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Hello Everyone,

Welcome to the historical fiction discussion of POST CAPTAIN
by Patrick O'Brian.

This is the reading assignment for week one - (Nov 1, 2010 to Nov 7, 2010)

Week One - November 1 - November 7 - Chapter 1 - p. 7-32

This is the fourth historical fiction group selected book.

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers if you are catching up.

This book will be kicked off on November 1st.

This discussion is being led by assisting moderator - Christopher. During the discussion of Master and Commander, Christopher volunteered to steer us through the second book in the series. Please support him in this effort.

We always enjoy the participation of all group members. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, and may be available on Kindle or audible.

This thread opens up Monday, November 1st for discussion. This is a non spoiler thread.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

Patrick O'Brian

Please feel free to research the complete Table of Contents and Syllabus on this thread and to see which version Christopher is using.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/4...

Post Captain is the second book in the series and comes after Master and Commander.

Patrick O'Brian

Christopher, are you ready to begin?

Folks, Christopher posted on the wrong thread:

Here is the first post:

Welcome O'Brian fans, I'm Chris Tolley, your moderator for this book, Post Captain.

Like many of you, I've read all 20 books, as well as several others by O'Brian, so I'll be very careful not to spill anything from future works.

I am re-reading Post Captain myself, and having remembered it with disfavor, I've been pleasantly surprised at how good it is.

The first part of our reading assignment finds our heroes, Stephen maturin and Jack Aubrey, cast ashore in that bane of all fighting types - peace.

They are immediately immersed in a conflict of another kind, just as serious - that between men and women.

I was struck by how much time O'Brian spends decribing the female characters. Any thoughts on why that is?

These are clearly 19th century women, i.e., locked in a world where their only reasonable alternative in life is to find a husband. Yet O'Brian uses two words to describe the best of them - dash and courage. How does O'Brian portry the women? Is he fair? Sexist?

I was struck by his description of Mrs. Williams, that she is emphatically 'a woman'? He doesn't explain much further. I wasn't sure exactly what he meant by that? Any ideas?

If he meant women are narrow minded, over intuitive and scheming, his female characters don't bear that out, since Mrs. Willimas appears to be the only female that is truly that way.

What do you think? What does it mean to be emphatically 'a woman'?

Thanks for your comments. I look forward to reading them.

I also noted the very mixed feelings of the crew when they heard the news about the peace. They were happy they would have peace but devastated that they were losing their profession.

I also noted the relief in the ship's captain that he did not have to make the decision on whether to engage the, at least for the moment, enemy ship. It shows the responsibility and pressure of being a ship's captain during those times. O'Brian sure does communicate a lot of information in just a few words.

Chris said "They are immediately immersed in a conflict of another kind, just as serious - that between men and women." That is well said. Of course, Homer would say that that conflict is the source of the other conflict :).

I had never thought of why O'Brian spent so much time describing the women. If memory serves, he did not spend so much time on any other character aside from Stephen and Jack. It does seem like there is a message there but I can't seem to figure out what it is.

Saying that Mrs. Williams is "emphatically a woman" is an interesting comment. I believe he means that she is, in her own right, a woman and not just the mother and aunt of the other women. That may seem tautological so I will try to explain further. Mrs. Williams has all the natural feelings and passions of any healthy person. He may be telling us that so we understand her behavior is a response to those passions being frustrated by her station and situation.

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

I thought of O'Brian here as a sort of sharper edged Jane Austen. Taking the more serene aspects of early 19th cent. english agrarian society but making sure the reader is aware of those realities we in the 21st century would find very restricting. Certainly the narrowness of choices open to women would fall into this category.

I have to agree with you Christopher. In fact, what choices did women have in those days to live out even a semi adventuresome life.

In fact if Jane Austen had not come from such a comfortably situated family even she might have not been able to enjoy the time to be a writer.

I had never really considered this section of the book, preferring to push through it as quickly as possible to get to the "fun" parts. O'Brian didn't have to take the time to write this so I think he had a reason and what you gentleman are describing makes sense.

O'Brian is, as one his characters might say, a 'deep oold file'. I felt there was a definite and specific purpose for his taking the time to explain all this about women and men, male and female characters, etc.

One of the reasons I did not like this book initially was because of all the time O'Brian seemed to spend with english society stuff and the relationships among the characters. I find this time, however, they are fascinating.

He might be doing a bit of character and cultural development at the onset.

At the very least. My feeling is that all this is also somehow essential to the story.

Absolutely.

I think also that there are some great similarities between some of these ladies (Mapes Court) and characters in Pride and Prejudice. Mrs. Williams seems like Mrs. Bennett.

Jane Austen

Christopher, what was your take on the significance if any of the fox hunting scene?

This was a synopsis of the Mrs. Bennett character in Pride and Prejudice (Austen).

Mrs. Bennet
Mrs. Bennet is a miraculously tiresome character. Noisy and foolish, she is a woman consumed by the desire to see her daughters married and seems to care for nothing else in the world. Ironically, her single-minded pursuit of this goal tends to backfire, as her lack of social graces alienates the very people (Darcy and Bingley) whom she tries desperately to attract. Austen uses her continually to highlight the necessity of marriage for young women. Mrs. Bennet also serves as a middle-class counterpoint to such upper-class snobs as Lady Catherine and Miss Bingley, demonstrating that foolishness can be found at every level of society. In the end, however, Mrs. Bennet proves such an unattractive figure, lacking redeeming characteristics of any kind, that some readers have accused Austen of unfairness in portraying her—as if Austen, like Mr. Bennet, took perverse pleasure in poking fun at a woman already scorned as a result of her ill breeding.

Jane Austen

A couple of other questions about chapter one which have been discussed elsewhere with other groups:

1. What signal do you think Griffiths was about to make, and why? What would Jack have done had he been in command?

2. Jack tells Stephen that most of the naval officers are disappointed about the Peace, yet Jack is also clearly against Napoleon and everything he stands for. How can one reconcile those two facts? If he’s not fighting for peace, what is he fighting for?

Please feel free to discuss any of the above.

When we discussed Master and Commander; we realized that most naval officers were not paid in full if they were on shore in peacetime. That could have been one of the reasons for the mixed feelings that Jack Aubrey had.

One of the quotes that O'Brian used was the following on page 19:

Thou looks’t like Antichrist in that lewd hat.

This was originally a quote from Ben Jonson, The Alchemist, IV, vii

In this situation the hounds had lost the fox and the girls (probably more Diana) noticed that the only tolerable looking man had vanished! The brilliant and very cynical Diana Villiers had said this to her younger and shocked cousin Cecilia.

Bentley wrote: "A couple of other questions about chapter one which have been discussed elsewhere with other groups:

1. What signal do you think Griffiths was about to make, and why? What would Jack have done had..."

The only times Jack has not attacked is when defeat was assured; if there is a chance of success he would attack. In this case it looked like victory was a distinct possibility so he would have attacked.

I think the other Captain was going to attack as well. We have already seen that the British Navy does not tolerate timid captains.

Interesting Erick...I think you are probably right. Maybe in that regard Jack also had the right personality (more of a risk taker) and brash.