

Come and Tell Me Some Lies by Raffaella Barker.
Raffaella Barker was the eldest of the 5 children the poet George Barker had with his last partner, Elspeth. This was her first book and it's a semi-autobiographical account of growing up in Norfolk in a cold, ramshackle house and a family unlike those of her schoolmates.
I enjoyed this and it sent me to look up Barker's poetry ...
I've liked several of her other books, Hens Dancing, Summertime (in which 2 books the heroine frequently resorts to her comfort read, Georgette Heyer)and Green Grass are very pleasurable reads.

The other book I've just finished is the very enjoyable Something Wholesale by Eric Newby.
After WWII, when he finally gets back to England, he goes to work for the family firm � an already old-fashioned manufacturer of ladies clothing.

scarletnoir wrote: "French intellectuals tend to be more profound and interesting than British ones - in recent times*, anyway"

Who in particular are you thinking of here? Sartre and the Existentialists are the only ones that come immediately to my mind. And, after a moment's reflection, Lévi-Strauss. Among Francophones more broadly, Frantz Fanon is certainly a hot property at the moment.

Bill wrote: "J.R.R. Tolkien, neo-Fascist icon (gift link):

..."

Yeah, which is ironic as Giorgia Meloni resembles the forbidden love child of Gollum and Ms Piggy. However, it's hard to see how Tolkien's world wouldn't appeal to Nationalists or worse. It's not coincidental that the only people in Middle Earth with melanin in their skin had fallen in thrall to Mordor.

That being said, Italians have no problem looking to the recent past for heroes. Ask any Italian below 50 about Mussolini, and they'll tell you that he was a usurper who never had popular support alla Grima Wormtongue. Or that all of the fascists magically melted away or found Gawd as soon as the Americans/Australians/Canadians formed a beachhead in Puglia. The idea that the fascists have largely held power ever sense with scant and brief interruption (see: Giulio Andreotti and Romano Prodi) isn't even comprehensible to them. Italians are masters of the powerless worldview. Everytime there is a bomb or a terrorist attack it was the Americans that did it or paid for it. It's a wonderful society fot absolving oneself of one's responsibility. Giorgia Meloni, all things being equal, is a relatively harmless politican who isn't resorting to Berlusconian antics. That she is FascioNationalist is just same old same old.

Gpfr wrote: "I saw that Diana had read and enjoyed a book from one of Ann Cleeves' older series, Inspector Ramsay. I read those some years back. This prompted me to check out her first series, the Palmer-Jones ..."

I read the series decades ago!

Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "French intellectuals tend to be more profound and interesting than British ones - in recent times*, anyway"

Who in particular are you thinking of here?."

As I said - it's not a claim I'd wish to defend in too much detail. I will say, though, that on French TV you get programmes where intellectuals debate issues from philosophical and/or moral standpoints, and not just the bluster, claim and counter-claim typical of 'serious' programming in the UK. Politics here seems shorn of thought, at the moment. Is it better in the USA?

Bill wrote: "J.R.R. Tolkien, neo-Fascist icon (gift link):

..."

Tolkien was flavour of the month when I was at uni in the '60s, but that sort of fantasy writing always repelled me and I never read any - so I have no opinion on whether his writings are 'fascist' or not. 'Uninteresting' is the word I'd choose!

scarletnoir wrote: "Is it better in the USA?"

Ha! I have to think it's worse here than anywhere. I mean to get around to reading Anti-Intellectualism in American Life sometime, but somehow keep putting it off. Michael Dirda mentioned it last week in his column on books worth re-reading:

When, back in the 1990s, I first read this enthralling, crisply written history of our country’s dismal attitudes toward learning, it seemed to illuminate every aspect of our politics and national character. My guess is that it still does.

Paul wrote: "Bill wrote: "J.R.R. Tolkien, neo-Fascist icon (gift link):

..."

The article got me thinking back to various editions of Tolkien I'd seen. Rather than try to capture them here, I'll link to this blog post which reproduces the US paperback covers at a reasonable size.



The paperbacks in which I first read the trilogy had covers by Barbara Remington whose psychedelic-flavored imagery fit well with the hippie culture that popularized the books in the US at that time.

Some of the later cover art choices seem to fit more into popular ideas of the Fascist aesthetic. This, for instance, probably wouldn't have been out of place in the Third Reich's “Great German Art Exhibition�


I note that a copy of the Barbara Remington map-poster of Middle Earth that's pictured at the end of the blog post is hanging in the room where I'm typing this.

