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Hi everyone! How are you guys enjoying Benji's narration? It's... unusual, eh?
Please tell us what you think of Benji as a character, a narrator and how he fits into the structure of the novel! Please contain your commentary to the Benji section; - we'll deal with storyline spoilers in the last thread when things become a bit more clear.

EDIT: Threads to be found here:

Thread 1. Benji . April Seventh, 1928 . /topic/show/...

Thread 2. Quentin. June Second, 1910. /topic/show/...

Thread 3. Jason . April Sixth, 1928. /topic/show/...

Thread 4. Omniscient Narrator. April Eighth, 1928. /topic/show/...

Thread 5. End spoiler discussion . /topic/show/...

Goodness! I read a lot of Latin American Authors from the 60s and '70s, and the way they manipulated narrators, points of view, and nonlinear narration, all of which obligate the reader to participate in the production of meaning, really engaged me as a reader (plus the fact that I was doing it in another language made it extra challenging sometimes). But this is beyond anything that they did!
I don't think, were it not for looking something up, I would have understood that this is Benji at several points in his life. It would have been confusing to figure out who the three characters were, the three different caretakers. Does that mean it's very accomplished? Or doesn't mean that this was the beginning of a new narrative style, and perhaps Faulkner didn't nail it because we can't understand without context?
I'm also thinking that, to a certain extent, this is a perspective on family events and history that might be the most disinterested. I'll have to write more when I'm on a computer, since I can't view/scroll to edit this post when I'm on my phone

Linda wrote: "I don't think, were it not for looking something up, I would have understood that this is Benji at several points in his life.."

That is exactly what happened to me. I have been thinking, though that perhaps the first time one should go in cold, and the magic of the whole thing is that it only falls into place at the end, much like Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun cycle.

EDIT: ...but ok, I also got exasperated, because not much seemed to make sense

If I may introduce another spoiler that doesn't take away too much from the story line please.
Were it not for some additional reading at the outset, I honestly doubt that I could've ploughed through the first 30 pages, let alone contemplated joining this group.
The reading just happened to be part of the edition I have in hand Viz. Norton Critical Edition.
The introduction to one of the most pivotal characters and the motivation for why Faulkner invested so much into
the character, is undoubtedly the center point to where I started from and will continue to focus. Should anyone want me clarity, please advise and I will elaborate. (it isn't it Benji)
ps. The title comes from Macbeth
"a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury".

oops! just realised why Mishek posted from Macbeth Act 5.. (ipso facto is a real thing! )
However the "signifying nothing" -which I omitted, apparently reflects the chaos and futility experienced by the Compton family.

Bonitaj wrote: "If I may introduce another spoiler that doesn't take away too much from the story line please.
Were it not for some additional reading at the outset, I honestly doubt that I could've ploughed thro..."

Those Norton Critical Editions are absolutely fantastic, aren't they? Yes, I have mine lying next to me on my desk, but I've grown so lazy to read treebooks that I've been consulting my e-books instead. I'm glad to hear that it's helping you through this. Believe it or not, the first time I read through Benji it was stone cold right into the deep end with no supplemental matter.

But since most of us are casting around for side commentary in any case, I do want to say a thing or two about Benji. Although the story isn't just about Benji, apparently his viewpoint was a very important one for Faulkner. For some of the story, Faulkner was looking through the eyes of children and wanting to portray how the magical innocence of children has to make way for the harsh realities of adulthood. He then had the thought of how it would be if you never had to grow up; never had to lose your innocence by always remaining a child- and the idea of Benji was born.

Voltaire also used the trope of the "innocent idiot" with his character of Candide, and though Dostoevsky's "idiot" is not a literal idiot, he is also a character portraying the goodness of innocence, which is something we see in Benji as well.

I do feel a slight bit discomfited by the fact that so many of us are consulting side materials - I just hope it won't take away the feeling of how it must have been for Faulkner's original readers who went through a confusing experience and had to make sense of it by themselves, but I suppose nothing is going to change that - one has only one life to live after all, and there are still so many books to read out there. 😂

What I'm trying to say, I think, is it would be cool if, at least initially, we try and immerse ourselves in the reading of the actual novel, and see how it strikes us - us ourselves and not what some scholar or critic had to say.

Linda wrote: ". It would have been confusing to figure out who the three characters were, the three different caretakers. ..."

