ŷ������

madrano wrote: "
Post 92 Re: Drug use "

I don't know that I would say "endorsing use". I felt these characters were scared, depressed and sad. Sometimes people in those states feel the need for alcohol or drugs to ease their pain or they relapse back into bad habits.

I'm not saying that is a great idea. Just that is what often happens. During the pandemic drug use skyrocketed.

-------
Limited data indicate there were significant increases in many kinds of drug use in the United States since the national emergency was declared in March 2020. Researchers found the number of positive drug screens for fentanyl, cocaine, heroin, and methamphetamine increased from previous years .Nov 20, 2023
Source:
COVID-19 and Substance Use
National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) (.gov)
.

Alias Reader wrote: "Chapter: The park is still wintery its grass sere and its trees bare"

The section where Dan is cataloguing all of his brother's faults.
I love this line.
"Dan is the museum's curator, and its sole visitor."..."

This is a passage i highlighted and kept. It's such a sibling thing to do!

"Joy wrote: "Lovely to return from my trip and find so many new messages in this thread! I'm traveling again starting tomorrow, so it may take me a while to get through and respond to all the new po..."

No rush, Joy. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down before I go on to my next book and forget what I wanted to say !

The entire novel will be discuss from this point forward.

madrano wrote:
Deb Post 94
"In the chapter that begins "After Dan & Nathan", it is suggested that the adults have wondered that Violet, "seems to times to know that which she could not possibly know." In Isabel's words, "God, I hope she isn't psychic."

Additionally, when Violet tries to make sure that Robbie will return when he's gone to her room, she says, "But you'll come back." In reply, he states, "Sweetheart, if i ever go anywhere, I'll always come back." [Given what is shared in "Evening" chapter, what do you think?

Is she psychic? Do you believe in such things? Is she unconsciously self-fulfilling Robbie's quote from above? Will she outgrow it?.."

I generally don't believe in psychics. That said, some do believe children, can see things that adults can't see.

I think Violent was a very sensitive child. She loved Robbie and missed him. Young children can't understand the difference between reality and make-believe.

A bit off topic but it reminds me of my niece when she was a young child. We were watching Bugs Bunny on TV. In this episode he was changing into all types of crazy costumes. My little niece turns to me and says, "he's such a good actor". LOL

madrano wrote:
post 95
An owl is mentioned in each section of the book, so there is something about it the author/narrator wants us to consider. "

I thought death. An omen of the pandemic.

I have to say, I never thought of death or anything negative when I think of owls. If anything, I would say wise, learned or thoughtful.

Now that I think of it, it could be wise as to what lies ahead.

madrano wrote:
post 96
"As i mentioned elsewhere, the Chess/Garth relationship seemed to me to be superfluous but, of course, it isn't to the author. It seems to be a way to contrast a married commitment, with children being understood as part of the package, and a parenting decision without benefit/onus of partnering. Neither seem fully satisfactory--is that Cunningham's point? All choices have their issues to overcome through the years, many of which aren't considered when planning for children.."

I think it was just another way to explore that there are all different types of families and relationships within a family unit. All are valid.

madrano wrote:
post 96
"To wit--Garth is late (again), so she leaves Odin with Dan & Robbie.

I'm probably on the island by myself on this one. Yes, Garth is not a responsible adult. However, he is the father. I thought completely shutting him out from any interaction with the child is wrong and probably would come back to bite her in the behind when the child gets older.

madrano wrote: "A final comment about the chapter on The House of Mirth. It is the novel i most think about when it comes to Edith Wharton and i am surprised at how often my mind turns to ..."

I've only read:

Ethan Frome
and
The Custom of the Country
The last one with the NY Times book club.

I enjoyed them both a lot.

I was looking over the novel to write up a few notes to myself. So I was looking at things I underlined.

On my page 7. Chapter: If Wolfe were real, he'd be the elusive figure at the heart of the story.

We discussed the drug relapse by Dan. However, in this chapter it's mentioned that "Thinking about Wolfe's first post of the day, Robbie brews the coffee, pops a Paxil and an Adderall...."

I also noted in my highlights that the music Isabel listens to on the stairs is Brahms Requiem.

A requiem religious ceremony performed for the dead.