Bill wrote: "Paul wrote: "Bill wrote: "J.R.R. Tolkien, neo-Fascist icon (gift link):

..."

Oh, wow. I've never seen that poster, it's fantastic. I inherited the clearly Dungeons and Dragons influenced 1981 editions from much older cousins and I remember them vividly before they got chucked away in one move or another. When I purchased them for myself somewhere around 1998, they were the first hard covers I permitted myself to buy

Bill wrote: "Paul wrote: "Bill wrote: "J.R.R. Tolkien, neo-Fascist icon (gift link):

..."

i have always loved that map!

Paul wrote: "Bill wrote: "J.R.R. Tolkien, neo-Fascist icon (gift link):

..."

Grima Wormtongue, a character that Dominic Cummings in the uk modelled his career on, though he didnt have a mighty king under a spell, he just had Boris Johnson!

Paul wrote: "Bill wrote: "J.R.R. Tolkien, neo-Fascist icon (gift link):

..."

Meloni has been less crazy than i expected..the argentinian populist will now supply the madness, till Trump is re-elected in 2024

Loving the Tolkien art. I was raised on Pauline Baynes and Tolkien's own illustrations. Did the Alan Lee illustrations ever cross the Atlantic?

Anne wrote: "Did the Alan Lee illustrations ever cross the Atlantic?"

I don't recall seeing them before. They are nice.



After its success with LOTR, Ballantine Books picked up the rights to reprint the Gormenghast books, which I liked even more. Peake's illustrations were certainly a strong part of their appeal for me.

Russell wrote: "Thanks for the new thread, GP.

I’ve been reading some of Byron’s verse. A person wanting entertainment could do worse than read the tale of Laura and her husband Beppo, a Venice merchant trading t..."

I read Thomas Moore's biography of Byron over the span of a few months this past year and read or re-read a few of Byron's own works as I went along, including Beppo. Yes, very entertaining and clever, as is almost all of Byron, especially the later work.

I like his authorial voice from this period - urbane and witty in a relaxed, not-needing-to-show-off manner, with an attitude of amused tolerance towards the weaknesses and inconsistencies of human nature that in the reading feels entirely natural and unassumed. Don Juan is probably the pinnacle of that style.

I strongly recommend the Moore biography, which should really have a Penguin or Oxford paperback edition, though it would require two or three volumes. It's routinely used as a primary source by later biographers but is very much worth reading for its own sake if you can find it.

Anne wrote: "Loving the Tolkien art. I was raised on Pauline Baynes and Tolkien's own illustrations. Did the Alan Lee illustrations ever cross the Atlantic?"

Same here, but the more I've seen of Tolkien's own illustrations the more they've taken over my visual imagery of Tolkien's Middle Earth, so that other illustrations of his work look to me like more or less (depending on the individual artist) accomplished fantasy art unconnected to Tolkien's fictional world.

Gpfr wrote: "Hello, everyone

Welcome to the new thread.

After talking about A.S. Byatt and Margaret Drabble,
I remembered earlier today that Drabble's Jerusalem the ..."

Thanks for your work on the threads. Happy Thanksgiving.

Bill wrote: "various editions of Tolkien..."

I've still got my copy of The Lord of the Rings which was given to me for Christmas when I was at university � the 1st 1 volume paperback, 1968.



Although not a fantasy fan, I enjoyed it at the time, but have never felt the urge to revisit.
Ditto for Gormenghast.

Palestinian writers on the Gaza crisis in NYRB and LRB has really appalled me, both articles seem to see the Oct 7th massacres as something that needs no condemming and part of the post 1948 palestinian "struggle".

Raja Shedadah was shameful in barely spending a few lines on Oct 7th and i will never read another article by him or his new book. As a two stater and not anti-Palestinian, i am amazed that articles like this can be published, it seems that Palestinians go into a bunker mentality and forget what the governing party in Gaza provoked.

Of course the situation under Netanyahu for a decade has been disasterous for Palestinians but to attack civilian targets, to loot,rape, kill and take civilian hostages is an act of war, Palestinians seem to see Hamas as some kind of glorious army, rather than the bullying rabble that dictate life and death in Gaza

Of course the situation under Netanyahu for a decade has been disasterous for Palestinians but to attack civilian targets, to loot,rape, kill and take civilian hostages is an act of war

Well, I think the facts of the matter would say that the looting, killing (maybe raping?) has been ongoing and largely directed against the Palestinian populace through the past decades. I think war is what they probably wanted.

