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I've been up all night reading your discussions and posting perhaps excessively. Two dilemmas kept popping into my head, and I'd like to hear what some of you think.

#1: Is it better to ask permission or beg forgiveness? I know it has been pondered many times before, but I thought to bring it up here.

#2: Direct from the pages of Lord Fouls Bane by Stephen R. Donaldson:

"A real man - real in all the ways that we recognize as real - finds himself suddenly abstracted from the world and deposited in a physical situation that cannot possibly exist: sounds have aroma, smells have color and depth, sights have texture. touches have pitch and timbre. There he is informed by a disembodied voice that he has been brought to that place as a champion for his world. He must fight to the death in single combat against a champion from another world. If he is defeated, he will die, and his world - the real world - will be destroyed because he lacks the inner strength to survive.
The Man refuses to believe what he is told is true. He asserts that he is either dreaming or hallucinating, and declines to be put in the false position of fighting to the death where no 'real' danger exists. He is implacable in his determination to disbelieve his apparent situation, and does not defend himself when he is attacked by the champion of the other world.
Question: is the man's behavior courageous or cowardly? This is the fundamental question of ethics."

That question is essentially the basis of The Covenant series, and I think it's a good one. Mull it over, or answer rashly. Either way, let us know what you think.

I guess I don't understand your questions.

Why would two "dilemmas" pop into your head just from reading discussions and posting? Or are you asking for forgiveness for posting? As long as your posts are relevant to the discussion and are not spam, there's nothing to ask forgiveness for, and no reason to obtain permission. This is a public group.

Second, the physical situation that "cannot possibly exist", quoted below, DOES exist, in a condition called "synesthesia," a neurologically based phenomenon in which stimulation of one sensory or cognitive pathway leads to automatic, involuntary experiences in a second sensory or cognitive pathway.

People hear colors, feel sounds, taste words, etc.

Maybe the fight to the death and disembodied voice don't exist, but... who's to say what can possibly exist? *shrug*

Perhaps I was asking forgiveness in part, but the second question was based more on the motivations of someone in that particular situation. The courage or cowardice question is the important part, to me at least, and relevant in almost any situation we all encounter every day. Thanks for the response, I've never heard of that disorder, but it sounds fascinating.

OK... But there is no way that anyone can really give you an answer to that question. Only the person IN the situation could tell whether he was acting out of cowardice or courage.

Agreed, and quite a good point. To look at it from a different angle, rather than judging an abstract person, what would you do if faced with that same situation, hypothetically?

Sorry I didn't answer before, I was at work.

If I was in that kind of situation - by which I mean thrust into a world completely foreign and then informed that I would have to fight for my life - I imagine that I'd look for a means of escape without having to kill or be killed. If none was available, I would fight.

If the situation was such that my opponent was willing to kill me for no reason at all, and would not NOT kill me, then I wouldn't just stand there and die. That, to me and FROM me, would be cowardly. Better to try than to just give up.

But that's only MY answer. I am not able to speak for anyone else.

I like the first part of your answer. Personally, I agree that escape would be the most ethical answer. Partly because if you were to kill your opponent, that world would die even while yours survives. But if one of you has to die, absolutely, than I think it's our instinct to preserve ourselves and our home. That home might be our world, or our country, or maybe just our block, but we would all fight to defend it, I think. Thanks for your reply, I love hearing new opinions and attitudes!

To take that arguement into a new context, what would you do if it you were kidnapped in this world and thrown into the same problem? In other words -- someone puts you in a pit with another person and says that if you kill them your family will live, if you don't they will die.

That is basically what you are asking, on a larger scale (worlds vs. families) and with a few extra things thrown in (senses change).

So what would you do then?

Yeah, thats the essence of the question alright, and much simpler I think. I was quoting Stephen R. Donaldson up there, but I think it might be a little long-winded for my taste. As for me, i doubt I would kill simply to save my own life. But if my family's life is at stake, that's tough. I hope I would have the courage to defend myself, to protect them.

I'd kill to save my own life, more than likely. If my family was at stake, I'd kill most anyone, with very few reservations. Me & mine matter more than anyone else unless there are very clear, hard proofs otherwise.

I doubt anyone who says they wouldn't. They've probably never been in a life or death situation. If they have & still choose to die, the race is better off without them anyway.