What do you think the significance of that is ? Does it just highlight her depression or is she mourning the loss of Robbie who has moved out?

madrano wrote:
post 94
Additionally, when Violet tries to make sure that Robbie will return when he's gone to her room, she says, "But you'll come back." In reply, he states, "Sweetheart, if i ever go anywhere, I'll always come back." [Given what is shared in "Evening" chapter, what do you think?

Is she psychic? Do you believe in such things? Is she unconsciously self-fulfilling Robbie's quote from above? Will she outgrow it?

Deb, looking over my highlights I noted that Violet has a heart condition. Robbie mentions the dr was concerned about her diet.

I was wondering if the owl is also signifying Violet's death at some point beyond the novel. I say this because she is concerned about the window and letting the sickness in.
Then in the chapter: Dan extinguished the ignition and turn off the headlights.

It's noted regarding Violet. "she's been different since her illness.
I think they are referring to Covid but possible it also has worsened her heart condition.

Then, Deb, in the section you pointed out, she sort of seems otherworldly. She is in the yellow dress that Robbie liked even though it no longer fits. She sees things the others can't.

She say at the end of that chapter:
It' surprisingly easy to console her parents. It helps that they think of her as simple. She can play along with that if it's helpful to them.

Perhaps I am totally off base. It's just a feeling I got when I looked over this chapters highlights.

Sorry for all the posts. It's more to help me organize my thoughts.

Alias Reader wrote: "I generally don't believe in psychics. That said, some do believe children, can see things that adults can't see.

I think Violent was a very sensitive child. She loved Robbie and missed him. Young children can't understand the difference between reality and make-believe...."

First of all, what a cute story about your niece! Love, love, love it.

Also, i appreciate the Stop Sign about no further need for Spoiler Warnings. Good idea.

I don't believe in psychics, either. As a teen i read so many books about that and other phenomena. Once i had children, i realized they have so few distractions that they pick up on many things totally oblivious to adult minds. Rather akin to what used to be said about women's intuition--some just take note of small things the rest of us either don't notice or seem to think are insignificant.

And i think your assessment about Violet is right on target. She will handle things as she sees them for now. It's her way of processing.

Alias Reader wrote: "I thought death. An omen of the pandemic.

I have to say, I never thought of death or anything negative when I think of owls. If anything, I would say wise, learned or thoughtful.

Now that I think of it, it could be wise as to what lies ahead..."

Perfect! I like that interpretation best of all. It's all we should want.

Alias Reader wrote: "
Deb, looking over my highlights I noted that Violet has a heart condition. Robbie mentions the dr was concerned about her diet.

I was wondering if the owl is also signifying Violet's death at some point beyond the novel. I say this because she is concerned about the window and letting the sickness in.
Then in the chapter: Dan extinguished the ignition and turn off the headlights...." POST 112

I agree with all your thoughts on Violet. First of all, i totally forgot about the hypertension/heart issue. In light of that & the likely daily reminders Robbie gives her (checking the menu, then reminding her), it's possible this is why she looks at illness and death in a different way or, maybe, just deeper than other children might.

I think it's that other-worldliness you mentioned which rubbed me the wrong way. Is it other worldly or just an offbeat kid? How much does her daily life have to play into that effect? Up until her worries about open windows during Covid, i thought she was just a kid who is the result of figuring out how the world works.

Your thought about the owl is an interesting one. It could work all over the place. This reminds me, was i alone in thinking that Nathan was going to try to kill himself when he walked into the lake at night? He was 10 when the book began, making him 13 or close to it in the final "chapter". It seems young to consider suicide but in the world which had changed so radically over the span of the book, i thought he was. It was a relief to me when Garth picked him up.

Alias Reader wrote: "I'm probably on the island by myself on this one. Yes, Garth is not a responsible adult. However, he is the father. I thought completely shutting him out from any interaction with the child is wrong and probably would come back to bite her in the behind when the child gets older. ..."POST 108

I don't think you are alone on this. It sounded as though Chess felt she had considered all possibilities about having a friend donate sperm. Of course it could have gone the way she thought, but it was just as easy for it to go the way it did. For her not to have considered it seems odd. If the goal is still to control his access to Odin, i hope she just goes to California. Anything else seems heartless, presuming she won't change her mind. Rip off the bandaid!

