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Hello Everyone,

Welcome to the historical fiction discussion of Master and Commander by Patrick O'Brian.

This is the reading assignment for week three - (May 17th, 2010 to May 23th, 2010)

Chapter Three - pages 95 - 134

This is the second historical fiction group selected book.

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers if you are catching up.

This book was kicked off on May 3rd.

This discussion is being led by assisting moderator of historical fiction - Elizabeth S.

We always enjoy the participation of all group members. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

This thread opens up Monday, May 17th for discussion. This is a non spoiler thread.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

Patrick O'Brian

We begin Chapter 3 with the Sophie finally at sea escorting her convoy. We begin at night and see the shift from night-watch to day. Jack goes up the to observe from above, remembering some moments in his youth when he was similarly perched above. As the men are rousted from their beds for the day, Stephen is also awakened. Unfamiliar with sea-life, he wonders what the crisis is, not knowing that the commotion is merely the men waking and hurrying to positions. Jack has the men mustered, calls roll, and reads the Articles of War aloud. Stephen comes face-to-face with James Dillon, and we can see that both recognize each other, but do not comment.

Jack assigns James Mowett to take Stephen on a tour of the ship. Mowett takes Stephen up the mast, points out the various sails and masts and bars, and is able to recite their sizes since he is studying to pass the lieutenant's examination. Stephen asks many questions, but some of his mind is thinking of Dillon, and how they were both involved with the United Irishmen. After the tour, Stephen has dinner with Jack and Dillon. Stephen and Dillon converse guardedly, neither is sure how to react to the other. Dillon tells his story of his adventure on the Dart, when with few men and a mere cutter he managed to beat three French privateers. Jack talks of the few times he met Lord Nelson. The chapter ends with a quick look at Jack as a new captain through the eyes of his purser (Ricketts) and the master (Marshall).

I thought there were some good pieces of humor in this chapter, too. I like the one in the very first paragraph. The merchantmen had decided to travel slowly during the night, "no doubt for fear of tripping over the lines of longitude" (page 95). Made me laugh.

I also enjoyed that as well Elizabeth as well as the bit further on in the book where Stephen gets up in a panic when he hears the crew rushing to their stations and bangs his head on a beam;
"He drew on his breeches as fast as he could and, staightening briskly, he brought his head up against a beam with such force that he staggered and sank on to a locker, cherishing it with both hands."

That's another good one, Aussie Rick. As others have mentioned, we could really make a list. I'll mention one more from this chapter, from page 116. "They were offered the choice between the dampest cells of the common gaol and the Navy, they chose the latter, as the dryer place." What a comment on conditions in the common gaol!

Yah, I am really continuing to enjoy the humor in this book. I wish I had it with me so I could pick out a few of the lines I liked.

I appreciate the tour that Mowett gave Stephen (and us) of the ship, it helped answer some of the questions from the last chapter. It also really goes to show you what goes into running and maintaining a ship like that. I am now very interested in touring some of the preserved ships we have of that era that you can find in various harbors across the world.

I was also struck by the rules and regulations of the ship as Jack read them to the crew, and how many of them are punishable by death. Swearing and cursing was a punishable offense on a navy ship back then? The phrase "curses like a sailor" must have come from a later time. The bit about the man who sodomized the goat was also quite interesting.

Good stuff.

Hi Don, I agree with you about Mowett taking Stephen for a tour of the ship, a good way of explaining things to the readers without being too intrusive or spoiling the story.

I've been on the 'Batavia' when it was on display at the Australian Maritime Museum in Sydney. I was surprised at how small it was and how cramped the living conditions were.

I certainly learned a lot about ships (make that "sloops") of the day from the author's descriptions. I like how he used Maturin as the novice to whom everything was explained. Following Maturin on his tour, the reader got the insider's view of life aboard the vessel.

Like everyone else, I continue to enjoy the humor - the captain's hatred of "papists and paperwork" was particularly humorous when Maturin pointed out that the actions Jack complained of were actually done by the protestants.

Roll call was amusing as well - Charles Stallard: "No entry under Straggling, non under Venereals, none under Cloaths in Sick Quarters: had remitted ten pounds from abroad: obviously a valuable man."

Yes - OBVIOUSLY!