Paul wrote: "Of course the situation under Netanyahu for a decade has been disasterous for Palestinians but to attack civilian targets, to loot,rape, kill and take civilian hostages is an act of war

Well, I t..."

the settler conundrum is a real issue for a 2 stater like me and in reference to that Paul, i would say a lot of the looting and killing has been on the Israeli side in the West Bank. The sadness with the kibbutzim of the West Negev and the kids at the dance festival is they are mostly progressive, two state Israelis, not the violent right wing settlers in the West Bank. Its all so sad

Gpfr wrote: "Ann Cleeves ... her first series, the Palmer-Jones ..."

This morning I was in Smith & Sons and was amused to see that these are being reprinted.

And there were several Patricia Wentworth Miss Silver books that we've also mentioned here.

Re the Palestinian situation - I do wonder how many of the ordinary Palestinians living there actually wholeheartedly support Hamas now (no elections since 2006) as opposed to those, both Palestinian and non-Palestinian elsewhere in the world. The two state solution has been put on the table in the past but Hamas's intention is the obliteration of Israel as a state and genocide of the Jewish race. Orchestrated of course by their leaders living it up in Qatar while their people suffer.

As has been said Hamas can keep losing and coming back, Israel only need to lose once for oblivion. And past history should be a warning that you mess with Israel at your peril.

The Israeli/Palestinian thing - what else to call it - brings Janis Joplin's - - Me and Bobby McGee to mind. The phrase that sticks in my head is - Freedom is when you have nothing left to lose.

giveusaclue wrote: "Re the Palestinian situation - I do wonder how many of the ordinary Palestinians living there actually wholeheartedly support Hamas now (no elections since 2006) as opposed to those, both Palestini..."

i do wonder if it was total nihilistic chaos that Hamas sought in the attacks of Oct 7th. Like Hitler in his bunker ranting about how the german people had failed him and wishing for a scorched earth policy.

Hamas and Gaza were certainly being played by the cynical Netanyahu to de-stabilize the PA in the West Bank, the deals with gulf states and then the possible deal with Saudi probably rattled them, so they decided to launch a suicidal attack and to provoke the bear

Some captured Hamas fighters claimed they were heading for the West Bank as a target when they drove out of the Gaza area, it seems a large police presence on the way north stopped Hamas getting deep into the towns south of Tel Aviv. I see the whole execution of the Hamas operation(except for the break out) as descending into chaos very quickly, into anarchy and violence, less a controlled hostage grab, more just violent sadism.

One of the captured fighters under interrogation suggested some idea of the standing of Hamas. The questioner asks the young man "what would your parents think of you being a Hamas fighter". The young man replies fast " they dont know...my father would shoot me dead, if he did"

Until my local newspaper reminded me, I had forgotten that today was the 60th year since JFK was assassinated in Dallas. I have downloaded Fredrik Logevall's JFK: Coming of Age in the American Century, 1917-1956 but have been remiss and listening to mysteries as I do chores.

I did enjoy Logevall's Embers of War: The Fall of an Empire and the Making of America's Vietnam, so I have hopes with his latest - JFK.

All this brings me to the middle of The Last Politician: Inside Joe Biden's White House and the Struggle for America's Future and the tumultuous exit from Afghanistan which also reminds me of April 30, 1975. When nation building fails, how to exit gracefully is an impossibility. The US has tried this twice with no success. I have to wonder if it could ever be done. Of course trying to create democracy where there is none to begin with is more than a little naive.

I know few here who are interested in 'political books, but The Last Politician: Inside Joe Biden's White House and the Struggle for America's Future is not only well written, but the author must have had incredible access to achieve its detail.

For those who might be interested here is a clip from PBS about it.

MK wrote: "Until my local newspaper reminded me, I had forgotten that today was the 60th year since JFK was assassinated in Dallas. "

Actually, tomorrow, the 22nd.

Related book recommendation, Dallas 1963.

Bill wrote: "MK wrote: "Until my local newspaper reminded me, I had forgotten that today was the 60th year since JFK was assassinated in Dallas. "

Actually, tomorrow, the 22nd.

Related book recommendation, [b..."

I stand corrected. I also remember being at a film at Patch Barracks (Stuttgart) when his death was announced (time difference). Nothing but dirges on AFN (Armed Forces Network) for several days.

A taste of the discourse engaged in by the American left. Or is this a right-wing troll?