I may be alone in this.

madrano wrote: "Your thought about the owl is an interesting one. It could work all over the place. This reminds me, was i alone in thinking that Nathan was going to try to kill himself when he walked into the lake at night? He was 10 when the book began, making him 13 or close to it in the final "chapter". It seems young to consider suicide but in the world which had changed so radically over the span of the book, i thought he was. It was a relief to me when Garth picked him up.
..."

Yes. I thought the same thing when he walked into the lake. He felt responsible for bringing Covid into the house when he had his friends sneak in.

I forget which chapter it was in but there was one line that said even though they all lived together they never really listened to each other. Even Robbie at one point doesn't really listen to Dan's music. Violet sensed her mothers lack of interest in her too. Then Dan and Isabel weren't on the same page at all. Even Garth and Chass didn't seem to agree on how they were going to handle his being the sperm donor and his place, if any, in Odin's life.

Reminds me of the line about being in a crowd all alone. It was a sad family dynamic for sure.

Alias Reader wrote: "I've only read:

Ethan Frome
and
The Custom of the Country
The last one with the NY Times book club.

I enjoyed them both a lot..."

Custom is one of the few of her novels i haven't read. The following, in addition to many short stories (a mixed bag, including ghost stories!) are novels i've read by her:

Ethan Frome And House of Mirth

The Reef

Summer

The Age of Innocence

The glimpses of the moon. by: Wharton, Edith, 1862-1937

Twilight Sleep: The Edith Wharton 1920s New York Novel

I've also read what is considered her autobiography, A Backward Glance.

There are no stinkers in there, imo, although i barely recall the story of Twilight Sleep. Long ago, upon learning she was considered quite an interior decorator in her own home, i tried to locate a copy of The Decoration Of Houses: Edith Wharton but copies were too dear for my whim.

I see that one of her novels is The Marne, about being in France during WWI. I mention this because i am presently reading (over months, i hasten to add), The Alice B. Toklas Cook Book in which she writes a bit about the WWI experiences she & Gertrude Stein shared in France. As i read it, i ran across the name of the author of the first book i read about that War, Mildred Aldrich.

I hadn't known they were friends but Toklas mentions visiting them several times. Then i Wiki'ed Aldrich & learned there was quite a community of gay couples living in France in those years, who stayed and aided when possible. This was news to me, and i cannot help but wonder if Wharton knew any of these women. Up until now i haven't been interested in read a bio of Wharton but am adding a note to do so to my TBR.

I understand your proliferation of posts, Alias. I fear i have been getting lost in responding but if i've missed something important, please let me know. I scroll back & forth to locate them but somehow end up finding more! Then losing them!

And, of course, i ramble. Poor Joy! i don't know how you'll keep up with them. I'm enjoying the posts about the book, as well as our rabbit holes. It's one of those pleasures in Buddy Reads.

madrano wroteI see that one of her novels is The Marne, about being in France during WWI. I mention this because i am presently reading (over months, i hasten to add), The Alice B. Toklas Cook Book in which she writes a bit about the WWI experiences she & Gertrude Stein shared in France. As i read it, i ran across the name of the author of the first book i read about that War, Mildred Aldrich.

I hadn't known they were friends but Toklas mentions visiting them several times. T"

That interesting how a cookbook led you to all those connections. Is it any wonder we have a TBR a mile long !

Hello, book buddies! I'm back and catching up on the thread. I've read through msg #100 and am going to start replying to a few. Hopefully I'm not jumping back into the discussion after you're both totally over this book!

I'm very interested in this question of why people make the choices they do in life. There were several msgs on this, so I'll just quote the first one and indicate the rest by number.

Alias Reader wrote (msg 48): "I often wonder if sometimes people just claim to love something or do something because that is what is expected of them by society. Be it the big job, marriage, kids, or the big house etc."

Also msgs 57 (Deb), 59 (Alias), 60 (Alias), and 77 (Deb)

I think most, if not all, people do *some* things because that's what's expected of them. It may even be subconscious--what we think of, aspire to, or dream of is informed to some extent by what we see around us.

But even if people make choices based on what they actually want, they could still realize down the road that they'd been mistaken or that it wasn't what they thought it'd be. What someone wants can also change over time.