I actually did manage to figure it out, but not the timeline so much, and there is something extremely confusing that I didn't manage to figure out at first - I'll put clues to those in spoiler brackets oh posh, we don't need spoiler brackets, this is a spoiler thread after all:

Luckily there are devices that Faulkner used to navigate the different time periods. Firstly when the narration jumps in time, he puts a sentence or two in italics to signify this, and secondly, he uses leitmotifs to indicate in which era we are finding ourselves in. (view spoiler)[ For example Luster’s search for his lost dime and desire to go the carnival always indicate Benjy’s present in 1928, and references to ‘sarsaparilla�� indicate that we find ourselves in the day of Caddy’s marriage in 1910. (hide spoiler)]

Also, re Quentin: (view spoiler)[ There are two Quentins, a man and a girl, and that part is terribly confusing! (hide spoiler)]

Bonitaj wrote: "The introduction to one of the most pivotal characters and the motivation for why Faulkner invested so much into the character, is undoubtedly the center point to where I started from and will continue to focus. Should anyone want me clarity, please advise and I will elaborate. (it isn't it Benji).."

If you are dying to divulge it, Bonitaj, can you hold on to it a little bit and I will go and make those other threads I promised. I will let you know and link to them once done. I just hope you won't have problems linking again, but we'll get there by hook or by crook! 👍

hello Traveller - Respectfully, to address your comment about "trying to immerse ourselves in the reading of the actual novel", I agree and yet, to those that are "drowning" in the sense of overwhelming chaos and the distortion it creates, these external resources offer a bulwark. I didn't elaborate on what the anchor was for me, but I would at some point wish to introduce it to the discussion - to flesh out its significance in Faulkner's writing of the novel.
Ps. To use the analogy of
"Putting the cart before the horse"
The method of transport is stationary but there's so much sustenance in the cart, it's worth the temporary inversion! ;)
Thanks for bearing with me.

ps. I posted my comment prior to reading yours but don't worry "the "secret is safe with me" :)
I look forward to all your additional material as always, given it is so thoroughly researched! Thanks

Hmm, in ye olden days of GR, one could set up an entire group and all the threads in it, all in the space of an hour, but now that it's become so... commercialised, I'm getting a robot check with Captcha tests if I try to open too many threads at once, so you might have to be patient yet a little bit longer, sorry!

Bonitaj wrote: "hello Traveller - Respectfully, to address your comment about "trying to immerse ourselves in the reading of the actual novel", I agree and yet, to those that are "drowning" in the sense of overwhe..."

In the meantime... yeah, you see, this is one of the typical characteristics of the novel that makes me want to put it into the Po-mo category. With postmodernist works, the authors tends to be playful and can sometimes play with the reader like a cat with a mouse...

I can see you're a mouse that doesn't like to be played with, Bonitaj! 😂

Seriously, though, besides the confusedness of the narration, what about the narrator do you feel yourself reading through the lines, Bonitaj, Linda and other members?
This makes me think of reading Nabokov, who loves to create thoroughly unlikeable narrators whom you end up loving to hate.

For instance, do you think that Faulkner managed to create a convincing 'idiot" (I suppose in today's terms he would have been either autistic or have a "learning disability").
Any professional opinions on that aspect, Bonitaj?

Ok, here is a little map to the other threads; - I'll also edit this into the first message on this thread, as well as the first message of the convening thread.

EDIT: Threads to be found here:

Thread 1. Benji . April Seventh, 1928 . /topic/show/...

Thread 2. Quentin. June Second, 1910. /topic/show/...

Thread 3. Jason . April Sixth, 1928. /topic/show/...

Thread 4. Omniscient Narrator. April Eighth, 1928. /topic/show/...

Thread 5. End spoiler discussion . /topic/show/...

Traveller wrote: "Linda wrote: ". It would have been confusing to figure out who the three characters were, the three different caretakers. ..."

I actually did manage to figure it out, but not the timeline so much,..."

I had only seen the wiki page (plot/characters, nothing else). I thought that about what you put in the spoiler, though I'm not 100% certain that he's consistent with it. The jumps are way too frequent.

Ok, let me make some comments: I find it interesting how Faulkner tries to imagine how Benji would see things, while at the same time giving the reader clues regarding what it is that Benji is talking about; for example, right at the start, one is not too sure what the 'hitting' is about. Is it boxing? Is it baseball? ...and then you realize; oh, no, it must be gholf - Benji calls the gholf course a pasture? And, delicious play on word and name, there is talk of a 'caddie' and of course, if the flag wasn't a dead giveaway, then Luster's talk of 'finding balls' surely must be, that this is the game of gholf they are witnessing.

Oh, and "hitting little," is of course putting. Ha, I love it.

I love how Faulkner makes you work, forces you to become a detective of sorts.