Like others, this was a very enjoyable chapter. I developed a real appreciation for O'Brien as an author by working the tour of the ship for the doctor. By writing this in, he also took the reader on the same tour and he worked it perfectly into the story.

They also answered on of the obvious questions that comes to mind when you are learning about how things work, "where do you go to the bathroom?"

I agree with all of you that the tour of the Sophie was most helpful, and very well done. There are so many reasons I would make a terrible sailor. Not only do I get seasick just thinking about it, but I'm also afraid of heights! I would never have made it on that tour. :)

And I like Rodney's point that even such mundane subjects as "where does one go to the bathroom" are addressed, without calling too much attention to it either.

We've laid so much foundation in these first three chapters, I'm looking forward to (and hoping for) some progression of story in the next.

On the ship I visited at the Australian Maritime Museum in Sydney, the 'Batavia', I had the opportunity to check out the 'heads'.

A rickety structure over the side of the ship with a hole in it and a large thick rope that dangled and trailed in the sea. This was used to wipe yourself clean with and then dropped back in the sea to be used again by the next person after the water had washed it a bit - nice!

Wow, Aussie Rick. And I always thought corn-cobs in the outhouse sounded archaic!

I'm soooo glad I live in the 21st Century!

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I'm soooo glad I live in the 21st Century!"

Ooooh, yes. I'd rather eat unsliced bread than give up my flush toilet. :)

Since we are in danger of getting sidetracked too far into the disposal of the output of the digestive system, let me ask everyone something.

If you had been Stephen, what other questions would you have asked on your tour? It seems to me he tried to ask about what patients he might currently have, and where he should expect to treat them. On such a small ship, those are good questions. But others didn't seem to care about that as much as Stephen. As a physician, wouldn't this switch to the small ship seem backward to him?

Thought I'd point out one of O'Brian's more poetic passages thus far, in the opening to Chapter 3 (p. 95): "The sky was still grey and it was impossible to say whether it was clear or covered with very high cloud; but the sea itself already had a nacreous light that belonged more to the day than the darkness, and this light was reflected in the great convexities of the topsails, giving them the lustre of grey pearls."

Great quotation, Owen. One of the things I like about these historical fiction reads is that we can not only enjoy great history but also great writing and humor and poetry. Sometimes that poetry can slide softly by without much notice. Thanks!

Elizabeth, interesting question! If I were Stephen, I'd want to know more about conditions in the waters they are traveling. What is the frequency of attack, whether by pirates or by French ships? He might not have asked that of Mowett, though. Mowett's a midshipman, right? That would make him pretty young and inexperienced. And I suppose the question might give the impression of timidity, so Stephen would avoid it for that reason, too.

Good questions, Mary Ellen. Although you are probably right about asking Mowett. Probably better to wait and ask Jack. I wonder if such questions would have come to Stephen's mind more if he weren't thinking so much about Dillon.

Another question that occurred to me is: What is the general ship schedule and routine? (Especially after bumping his head that morning.)

Elizabeth S wrote: "Since we are in danger of getting sidetracked too far into the disposal of the output of the digestive system, let me ask everyone something.

If you had been Stephen, what other questions would yo..."

Stephen would ask about what fishes and birds have been seen! He is almost completely one tracked on natural science. The rest of the world just gets in the way of his collecting and observing and he will deal with it only when he has to.

Elizabeth S wrote: "Good questions, Mary Ellen. Although you are probably right about asking Mowett. Probably better to wait and ask Jack. I wonder if such questions would have come to Stephen's mind more if he wer..."

The ship's day officially started at twelve noon. The ship's officers would use the sextant to determine that the sun was at it highest point in the sky and the Captain would declare that the day had begun.

Of course the sextant was also used to determine the ship's latitude.

The ship's day was split into four hour blocks or watches. Half the crew would be "on watch" for four hours while the other half rested. Of course, weather or battle would require the "watch below" to be called up and engage in the ship's activities.

A deviation from the four hour schedule is the four hour period in the evening. This four hour period is divided into two two hour watches. This served two purposes, it allowed the crew to eat their evening meal as well as having the crew rotate through the watches so the same half of the crew isn't working the midnight to four am shift all of the time.

I believe there were extra hands who didn't serve a watch because they were unskilled, injured or otherwise couldn't conduct normal activities. I believe this group was called the after-guard.