There isn't enough info in the book about Isabel's childhood or early adulthood for us to know how or why she ended up where she is. But I don't think it's as simple as her getting married and having kids solely because of societal expectations.

"She'd wanted children. She still wants them but maybe not all the time, not every morning and every night."

"It made sense until she fell out of love with Dan (more erosion than romantic catastrophe, just the steady thud of dailiness)...."

To me, this sounds more like realizing that marriage and parenthood are hard, and people change, and how you feel about someone changes, and sometimes you're just really tired.

"...another day's difficulties are about to roll in...and that soon she'll be compelled to join it all, to muster the most convincing possible manifestation of herself, a person who can do everything that's required of her."

Alias Reader wrote (msg 55): "The section where Dan is cataloguing all of his brother's faults. I love this line. "Dan is the museum's curator, and its sole visitor."

Yes! I loved that too!

Alias Reader wrote (msg 73): "Joy, I'm not sure what you mean by this. I just copy/paste the link."

I was trying to use the "a href" function and got an error message saying that external links weren't allowed. Didn't even occur to me to just paste the links (facepalm)

Alias Reader wrote (msg 70): "If you read someone's FB feed it's easy to think everyone else is having fun and has a spectacular life. People tend to only post (boast) about the good things. That can leave some feeling less than."

It's a bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, isn't it? If you only post the highlights reel, you're showing off or being inauthentic. If you post the bad/ugly, you're complaining and/or not appreciating what you have. If you post the mundane, you get the eyeroll.

Add to that the fact that my relatives from both the generation above me and the one below me are on FB...makes it quite difficult to find the "right" content to post. Which is why I mostly lurk on social media ;-)

Apologies if you've already discussed this and I just haven't read those comments yet, but what did you think about Robbie reading The Mill on the Floss in the cabin in Iceland?

I read that in high school and remember that the relationship between a brother and sister featured prominently. I kept thinking there must be some parallel between the two sibling relationships, but just don't remember The Mill on the Floss well enough to come up with it.

madrano wrote (msg 100): "I liked it for the outcome but i keep coming back to the fact that Lily (The House of Mirth) considered somewhat limited options. She didn't consider moving too far away from New York society, where she could develop new relationships."

I've never thought of that, Deb. I wonder if she thought that her chances of finding what she'd consider a suitable husband were greater if she remained in New York where she had friends who could help her circulate amongst the right crowd? Little did she know (view spoiler)[how easily these "friends" would throw her to the wolves (hide spoiler)]....

Joy wrote: "Hello, book buddies! I'm back and catching up on the thread. I've read through msg #100 and am going to start replying to a few. Hopefully I'm not jumping back into the discussion after you're both..."

Not at all. We look forward to your thoughts on the novel.

Joy wrote: "Apologies if you've already discussed this and I just haven't read those comments yet, but what did you think about Robbie reading The Mill on the Floss in the cabin in Iceland? ..."

Sorry, I haven't read it. I'm sure the author selected it for some reason.

Joy wrote: "Hello, book buddies! I'm back and catching up on the thread. I've read through msg #100 and am going to start replying to a few. Hopefully I'm not jumping back into the discussion after you're both..."POST 121

Not at all tired of talking about this (& any other book i've read)!

Your comments about expectations of self &/or society are sound. It's not that i think Isabel had a "Life List", with marriage and children being on it. Only that i think when she reached one goal, she opted to move on to another, likely which she saw in the lives of other successful people, and went for it.

I think you are correct about her recent understanding that marriage and children are difficult. Some marriages could just overlook the marriage, once the children arrive to take over the lives of their parents. Some marriages cannot, possibly because they haven't truly appreciated they are adults, the adults in the family. And the constancy of that can be overwhelming. In literature, we tend to see this more often in men, family breadwinners, who feel the onus of providing. It makes sense that Isabel would be the one to feel it more in this novel, as the wage earner. This is particularly so because she likely still has the societal ideas of who should be primary care givers to children.

Robbie, it seems to me, has become a part of her, filling in with Nathan & Violet when Isabel can't. Yes, i think that's a bit of a simplification but i also see it as partly valid. When/if he moves, this is one less fully responsible adult out of the care-taking life.

This didn't occur to me as we read the book, btw. It's only this further look into the choices which have me in this place. I could be way off, since i didn't, in fact, see it in the actual prose.

