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1. Use this question to share your thoughts and comments that arise while reading the novel, "along the way." Or to discuss topics not raised by other questions.

I have noticed that von le Fort is strongly influenced in this book by the German culture in which she lived. This can be seen, for example:
a) In her contrast between "culture" and "civilization." She took this from Oswald Spengler's The Decline of the West, and is not seen in other authors, such as Toynbee, Kroeber or Sorokin. Her pejorative use of the word "civilization" is a clear sign of this.
b) In her frequent citing of German authors, as if they were well known by everybody.
c) In her assertion that "the outstanding period of German genius corresponds to the Ottonian... This period is contemporary also with the zenith epoch of the German people." I don't think many historians, some of them German, would agree with this.

This is my review of this book:
/review/show...

Manuel wrote: "I have noticed that von le Fort is strongly influenced in this book by the German culture in which she lived. This can be seen, for example:
a) In her contrast between "culture" and "civilization."..."

Hi, I'm not reading the book, but to encourage the discussion I would like to comment on two aspects of it. I agree with the Professor that Gertrude von Le Fort's image of women may have become obsolete. Gertrude von Le Fort is like some apologists and Catholic writers who did not take into account the imminence of the sexual revolution that changed everything. Now, if the West continues to exist (which I doubt) because the United States may be saved, but Europe is doomed and will soon be just another Muslim continent. If we survive, I do not rule out that the exaltation of motherhood will become fashionable again. Because there cannot be a society if there is not first a cell called a family that allows society to exist.

That is in relation to the family and the fact that the woman will be nothing if she is not a mother (the fair thing would be to find a balance and not stigmatize single women, or those who do not have children) however, there are curious positions on this issue such as Ayako Sono in Japan who defends that when women are mothers they should stop working (be careful, I am not defending her position and, I do not agree with her, I am just exposing it). The next point is my field (that of historian). The Professor pointed out that many historians would not agree that Germany's heyday was with the Ottonian dynasty. But what would that era be? The Aufklaurer (eighteenth century) with Frederick II of Prussia a man without religion, and with a project that is very close to totalitarianism? Frederick II lacked empathy and considered his kingdom as a kind of garden in which everything belonged to him and everyone was his subjects. This man and his father Frederick William I were the fathers of German militarism. The second moment could be with Wilhelm I where Germany achieves German unification and easily defeats Denmark (Schlewig Holstein), Austria in the battle of Sadowa and France in the battles of Metz and Sedan, but of course this was due to the genius of a man Otto von Bismarck when Wilhelm II stopped counting on him Germany went straight to disaster and, he lost the possibility of disputing world hegemony with England and, this led us to the disaster of the Great War. Another period with the Salian dynasties and, the Hohestaufen both Frederick I Barbarossa and Frederick II Stauffer won many victories but at the cost of confronting the Catholic Church in a sterile struggle that would lead the German Empire to disaster. Apart from the fact that Frederick II, apart from his anti-ecclesiastical policy, has another very big mistake: not having gone to face the Mongols who threatened their subjects in the battle of Lignica. Germany, Poland and Hungary were saved because Ogodai died. Otherwise I don't want to imagine what would have happened. It is true that the Mongols were not so unbeatable, but they still had time to destroy Alamut (the headquarters of the assassins), end the caliphate of Baghdad and, if it were not for the Mamluk Qutuz I do not know who could have stopped them. Frederick II Staufer was more interested in Italian affairs and his struggle with the papacy than in what was happening in Germany (therefore neither he nor his grandfather can be considered as Germany's moment of splendor).
With Charles V it could have been, but Charles V had a more than effective nominal power and could not turn Germany into a centralized country like France and England or a country as powerful as Spain. Charles IV Luxembourg and Sigismund I are the fathers of Germany, but Sigismund, despite his very good ideas, had more successes than failures in Nicopolis (1396) and the Hussite revolt. Although indirectly it was the one that allowed the Habsburgs to be the reigning dynasty in Germany until the arrival of Napoleon. Therefore, Gertrude von Le Fort's idea of considering Germany's period of splendor the age of the Ottonids does not seem far-fetched to me. Otto I, faced with the power vacuum of the Carolingians, gained enormous prestige, defeated the Hungarians, put an end to the corruption of Rome and, although he deposed a pope, he did so for the good of the Church and imposed a non-aggressive conception of temporal power. Thanks to the Ottons, vassal kingdoms such as Denmark, Poland and Bohemia were created under their protection. He came closer to the Byzantine idea of power and closer relations with Byzantium and his rights were almost fairer than those of Charlemagne. Otto III was not far from realizing his utopia and, although he failed, that did not tarnish the prestige of the dynasty and, I want to remind you that the Ottonids end up with a saintly king, Henry II the birder. I don't see that what Gertrude von Le Fort proposes is so far-fetched despite what many historians think.
About what the Professor says that she is very influenced by the history of her country. That is precisely one of his achievements. I want to remind you that in this group we read �A Postcard from the Volcano: A Novel of Pre-War Germany� de Lucy Beckett and, if this novel had a flaw, it is that I did not know the history of Germany or its literature, something that Gertrud von le Fort does. For me Le Fort is very useful because it helps us to know the history of Germany and its genuine Catholicism. On the subject of German influence, read his novel German Crown where he explores the influence of Catholicism on German Romanticism Der Kranz der Engel