Well, I don't know, Jim, I think that has to do with your concept of "life". I'm reading Shogun and it's made me look at the value of life a bit differently. The Japanese, as they are depicted in the book, value honor and duty over all else, and do not hesitate to sacrifice themselves and their family for their honor and at their liege lord's whim, no matter the reason. If he says "die" they die. No questions asked.

Very interesting concept to me. I can't imagine having that kind of mindset, but then again, they hold the belief that they will be reborn again and again until they reach Nirvana, so life isn't as precious or fleeting, if you're just going to get another one.

Being the modern girl that I am, I agree with you, though: Mess with my family and it's on. I could never stand by and do nothing when the people I love are suffering or will suffer.

Becky: it interests me that you're reading Shogun. I haven't read it myself, but I do know a bit about Japanese culture. Most of the basis for my opinions on the value of life and death comes from when I studied Zen Buddhism. Zen was established in Japan in the later parts of the Shogun era, so obviously the philosophies interconnect. In Zen, interpersonal attachment is rejected (like the Jedi) and one is encouraged to love everyone equally. So, I feel like I should value everyone - even people I've never met - equally, but those closest to me are obviously going to take precedence. Maybe it's just vanity, but I hope I would fight for their survival as opposed to my own.

There is something of that in the book, yes. I'm a little more than 1/3 into it right now, but the differences in the cultures are very intriguing. They've talked about love, and how that is not something that the Japanese, in the book anyway, have a concept of. They base their actions rather on honor and duty, or even desire, as a baser impulse, but love isn't a factor because it's sort of a useless emotion, when duty and honor can inspire the same actions without any of the negative aspects, like jealousy, etc. (But that's me reading into it a little.)

Anyway... Just goes to show what a difference a culture can make with how this question could be answered. :)

PS. You should read Shogun. It's VERY good so far.

I really liked "Shogun", both the book & the movie. My favorite in the series is the book "Tai Pan" though. (The movie is good, but too short.) I've read that several times & Dirk Straun was awesome. I didn't care much for "Gaijan", but loved "King Rat" & "Nobel House". I got tired of it after that, though. "King Rat" was also a great movie, but in all cases I liked the books better.

The lack of freedom in the ancient Japanese society is truly horrific. All that honor & duty are part of a constrictive social structures that may seem admirable on the surface, but could you imagine the poor people living with them?

Zen & other philosophies are all fine, but even immersed in the culture from birth, it's hard to break the survival instincts. Here, we don't have it. Instead, one of our leaders says something & we mock him.

Anyway, I've known pacifists, people who really tried to be good. In my experience, most folks aren't too far away from animals when the heat is on. It takes a lot of training or a stronger will than most have to put 'women & children first' into practice.

I can understand that, but again I'd argue that it depends on how you're looking at it. From the Japanese perspective in the book, it doesn't seem that they feel their lives are horrific. Rather they feel that the "Western" ways are.

This has to do with how you're raised and taught, and I'm definitely not defending someone having the power to kill whole families on a whim just because one person failed to be perfect at something, which seems to have been common.

I'm just saying that the mindset we hold colors our reactions to events. Things that are normal and even accepted in other cultures are abhorred in ours, and vice versa.

I understand, Becky. It's interesting to look into another culture like that & I think Clavell did a wonderful job of showing it. Of course, I know nothing about the culture other than through his & other books, not all that many of them, so I have no idea how accurate his depiction is.

If you like "Shogun" you really should go on to the rest of the series. I think you'll really like them. I believe I've reviewed all of those I read here on GR, if you're interested. I'll go look & so so, if I haven't.

Jim wrote: "Of course, I know nothing about the culture other than through his & other books, not all that many of them, so I have no idea how accurate his depiction is."

Yeah, that's how I am as well. I just find the whole thing fascinating. It intrigues me how everyone thinks their way is the right way. But I do enjoy looking at things from the other side of the fence, and sometimes that means playing "devil's advocate". Hehe...

Series?! oh man.....

Go for it, Chris! You're being sucked in...

;-)

Becky wrote: "Second, the physical situation that "cannot possibly exist", quoted below, DOES exist, in a condition called "synesthesia," a neurologically based phenomenon in which stimulation of one sensory or cognitive pathway leads to automatic, involuntary experiences in a second sensory or cognitive pathway..."

Okay, this is a bit off the main topic of this thread, but I just read a wonderful short story with characters dealing with synesthesia, titled The Empire of Ice Cream by Jeffrey Ford. The story (approx 25 pages) appears in at least two short story collections: The Secret History of Fantasy and The Empire of Ice Cream. Quite interesting.