Joy wrote: "Apologies if you've already discussed this and I just haven't read those comments yet, but what did you think about Robbie reading The Mill on the Floss in the cabin in Iceland?..."

Would you believe i didn't even think about this? I was focused on what was happening, awaiting more about the pandemic, how he ended up in Iceland and such. Your comment led me to read the plot summary provided by Wiki--. Those siblings were close, as Robbie & Isabel appeared to be. However, their relationship fell apart. Possibly, this could have been ahead for Cunningham's siblings but i don't see that. Unless the Dan-Robbie thing became more pronounced.

Good catch on this front. I liked Mill, heck, i like all the George Eliot/Mary Ann Evans novels i've read.

Joy wrote: "I wonder if she thought that her chances of finding what she'd consider a suitable husband were greater if she remained in New York where she had friends who could help her circulate amongst the right crowd? ..."

This is about Lily Barth in House of Mirth. I think you are right there. It calls into question her creativity. It's likely just deciding about future husbands blew her mind in such a way that she set boundaries without even realizing it. How many of us do that?

Joy wrote: "If you only post the highlights reel, you're showing off or being inauthentic. If you post the bad/ugly, you're complaining and/or not appreciating what you have. If you post the mundane, you get the eyeroll...." POST 124

This is about social media, although i think we both zeroed in on Facebook. I only joined FB because my mother's family started a web page, sharing questions about ancestors, etc. Therefore, we are limited in what we share, unless we "friend" one another overall. Initially it was fun but, of course, we all highlighted the positive parts of our lives. Later, things got political, which kinda ended the pleasure.

Oddly, while i don't have many non-family friends, i have one from my politically active 2018, who is kinda prolific. While a great optimist, she has a marital & mental breakdown last year. So one day her posts are self-proclaiming about her victories, then next day it's negative self talking.

The final thing about posts that i wanted to share is about a family member. She married into the family and her husband, my (i barely knew him) cousin, died two years ago. I'm still not sure how to categorize her posts. Almost every day she reminds us that he died by posting a mostly positive post about how much she loves the fact they were once together & how she looks forward to their reunion in the afterlife.

As i wrote, i just don't know what to think about this. Cry for help? A way to publicly comfort herself? Something else entirely? I have not met the woman but she and my Very Christian late sister bonded over their faith. I do not comment on any posts, btw, so i'm asking what i should do. Only, wondering if she is unique or if someone else here knows people who do something similar?

Ok, this is wwwaaaayyyy off-base, so feel free to not reply to this one. :-)

Deb, I mostly use social media to follow things I'm interested in. For example, reading, authors, vegetarian recipes, health and exercise. I rarely post anything.

In Day they seemed to be using Instagram. On that site I do follow authors, publishing houses, and food. Things like that. I don't follow a person who I don't know like people seemed to do with Woolfe.

I use so little of what the Internet offers. FB is as far as i want to go now. I can see why folks would want more, but i can barely keep up with this ŷ������ group! ;-)��

Alias Reader wrote (msg 101): "I felt these characters were scared, depressed and sad. Sometimes people in those states feel the need for alcohol or drugs to ease their pain or they relapse back into bad habits."

I feel sorry for Dan. He gave up his rocker life to become the model of a "good family man" and still lost Isabel in the end.

He's not quite sure when he edged over from acting like an affable, harmless man and became an affable, harmless man. It seems to have occurred by imperceptible degrees. And this, by way of surprises: Isabel appreciates the man Dan has transformed himself into but is not all that interested in him.

He also lost Robbie, which is all the more painful because no one understands/acknowledges what they were to each other, which deprives him of the ability to mourn the true magnitude of his loss.

Robbie and Dan know they've become the central couple. Isabel is, increasingly, a dream they're having. They both know it. Robbie and Dan are the ones whose union is thriving, the ones who minister to each other, who are raising children together, who juggle the tasks, who want to know, each to the other, if they're all right, relatively speaking.

And I think he's lost himself as well. Maybe going back to drugs is an attempt to reclaim some of what he used to be, or maybe it's the only way he knows how to cope.

It's good enough that he does his best not to dwell on the idea of holding a dozen hothouse roses out to the world when he'd hoped to offer an ice pick sharp enough to pierce the skin of hte usual, to poke holes in the orderly progression of days.

madrano wrote (msg 119): "Poor Joy! i don't know how you'll keep up with them."