Certain officers were able to stand a watch, I believe the requirement was to be able to navigate. They would also rotate through the watches with the number of officers determining how many watches they would have per day. The Captain did not normally serve a watch.

I believe the cleaning of the ship was at the beginning of the morning watch which was four am! That would certainly be very early for me.

It must have been a hard life with no more than four hours at a time to sleep and having that schedule rotate so you never get into a sleep pattern.

Sundays also had a different schedule with mustering and inspection, reading the rules and church if the Captain was so inclined.

I know this doesn't explain all of the activities. And we don't get a lot more out of O'Brian in this area. He really focuses more on the Captain and other officers role and we generally only see the common seamen within that context.

I like your questions, Patricrk. You really take into consideration what kind of a man Stephen is.

And what a great description of a ship schedule, Erick. It helps me understand, too, some of Jack's debates as to how to work the watches. Biggest question I have now is, why was everyone running to man the pumps? Was there usually water that needed to be pumped out each day? Or am I misunderstanding what that meant.

Elizabeth S wrote: "I like your questions, Patricrk. You really take into consideration what kind of a man Stephen is.

And what a great description of a ship schedule, Erick. It helps me understand, too, some of Ja..."

Yes, enough water would work its way in that the ship had to be pumped every day. They were running because the last man there would probably get hit by a starter (a tarred rope end) or go into his officers black book for assignment to a worse chore later on.

That was a great summary of a ships schedule Erick, very helpful indeed!
Whilst I was in the Army I spent some time on one of our navy's patrol boats. As an extra 'guest' I found that I had to 'hot-bunk' with one of the ships crew. So while he was on watch or duty I slept in his bunk and when shifts changed over I went on duty and he jumped into a warm bunk! Apparently this was quite common in the days of sail as well?

Patricrk wrote: "Elizabeth S wrote: "I like your questions, Patricrk. You really take into consideration what kind of a man Stephen is.

And what a great description of a ship schedule, Erick. It helps me under..."

They would also pump water onto the deck for the deck cleaning.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "That was a great summary of a ships schedule Erick, very helpful indeed!
Whilst I was in the Army I spent some time on one of our navy's patrol boats. As an extra 'guest' I found that I had to 'ho..."

I am sure it was. I don't think they had enough room to bunk everyone at one time. I remember a description that each man had 18" apiece. Since they only slept half the time it was 36" in reality. These men were on these cruises for sometimes months at a time. I can't imagine not having any personal space for all that time.

I also spent some time on a ship while I was in the Army. I was appalled at the concept of hot-bunking. I was perfectly willing to sleep on the ground and not shower for a month but hot-bunking was disgusting to me. Funny how that works, isn't it? We were in the tropics so I would generally sleep under some equipment that was on the deck, even when it was raining.

Thanks to everyone for your helpful answers to questions about how things work. Overall I am impressed by how much info O'Brian can give us, yet there is so much more that has to be skipped over or assumed.

Erick, I appreciate what you say about everyone having their thing about what sounds disgusting. Whether it be toilet facilities, hot-bunking, lack of shower...

Sometimes I wonder if what things we may enjoy as "modern amenities" that would disgust those of the past. Perhaps our slavishness to machines? Thinking as someone looking forward to when we turn on the A/C for the summer, what about living in a house with windows that you don't ever open and a machine controls your temperature? I know there are people who lived in times where taking daily showers/baths sounded quite unhealthy. So much is perspective.

I find the guarded exchanges between Stephen and Dillon quite interesting in this chapter. Even though we now have some explanation as to when they knew each before, there is still some mystery left that is an appealing little undercurrent to the story.

I agree Elizabeth, it will be interesting to read how the relationship between Stephen and Dillon develops and what history unravels between the two as the narrative progresses. This is one section of the book that I don't think was portrayed in the movie 'Master & Commander'.

Another section I liked in this chapter was after Jack and Stephen discussed the Court Martial for a seaman for the offence of sodomy on a goat and Jack offered;

"....A dish of tea? You take milk, sir?"
"Goat's milk, sir?"
"Why, I suppose it is"
"Perhaps without milk, then, if you please......"

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Another section I liked in this chapter was after Jack and Stephen discussed the Court Martial for a seaman for the offence of sodomy on a goat and Jack offered;

"....A dish of tea? You take mi..."

Good one, Aussie Rick! I missed that before. :)