Bill wrote: "MK wrote: "Until my local newspaper reminded me, I had forgotten that today was the 60th year since JFK was assassinated in Dallas. "

Actually, tomorrow, the 22nd.

Related book recommendation, [b..."

found a book on the assassination when loading stuff onto a skip for my dad a few weeks back, i saved it but left it at my parents place, must retrieve it, printed in 1967, i forgot the author but dad says it was the best account at the time.

i enjoyed De Lillo's book about Oswald and have watched and read a lot about the background.

Berkley wrote: "Russell wrote: "... I’ve been reading some of Byron’s verse..."
I read Thomas Moore's biography of Byron over the span of a few months this past year..."

Thanks for that suggestion. I’ve read various Byron biogs over the years but never thought to try the Moore.

Very much agree on Don Juan. I’ve been thinking about revisiting it. I well remember the humour and stylishness from reading it nearly half a century ago. Penguin do a nice-looking version.

I’m the proud possessor of a handsome 32mo first edition set of the poetical works put out by John Murray after Byron’s death. It contains everything except Don Juan. Byron had of course fallen out with his publisher over the scurrility and as a result, if I remember rightly, Murray did not own the copyright beyond the first couple of cantos.

Thanks for that suggestion. I’ve read various Byron biogs over the years but never thought to try the Moore.

Very much agree on Don Juan. I’ve been thinking about revisiting it. I well remember the humour and stylishness from reading it nearly half a century ago. Penguin do a nice-looking version.

I’m the proud possessor of a handsome 32mo first edition set of the poetical works put out by John Murray after Byron’s death. It contains everything except Don Juan. Byron had of course fallen out with his publisher over the scurrility and as a result, if I remember rightly, Murray did not own the copyright beyond the first couple of cantos."

As far as I remember, you're correct that Murray and Byron disagreed over the tone and content of Don Juan and that Murray refused to publish the later cantos, but I don't think this led to a general falling out between the two and they continued to correspond. My memory could be at fault, though.

The Moore bio certainly doesn't replace the newer ones that enjoy the benefit of one or two hundred years of Byron research and scholarship, but I think it's invaluable in a similar way to Mrs. Gaskell's bio of Charlotte Brontë, for its immediacy and the portrait painted by an accomplished author of the same time and place who knew their subject personally, even intimately.

That comes with disadvantages too of course - most obviously, a lack of distance and perspective - but we have the modern bios to act as a counterbalance. I came across my copy at one of the used bookstores here (Ottawa, Canada) so I imagine you'll be able to find one at a reasonable price.

One of the interesting things about Byron's era is that he and his contemporaries lived through the transition from the relatively free and easy moral atmosphere of the 18th century to what became the Victorian Age with its emphasis on moral uprightness and Christian virtue: Byron saw this change happening before his very eyes and as one would expect was not impressed. So the dispute with Murray over Don Juan can be seen as an aspect of that societal shift.

Here's a quiz on identifying short stories from their description:


I got 5 / 5 � some good guesswork!

Bill wrote: "

A taste of the discourse engaged in by the American left. Or is this a right-wing troll?"

never really "got" thanksgiving but i see it as primarily religious or secular celebration of life at a time of year, rather than anything settler or colonial but maybe i'm wrong

AB76 wrote: "Bill wrote: "

A taste of the discourse engaged in by the American left. Or is this a right-wing troll?"

never really "got" thanksgiving but i see it as primarily religious or secular celebration ..."


You will find the permanently offended everywhere you look Bill.

Bill wrote: "

A taste of the discourse engaged in by the American left. Or is this a right-wing troll?"

It's a lot more complicated I think. But one thing on the colonisers side was that they brought diseases to the natives that they had no immunity to, and so effectively the land was pretty much cleared of a lot of the native population which aided the colonisers settlement. I was amused, (although that doesn't really seem like the right word to use), by the attempt of the one surviving member, Squanto, (who had been a slave in England, and so spoke English, and so had also avoided the worst of the early plagues. He had lived an interesting life, and seems a lot better educated than many of the pilgrims!..) to get the pilgrims, unsuccessfully, to wash themselves! To the Indians they smelt bad!..

The first 'Thanksgiving dinner was organised by the settlers, giving thanks for their first harvest, but in their celebratory mood, they set off firing their guns, which attracted what was left of the local Indian tribe, where upon the colonists decided to share their harvest with the local Indians... and so the long-weekend feast of 'Thanksgiving' was born....

Haven't gotten enough of Mick Herron yet? Here's an NYT gift link -