I have a notepad where I track the topics (and corresponding msg numbers) that I want to comment on/respond to :-)

I'm enjoying this discussion way more than I enjoyed the book!

madrano wrote (msg 129): "In literature, we tend to see this more often in men, family breadwinners, who feel the onus of providing. It makes sense that Isabel would be the one to feel it more in this novel, as the wage earner. This is particularly so because she likely still has the societal ideas of who should be primary care givers to children."

The reversal of traditional gender roles within a relationship and how that changes the division of household labor is really interesting. I'm the "breadwinner" in my family and several of my female friends are, as well. And it really isn't as straightforward as simply flipping the roles and responsibilities relative to the traditional paradigm.

madrano wrote (msg 132): "Almost every day she reminds us that he died by posting a mostly positive post about how much she loves the fact they were once together & how she looks forward to their reunion in the afterlife. As i wrote, i just don't know what to think about this. Cry for help? A way to publicly comfort herself? Something else entirely?"

It's really difficult to say...people post on social media for all kinds of reasons. Perhaps this is her way of keeping his memory alive. I have a friend who posts very personal things on social media. I think it's a way of sorting out her thoughts combined with a way of feeling seen/heard.

But I'm with you...I don't have the bandwidth to actively participate in too many different threads across different platforms. I do love Instagram, though. I never post and very rarely comment, but it's perfect for getting little daily doses of things I love: food porn, cute dogs, travel porn, cute dogs, bits of music/art...did I mention cute dogs? :D

Joy wrote: "I do love Instagram, though. I never post and very rarely comment, but it's perfect for getting little daily doses of things I love: food porn, cute dogs, travel porn, cute dogs, bits of music/art...did I mention cute dogs? :D.."

Joy, once you like those rescue dog videos on FB you get a ton of them in your feed. I don't mind as I love dogs and am always happy that they found their forever homes.

Joy wrote: post 135

I feel sorry for Dan. He gave up his rocker life to become the model of a "good family man" and still lost Isabel in the end."

He also lost Robbie, which is all the more painful because no one understands/acknowledges what they were to each other, which deprives him of the ability to mourn the true magnitude of his loss.

And I think he's lost himself as well. Maybe going back to drugs is an attempt to reclaim some of what he used to be, or maybe it's the only way he knows how to cope.


I agree 100%. I think Dan was the character I found the most sympathy for.

As to the drugs, drug use and alcohol use skyrocketed during the pandemic. Add in his marital woes and losing his music prospects and I can see how this happened. I was sad when I read the section of him turning back to drugs.

Joy wrote: "Robbie and Dan are the ones whose union is thriving, the ones who minister to each other, who are raising children together, who juggle the tasks, who want to know, each to the other, if they're all right, relatively speaking...."

This is the best part. Together, they have a good marriage. And the children accept it, Nathan lesser, obviously, but he's beginning to be the age when children don't automatically accept things.

The fact that Dan was returning to drug use was concerning. I don't believe we were told when it began. Alias, i appreciate your comments about drug use increase during the pandemic. Somehow that escaped my notice.

When i think about it, i suppose Dan has experienced most of the changes post-confinement. Loss of Robbie and his marriage, as well as, one presumes, a need to find a job or fiscal support.

Joy wrote: "I'm enjoying this discussion way more than I enjoyed the book!..."

LOL--true for me, too!

Joy wrote: "And it really isn't as straightforward as simply flipping the roles and responsibilities relative to the traditional paradigm..."POST 137

Excellent point, Joy. First, good for you. I hope you find your work fulfilling, if not the job itself, then the life it provides you. I felt we got a sense of Isabel's past pleasure in her work. Knowing it was ebbing could be a part of why she saw her world differently, too, now that i think about it.

From my own past, i wonder what people expected when more women entered the workforce in then non-traditional jobs. Many complained of taking on another job, as they were in charge of the house/children, as much as ever. So much had to be overcome. Why would that end? Just new challenges.