Oh, and how you deduce from what Luster says that Benji is 'moaning'. I also love how very sense-oriented his narration is; everything is bright and vivid and in the here and now, just like you're supposed to be during "mindfulness". I must say that I find his narration quite delightful, very much that of the ingenu.

Oh, and Faulkner suggests right away that we are witnessing a very child-like thirty-three year old here, by cleverly mentioning the birthday cake with 33 candles on it. ...and everything is told to us in a roundabout way, for example the fact that Benji is taller than Luster, is conveyed by : "My shadow was higher than Luster’s on the fence."

...then we go back in time, to where they were children, with the following passages in italics:

"Caddy uncaught me and we crawled through. Uncle Maury said to not let anybody see us, so we better stoop over, Caddy said. Stoop over, Benjy. Like this, see. We stooped over and crossed the garden, where the flowers rasped and rattled against us. The ground was hard. We climbed the fence, where the pigs were grunting and snuffing. I expect they’re sorry because one of them got killed today, Caddy said. The ground was hard, churned and knotted. Keep your hands in your pockets, Caddy said. Or they’ll get froze. You don't want your hands froze on Christmas, do you. "

So, for example, here is a clear back-and-forth in time, where it clearly starts off with Benji being 33 and taller than Luster, then jumping to Benji and his sister Caddy crawling through the fence at Christmas-time.

Have you guys read Mrs. Dalloway by Virginia Woolf? In it, the narration is also stream-of-consciousness by various narrators, and the cool thing is, that in Mrs Dalloway, there is always some link geographically when the narration jumps from one person to the next.

Here in Benji's narration, it seems as if he is jumping from time to time based on things that are happening that then remind him of another time, for example, now, as a 33-year old, he crawls through the fence and gets snagged, which reminds him of when he and Caddy crawled through and he got snagged.
She then mentions him keeping his hands warm, which then reminds him of another time, when Versh told him to keep his hands warm: "The gate was cold. “You better keep them hands in your pockets.�� Versh said. “You get them froze onto that gate, then what you do".

Then there's suddenly a jump back to the present or yet another time, again, with: What are you moaning about, Luster said. You can watch them again when we get to the branch. Here. Here’s you a jimson weed. He gave me the flower. We went through the fence, into the lot.

Then back to another time again, the close to Xmas time, with:

““What is it.�� Caddy said. “What are you trying to tell Caddy. Did they send him out, Versh.�� “Couldn’t keep him in.�� Versh said. “He kept on until they let him go and he come right straight down here, looking through the gate.�� “What is it.�� Caddy said. “Did you think it would be Christmas when I came home from school. Is that what you thought. Christmas is the day after tomorrow. Santy Claus, Benjy. Santy Claus."

Ok, let's cheat a bit here. Admittedly the different servants can be confusing, so let's peek at a cheat sheet about how the servants fit together. (Heaven knows we have enough other things to try and figure out ;) )

Dilsey is one of the oldest black servants of the Compson family. Her husband is Roskus. Their children are Versh, (a bit older), and Frony and T.P., who are younger, and are about the age of the Compson kids. Luster is (view spoiler)[ Dilsey's grandchild, (Frony's son) so he's actually younger than Benji. (Something which I admittedly never caught on to) (Although the clues are clear on the day that Benji was around 15 - which was also the day of the wedding, if I got it right, because Luster was a baby there). (hide spoiler)]

Ok, and how about we try to separate the different timelines a bit:
First there is what seems to be the present, where Benji watched gholf and is 33 years old. Let's call that 33.

Then there is a time when Caddy was still a schoolgirl and it's just before Christmas.

Then there's the day when Benji and their (view spoiler)[ pain-in-the -arse (hide spoiler)] mother get into the carriage and the mother is fussing terribly while the little girl Quentin is left playing with Luster at the house.

Ok, over to you guys. My fingers are sore from typing now. ;)

Here's another very clear transition from his 33rd birthday back to when they were all children, and the latter is very explicitly stated here (Caddy is only seven), and heck, the transition happens right in the middle of a sentence!!:

“Sit down.�� I sat down and he took off my shoes and rolled up my trousers. “Now, git in that water and play and see can you stop that slobbering and moaning.�� I hushed and got in the water and Roskus came and said to come to supper and Caddy said, It’s not supper time yet. I’m not going. She was wet. We were playing in the branch and Caddy squatted down and got her dress wet and Versh said, “Your mommer going to whip you for getting your dress wet.�� “She’s not going to do any such thing.�� Caddy said. “How do you know.�� Quentin said. “That’s all right how I know.�� Caddy said. “How do you know.�� “She said she was.�� Quentin said. “Besides, I’m older than you.�� “I’m seven years old.�� Caddy said. “I guess I know.�� “I’m older than that.�� Quentin said. “I go to school. Dont I, Versh.��

Any comments, anybody?