Fonch wrote: " The Professor pointed out that many historians would not agree that Germany's heyday was with the Ottonian dynasty. But what would that era be?"

Fonch, in your analysis of German history you have focused on politics. But to decide which was the heyday of a country one should look at culture. For instance, the great epoch in German science was between 1750 and 1950. In philosophy, the twelfth-thirteenth century and the same period as for science. In literature, the thirteenth and between 1750 and 1850. In music, 1550-1750 and 1850-1950. So, taking into account all the cultural branches, I'd say that the heyday for Germany was the 19th century.

This is a very "dense" book. I'm glad it's short, will take several re-readings.

I'm not sure what she means by "sibyl"

However existed a thing called Ottonids Renassaince and Cathedrals i do not study in history of art but it was told and abbeys as Gorze.

There is a famous nun of the X century called Hroswitha of Gandersheim. Not all wisdom is of the century XIII, XVIII-XIX 😉. Besides is Luitprando of Cremona. I have to watch the Ottonides chuches.
Jill Sybil won't be the famous Roman Profetess. She was famous for her prophecies.

Fonch wrote: "However existed a thing called Ottonids Renassaince and Cathedrals i do not study in history of art but it was told and abbeys as Gorze."

Fonch, I was not denying that there was some German cultural effort with the Ottonids. I was just saying that this was not the heyday of the German culture. Your mentioning this person and such other cultural effort (considered by most to be secondary in comparison to others) is not a proof against what I was saying.

Jill wrote: "I'm not sure what she means by "sibyl""



A sibyl was the Roman equivalent of the Greek Pythia.

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "However existed a thing called Ottonids Renassaince and Cathedrals i do not study in history of art but it was told and abbeys as Gorze."

Fonch, I was not denying that there was some..."

This I'm not a very intelligent person, but I knew this nun. The idea I have is that people are intelligent and that they know infinitely more than a humble servant. Therefore, if I know her, people who are wiser than I must know Roswita. In fact, I'm liking this debate (because that's what it is) that I don't rule out making a video on my Youtube channel about what is Germany's best moment. In this case, I allow myself to disagree with my fellow historians, to whose guild I belong, and I believe that, in spite of this, it is not unreasonable to consider the best period of Germany the time of the Ottonids. It is a time when Germany was very clear about what was right and what was wrong. Something that Westphalia is not clear about. Let's be honest, I don't despise philosophy, music, science, or other artistic disciplines, but political stability is absolutely necessary. What good is it to have a Goethe, to have a Schiller if people are still crushed by the boot of the most harmful feudalism and the country has not managed to be a centralized country like France, Spain and England? Nor can one agree with supporting the post-1870 nationalist wave that we already know ended in. As for philosophy, has there been any non-destructive contribution after Descartes? I think so, but those philosophers who could be positive have been pushed into a corner while others are promoted who are leading us to our own destruction. The best time when Germany did the right thing was the time of the Ottonids, in that Gertrud von Le Fort (who is German) who has a very clear idea of what her country is like, is not wrong.
By the way, I want to recommend, although unfortunately it is not in English, the wonderful novel by the brother of the former minister "The World Between Scripts El mundo entre guiones" by Jesús Trillo-Figueroa Martínez-Conde(there is that philosophical thought that is worth rescuing).