Is it odd that almost all the women i knew who worked outside the home were feminists? Meaning, their husbands learned they had to share the care of home & family. Those of us like me, who stayed home (i had no career or skills for outside jobs), were more accommodating. However, some of the "stay-at-homes" i knew made certain their spouses shared non-traditional home & child care jobs, too. It was probably more important to us that the children saw dads cleaning the floors, cooking and such, for role modeling purposes.

But oh! some of the arguments on all sides about men doing the work! This was a new world for many guys we knew. It was easier to adjust to their partners building careers or working outside the home, bringing home money, than it was for them to "help" with the home-work.

Joy wrote: "I have a friend who posts very personal things on social media. I think it's a way of sorting out her thoughts combined with a way of feeling seen/heard..."POST 138

I agree with you. Honestly, even though i am curious about the woman who posts her mental issues, because she has a following, i think it's healthy for others to read. She still has her hand in politics, so it illustrates the challenge.

While i follow rabbit holes, thanks primarily to something i read in a book or see in a film, i don't just get lost in them. Or maybe i forget, once i'm done. For instance, recently Facebook has been showing me all sorts of random topics--vintage films, Atlas Obscura, political points, and on.

However, the only one i ever remember being so excited about was just last week, when i found the "Irish Megalithic Research Group", as they call themselves. As far as i can tell, they only exist on Facebook but they offer all sorts of photos, history and suppositions about many of the rock structures apparently constructed by humans in the distant past. When we visited Ireland in '17, we were fascinated by them. (Think Stonhenge, but smaller.)

ANYway, it is for such things that i am grateful for the Internet. And despite all the darkness since created by it, there are these joys that we can locate to brighten our day. Cute dogs, astronomical shots, food--no complaints here. If only we could automatically have the filth and hatred deleted!

Alias Reader wrote (msg 139): "Joy, once you like those rescue dog videos on FB you get a ton of them in your feed. I don't mind as I love dogs and am always happy that they found their forever homes."

I'm with you--I never tire of seeing the happy ending videos and want to go adopt every adorable pup that's still waiting for a forever home!

madrano wrote (msg 143): "First, good for you. I hope you find your work fulfilling, if not the job itself, then the life it provides you."

Thank you, Deb. You're very sweet!

Sincerely meant.

I presume we've all moved onto other books. Any concluding thoughts?

For me, the book failed, despite the fact there were many chapters and lines which pleased me. The beginning caught me right up, starting with that owl! I'm still unclear what the idea, point, of the book was. There seemed to be no resolution and dropping into these particular lives wasn't really rewarding.

The reward, as we've mentioned several times, was sharing thoughts with this Buddy Read group. Reading what others thought and wrote about the novel helped me see aspects i hadn't. However, none of that really helped my overall impression.

Thank you for sharing this reading adventure with me!

As I wrote in my write up in the Book Salon, I did enjoy the novel and gave it a 4/5 rating.

Thank you, Joy, for bringing the book to my attention.

I also enjoyed the Buddy Read ! I haven't done one in awhile.

Alias Reader, I'm so glad you enjoyed the novel! My experience with this book was closer to yours, Deb. I didn't dislike it, but I also didn't feel I got a lot out of it beyond a few passages that particularly resonated with me.

Last night, I watched the interview with Michael Cunningham that Alias Reader mentioned in msg 37. I was surprised by two things. First, the interview was as much, if not more, about Michael Cunningham and the ideation/process behind the book than about the book itself. Second, I didn't hear anything major that we hadn't already come up with and discussed.

Michael Cunningham seems like a nice person (although I did end up playing it on 1.25X to make him speak faster, lol) but I'm not interested in him per se (this is where my inner misanthrope rears its head). I had thought he would peel back the layers and reveal deeper insights that I had missed, but it seems what we saw was all there was.

So now I'm feeling that the book didn't quite meet expectations, and the discussion of the book by the author also didn't quite meet expectations, which is a bit meta.

Joy wrote: "Michael Cunningham seems like a nice person (although I did end up playing it on 1.25X to make him speak faster, lol) but I'm not interested in him per se (this is where my inner misanthrope rears its head). ..."

Laughing on both counts, Joy.

I don't listen to author interviews, primarily because i am usually disappointed. However, i think it's a mood thing--if i want personal, they give me the book. If i want the book, they give me personal. I don't know what inner-being that is...perhaps self-defeating?

Regardless, thanks for sharing your conclusions on the interview. And the book!