Linda wrote: "I'm not 100% certain that he's consistent with it. The jumps are way too frequent...."

Yeah, I didn't mean to say that he puts italics on every jump, but he often does. Other times he does give other clues, indeed, like mentioning their ages, and so on. Also, the italics aren't consistently applied to the same era; sometimes they're in front of jumping back to the future again. To me that's a bit of a flaw; since it's not really consistent, as you say.

Hmmm, and yet they -do- mark the transitions that would have been simply too confusing without them, like the jumping between the scene where as a 7 year old girl Caddy gets her dress wet, and the weird scene in the barn? at the wedding where "T.P." is obviously drunk and it looks like Benji as well, and back again to where the kids get home after Caddy got her dress wet; note there is a small bit of italics there between every jump.

Bonitaj wrote: "I didn't elaborate on what the anchor was for me, but I would at some point wish to introduce it to the discussion - to flesh out its significance in Faulkner's writing of the novel...."

Perhaps add it here under spoiler tags, Bonitaj? ...or is it not really a spoiler as such? I must admit that you have me very curious now! Or if it relates to the book's storyline as a whole, how about you put it in the end discussion here?

/topic/show/...

Traveller wrote: "Here's another very clear transition from his 33rd birthday back to when they were all children, and the latter is very explicitly stated here (Caddy is only seven), and heck, the transition happen..."

That one mid sentence did indeed get my attention!

People, I've actually been feeling bad, because of my wanting to stick to my way of doing the reading/discussion, when that is perhaps not what the group wants or needs. If you guys feel better bringing in outside aid via additional reading, by all means, let's do so!
I was thinking that perhaps the best way to find more sense in Benji's stream-of-consciousness narration, would be to tease out and separate the different chronological points in the timeline of the story that Benji jumps around to and from all the time?

Would you like to do it in this thread, or a separate one so that we can keep revisiting that thread as we make progress?

..and by all means bring in your complimentary reading, I apologize if I sounded as if I was discouraging it - I was just afraid that if we spent all of our time on reading ABOUT the novel, that we may perhaps not make any progress with the novel itself, but as Bonitaj said, perhaps Faulkner went a bit over the top in demanding too much of his reader, and it would benefit us to take note of explanations that would help us along.

I'm fine doing that here. And personally, while several of my groups do include people who research things (I have more time for it than I used to), I always hated it when someone always finished the book before the beginning of the discussion date, read other sources, and then just cut and paste and dumped a lot of info on people. When one person was publishing post after post that was paragraphs long with information that they had researched someplace, it kind of killed the discussion. But it's certainly helpful here, and very necessary with this particular book. So I'm fine with that.

Traveller wrote: "Bonitaj wrote: "If I may introduce another spoiler that doesn't take away too much from the story line please.
Were it not for some additional reading at the outset, I honestly doubt that I could'..."

This is a first time read for me, going in cold, and the way this section is written it seems like he is a young child, but then his age is revealed. The number of characters makes it really confusing past the first few pages.

Traveller wrote: "Bonitaj wrote: "hello Traveller - Respectfully, to address your comment about "trying to immerse ourselves in the reading of the actual novel", I agree and yet, to those that are "drowning" in the ..."

To me (and having worked for years with individuals with intellectual disabilities or autism) Benji seems convincing. The repetition, the short phrasing, the repeated focus on things like smells.

Traveller wrote: "...then we go back in time, to where they were children, with the following passages in italics:

"Caddy uncaught me and we crawled through. Uncle Maury said to not let anybody see us, so we better..."

the time jump escaped me!

Traveller wrote: "Ok, let's cheat a bit here. Admittedly the different servants can be confusing, so let's peek at a cheat sheet about how the servants fit together. (Heaven knows we have enough other things to try ..."

Thank you! Character cheat sheet super helpful!

Traveller wrote: "Here's another very clear transition from his 33rd birthday back to when they were all children, and the latter is very explicitly stated here (Caddy is only seven), and heck, the transition happen..."

At this point I felt like I needed to make a chart!

Traveller wrote: "People, I've actually been feeling bad, because of my wanting to stick to my way of doing the reading/discussion, when that is perhaps not what the group wants or needs. If you guys feel better bri..."