By the way, yesterday I was at the Tree of Letters at the presentation of a book called Great Enemies of Rome and, one of the topics that came out was that of Germany. We thought that if Germany had been Romanized, the history of the world would have been vastly different from today, and many of the horrors would not have come to pass. It based me on Hilaire Belloc's wonderful book "Europe and the Faith"

I will try to explain why I think Gertrud von Le Fort says what she says about the Ottonian revival. All peoples have a mission and each one contributes something to History. What I more or less think Gertrud von Le Fort is saying is that if the Germans had remained faithful to the Catholic heritage of the Ottons. Germany would have been spared the humiliation of the Investiture Dispute, leading it to a historic humiliation and, to a crisis that called into question its existence, see the Interregnum. If he had remained faithful to the Ottons, he would not have fallen into the clutches of the Hussites and, after Protestantism (many of the evils, if not almost all) come from that heresiarch, the German apostate Martin Luther. If the Habsburgs had completed the work of the Ottos and the Luxembourgs, Germany could have been a centralized state and could have contributed greater things to the world and balanced European politics by counterbalancing the power of France. If he had followed the policy of the Ottomen there would have been no conflicts between Germans, Slavs, Scandinavians and Hungarians or otherwise. Bismarck's dream of greater Germany together with Austria and possibly even Hungary and Bohemia would have been realized. Let's imagine all those great artists, thinkers, philosophers if they had been Catholics. All the good that could have been done and the evil that could have been avoided even if other evils would have arisen. That is why Gertrud von le Fort says that the Ottonian era is the best time in Germany and I agree with her. These books were written during the shipwreck of the Weimar Republic and, with the advent of Nazism.

Fonch wrote: "I will try to explain why I think Gertrud von Le Fort says what she says about the Ottonian revival. All peoples have a mission and each one contributes something to History. What I more or less think..."

Fonch, what you have done in the previous comment is an exercise of fictional history. Remember what Aslan said to Lucy in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader: Questions about what would have happened are never answered. :-)

On the other hand, perhaps you are assuming you know too much about the reason why von le Fort said what she said about the Ottonians.

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "I will try to explain why I think Gertrud von Le Fort says what she says about the Ottonian revival. All peoples have a mission and each one contributes something to History. What I m..."

I accept the amendment Professor :-), but I think I am not too wrong. I follow my Hilaire Belloc's advice to tell the story not as if centuries have passed since the events occurred, but as if we were about to make a critical decision: "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader is my favorite book from the The Chronicles of Narnia.
Let us remember the wise advice that St. Thomas More gave to Thomas Cromwell: "Mr. Cromwell, now that you are chancellor, tell the King what he must do, but do not tell him what he can do, because if the lion knew his strength", precisely this debate was exemplified by Baldassare Castiglione (with his mistakes, which he had) and Niccolò Machiavelli. The first told the men what they had to do, the other what they could do. That is what I think Gertrud von le Fort is doing, talking about the Ottonian era, the best in history, she is doing the same thing that Louis de Wohldid, offering her a path to Germany, telling them to imitate the Ottons and, not the nihilism of the Weimar Republic and not the National Socialism of Adolf Hitler, which were the times she lived, this is seen in her novel Der Kranz der Engel. There he gives the German romantics as an example and, in "The Wedding of Magdeburg: A Novel" the counterpoint is Tilly against the closedness of his men and the Protestant faction that with their stubborn behavior condemn Magdeburg to destruction. PS Also, Professor, you know that I love Uchronia ;-).

Fonch wrote: "this is seen in her novel Der Kranz der Engel. There he gives the German romantics as an example"

I have not read the two novels you mention. But apparently, from what you say, in one of them von le Fort's German heyday was not the Ottonians, but the Romantics. That's exactly what I said, when I discussed German culture rather than politics.