My plan is to read each section cold, and then do the ancillary reading to catch up!

Dianne, you're a lot braver than I am. Given my penchant for psychology, I'm often reminded of Freudian wisdom that maintains:
"The soul cannot hide what the behaviour reveals". This I have applied to the author's motivation in certain themes.
Dianne, I sense your reluctance I just wish I could override it with this one superimposed revelation...? It gives nothing away of the story line but rather matures conceptually, as you read along. Yes, once you're aware of it, it'll stand out. I think we should take a vote....?

Ok, in response to the above, I've thought about it, and doing the timeline here might then make it hard to find it every time, as we continue posting messages, because believe it or not, I think there is actually more to say about Benji.
Also, as Bonitaj points out in the next thread, time, the passage of time, and chronology is a very important element of this novel, so how about we do a thread just on the time element! I'm sorry to dump so many threads on you, but I love keeping things neat and tidy and easy to access from a central point. :P

PS, just click on the header right on top of this page: FAULKNER'S SOUTH- SOUND and FURY to get to the central place from which you can click on any of the sub-threads.

Dianne wrote: "My plan is to read each section cold, and then do the ancillary reading to catch up!."

Yes, I like to do that, and sometimes as I go along to look up relevant bits of history that may become necessary for full understanding of what I am reading. Glad that the bit of input helped clarify. The thing is that this is my second time through Benji, so I was nervous of spoiling that full-on bewildering and confusing effect that the first time of starting with Benji can cause - but I think we all know now what that feels like! 😅

Apologies, I'll have to do the timeline thread tomorrow, ran out of time for today. If anybody else is eager to start on it here, in the meantime, I/we can always copy and paste the material to the time thread.

Bonitaj wrote: " I just wish I could override it with this one superimposed revelation...? It gives nothing away of the story line but rather matures conceptually, as you read along. Yes, once you're aware of it, it'll stand out. I think we should take a vote....?..."

I would vote you put it in the end discussion thread, and then we can expand on it there, since we'll be taking an overview of the novel in that thread in any case - does that sound like a plan?

Good enough! Thanks

Timeline plot structure thread made, please access it here: /topic/show/...

Bonitaj wrote: "Good enough! Thanks"
Bonitaj, please just post your message here; the suspense is killing me! And like you say, knowing about your angle would probably enrich our reading of the novel, so please share!

Oh, and don't worry if you've not read the entire Benji yet, I didn't put any big picture spoilers in the first message there; I thought we could develop the plotline message by message; so if you're not past a certain point, simply stop at the point up to where you've read. So far I only put down what one can figure out from the first 20 pages or so.
And please, people, contribute! 🙏

Oh, and I remember seeing somewhere that Proust had been one of Faulkner's influences, and of course Proust is big on memory, the passage of time and how memories are stimulated by the senses - so, we seem to get that Benji's various memories are stirred by what he sees, feels and smells, and his sense of smell seems to play quite a big role; for example where he mentions that Caddy smells of trees, and there are various other places where he mentions what he smells.

Oh, ok, and the children's father's name is Jason ; and of course they have an "Uncle Maury" that is often mentioned, who is their mother, Caroline's (“Miss Cahline") brother. They call their grandmother "Damuddy".

Of the four children, Quentin is the oldest, then Jason, then Caddy, and Benji is the youngest.

Does anybody have any idea what it is that Benjy keeps smelling on the night of Damuddy's death? Is it vomit, blood, urine, or death itself?

A couple of things "real quick"!
a) just got to this at my bedtime... so I'm sorry. Will post info. tomorrow. I am trying to avoid the copy/paste thing that some object to and add more of a personal perspective.
Interesting comments above btw. Thanks Traveller. Just an observation. "Damuddy"... immediately resonated with me. My husband is German speaking, so I'm quite familiar with the language. In good German it would be written as Die (feminine article) Mutter.
Muttie would then be more of a child like version. Faulkner has quite a bit to say on the children's search for "mothering". She represented some form of nurturing for them, hence the attachment.

Traveller wrote: "Oh, ok, and the children's father's name is Jason ; and of course they have an "Uncle Maury" that is often mentioned, who is their mother, Caroline's (“Miss Cahline") brother. They call their grand..."
Benjy's nane originally was Maury after his uncle; when his disabilities were discovered, they insisted on changing his name.

Bonitaj wrote: "A couple of things "real quick"!
a) just got to this at my bedtime... so I'm sorry. Will post info. tomorrow. I am trying to avoid the copy/paste thing that some object to and add more of a persona..."
That tracks!