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "this is seen in her novel Der Kranz der Engel. There he gives the German romantics as an example"

I have not read the two novels you mention. But apparently, from what you say, in on..."

It's not the same Professor ;-) Frau Le Fort does not deny that there are other luminous times or that Germany lived other moments of splendor, but for her she lives in the era that she lives in that of the fall of the Weimar Republic and the advent of Nazism. What he tries to do is convince his contemporaries to follow an era: it was a great country without betraying its conscience, as he will do with the angel in the trench coat and mustache, asCésar González-Ruano would call Hitler in Juan Manuel de Prada's wonderful novel "A Thousand Eyes Hides the Night," Mil ojos esconde la noche. La ciudad sin luz whose sequel, "Prison of Darkness," Mil ojos esconde la noche 2. Cárcel de tinieblas (ESPASA NARRATIVA) Juan Manuel de Prada will go on sale this month. As for Der Kranz der Engel, it is not a novel about the writers of German Romanticism, but how their influence can counteract the evil vision of Nazism. That story is about a young Veronica who will try to save her beloved from the influence of Nazism (although in the novel Nazism is not mentioned, but it is seen that she criticizes that) /review/show... Apart from the fact that I dedicated a novel to dealing with a subject, it does not mean that for that reason I consider it as the best moment in the history of the country. I think that no sensible person would say that the 30 Years' War, which is what the other novel cited (recently published by Ignatius Press) is about is one of the most splendid moments in the history of Germany, but it does give room to tell a good story and, the same happens with the writers of German romanticism. That does not invalidate Le Fort's thesis that I share that the best moment in the history of Germany, despite the fact that most historians are not on my side (according to the Professor) be the time of the Ottonian dynasty. It must be said that it was an age of light in an age of darkness such as the tenth century. This topic is so interesting that a video is going to be dedicated to it on my Youtube channel that I will send to the Professor of course. PS I would like to apologize to the Professor for taking so long to reply to him.

Jill wrote: "This is a very "dense" book. I'm glad it's short, will take several re-readings."

Yes, yes it is.

Jill wrote: "I'm not sure what she means by "sibyl""

I am not sure what she means by many things.

Some literary allusions would have been understood by any educated person at the time, a commonality we've lost.

Does anyone know what recent appeal to motherhood she's referencing in the Timeless Woman section? Simply the need to bear sons to replace those killed in the Great War?

I'm glad mothers are now present at their children's baptisms!

Are there professions more suited to women? Any alien to our feminine nature? Surely men and women in the same profession manifest different strengths and gifts.

I love her phrase the "apostolate of silence".

Jill wrote: "Are there professions more suited to women? Any alien to our feminine nature? Surely men and women in the same profession manifest different strengths and gifts."

Yes, different strengths. I'd say that being a stevedore, for instance, requires a lot of strength, therefore few women would be able to do it. Even though during the Middle Ages some poor women resorted to this profession as an alternative to prostitution.

Manuel wrote: "Jill wrote: "Are there professions more suited to women? Any alien to our feminine nature? Surely men and women in the same profession manifest different strengths and gifts."

Yes, different stren..."

I think that in the Middle Ages there is everything: when men had to go on crusades, women had to assume their roles, I recommend reading the books of Women in the Days of the Cathedrals Régine Pernoud and Mujeres Medievales Eileen Power

Manuel wrote: "Jill wrote: "I'm not sure what she means by "sibyl""



A sibyl was the Roman equivalent of the Greek Pythia."

I add that Virgil wrote a poem about the birth of a marvelous child inaugurating an age of wonders -- about the time of the birth of Christ.

This has been interpreted as being about Christ by many Christians, and generally attributed to the Sibylline books.

Mary wrote: "
I add that Virgil wrote a poem about the birth of a marvelous child inaugurating an age of wonders -- about the time of the birth of Christ."

Yes, Eclogue 4, which was written around 40BC. The supposed reference to Christ was suggested by Eusebius of Caesarea in the fourth century. We read his History of the Church here, in the club, a few years ago.