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Hello Everyone,

Welcome to the historical fiction discussion of POST CAPTAIN
by Patrick O'Brian.

This is the reading assignment for week two - (Nov 8, 2010 to Nov 14, 2010)

Week Two - November 8 - November 14 - Chapters 2 & 3 - p. 33-88

This is the fourth historical fiction group selected book.

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers if you are catching up.

This book was kicked off on November 1st.

This discussion is being led by assisting moderator - Christopher. During the discussion of Master and Commander, Christopher volunteered to steer us through the second book in the series. Please support him in this effort.

We always enjoy the participation of all group members. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, and may be available on Kindle or audible.

This thread opens up Monday, November 8th for discussion. This is a non spoiler thread.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

Patrick O'Brian

Please feel free to research the complete Table of Contents and Syllabus on this thread and to see which version Christopher is using.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/4...

Post Captain is the second book in the series and comes after Master and Commander.

Patrick O'Brian

In these Chapters, O'Brian goes deep into the war between the sexes. Diana Villiers views of men and marriage are dispiriting but, perhaps, realistic.

What is the difference between Diana’s situation and that of the Williams girls? What effect might this have on any possible courtship?

What are your thoughts on the conversation between Stephen and Diana at the ball? How does Diana understand that Stephen is interested in her?

What is the cause of the new reserve in Stephen’s friendship with Jack? Is it more on one side than the other? Does Jack know of Stephen’s feelings for Diana?

Jack is devastated when he learns his prize-agent has gone bankrupt, leaving Jack deeply in debt.

Despite Jack’s desperate need for a ship, he fights with Lord St. Vincent. Do you think St. Vincent would have given him a ship had he been more civil, or did Jack never have a chance?

I think this chapter also shows a comparison between Jack's and Stephen's peronalities. Stephen approaches his courting of Diana with a great deal of caution and subtlety. Jack's first impulse when speaking with St. Vincent is to become aggressive even when it is not in his best interest.

The simplest reason why Jack is not civil to St. Vincent is that if he was, he may have gotten a ship, and then where would the story be?

My own feeling was that Jack went to see St. Vincent in the worst possible frame of mind, and as a result, was openly rude to him, practically demanding a ship when, as O'Brian made clear, there were very few ships to be had and intense competition among captions for commands. I suppose Erick is right about Jack's rashness, in a sense, but I tend to think when it comes to naval combat the reason why Jack is so successful is partially because he is bold but more because he is well prepared and exercises good judgment (I think I may be giving something away from past or future books)

Arguably this scene exists also to remind the reader that one's fortunes as a captain in the British Navy depend at least in part on one's 'interest' i.e., one's family/political connections. Clearly, Jack's father, an extreme, offensive, unloved member of parliament, is on the outs with the political party which controls the admiralty, and this hurts Jack quite a bit as well. Even a brilliant and daring victory taking the xebec frigate Cacafuego does not help Jack get himself a ship.

You make a lot of sense Christopher in post 4. Your ancestors, lineage and parentage had a lot to do with how well you did and the opportunities you received in England in those days and especially in the British Navy.

I think O'Brian is very pointedly giving the reader the exact shape of those 19th century limitations in the section starting with Jack learning he is in debt up to the end of his interview with St. Vincent.

Christopher wrote: "The simplest reason why Jack is not civil to St. Vincent is that if he was, he may have gotten a ship, and then where would the story be?

My own feeling was that Jack went to see St. Vincent in..."

That does make a lot of sense. Jack has won due to good judgment and preparation, by making his crew practice with the guns.

Maybe we are seeing a difference between Jack at sea and Jack on land. He showed a similar lack of judgment when he tried to jump a fence during the fox hunt.

We try to not have any allusions which could be construed as spoilers either. However, there is a glossary thread where other expansive discussions can take place.

I had to laugh while reading this chapter that Mrs. Williams's excuse to pop in on Aubrey and Stephen was to ask about the jasmine? (lol)

For me, I find Mrs. Williams humorous in her attempts to get her daughters married off. In basically insisting that a Clementi piano could never go off or be out of tune...she really does push the envelope. I have to hand it to Aubrey...he can still be absolutely charming no matter what is thrown his way - even a dispute over a piano that Maturin is convinced is out of tune. O'Brian is humorous. He just had to know a woman like that. Pitch perfect - the character not the piano of course.

And how many of us would want to have a Mrs. Williams as our mother in law no matter how beautiful and talented the offspring.

Well the Williams' girls have an income and Diana has none which may be tilting the balance. When Maturin attempts with the shawl to keep Diana warm; you see the inferences made by O'Brian in the wording used that this was not just an innocent touch. And certainly I think Diana noticed. I think that Stephen at this point at the end of chapter two really does not know how deep he is into Diana - but it seems to be deep indeed. He does not seem the type of man to be trifled with. And yet Diana is making it perfectly clear that she has her cap set on Aubrey.

I guess I was trying to figure out the timeline for this book and found this as to the year that is allegedly takes place:

"The book begins in 1802 with the conclusion of the French Revolutionary Wars and the start of the Peace of Amiens. Commander Jack Aubrey returns to England to take up the life of a country squire. He meets the Williams family, and their cousin Diana Villiers."

It is obvious that most of the naval command is not that pleased with peace because it changes their monetary circumstances.

I wonder in terms of the changes in the relationship of Stephen and Jack...what precipitated this distancing. Was it the women working their charms or the unrequited love that Stephen was experiencing. Was he jealous that Diana preferred Jack Aubrey to him and he was being played the friend card? Was Jack aware that his friend was in love with the same person who was after him? Was Stephen uncomfortable with the way Jack was treating and acting with Sophia? Was he contemptuous of Jack and what Diana called Jack's immaturity. I also wondered if Diana wasn't driving a wedge between the men's friendship as often women do.

I think the game of cards tells a lot about each man's character.

"Piquet was their game. The cards flew fast, shuffled, cut and dealt again; they had played together so long that each knew the other's style through and through.

Jack's was a cunning alternation of riskng everything for the triumphant point of eight, and of a steady orthodox defense fighting for every last trick. Stephen's was based upon Hoyle, Laplace, the theory of probabilities, and his knowledge of Jack's character."

It really seems like they are talking about their relationship as well as how they relate to each other as friends and colleagues.

O'Brien's wording is beautiful here:

Jack says: "If I had not thrown away my hearts. I would have had you on toast. What amazing cards you have held these past few weeks, Stephen.

Stephen says, "Skill enters into it."

Jack says, "It is luck, all luck! You have the most amazing luck with cards. I should be sorry, was you in love with anyone?"

Wow - what an exchange and not about the cards either.

I laughed when O'Brien had them eating their dinner or lunch at the half way point at a place called the Bleeding Heart.

Also, not terribly impressed with Diana either. Too bad that Maturin seems so much into her. I do not think it bodes well for him. I think she uses people and is not terribly monogamous.

It seems like since the Peace treaty was signed; Jack's luck has taken a turn for the worse - much worse. And Stephen's overall good fortune seems to be on the rise but who knows anything seems to be able to happen right now for both of them. They both seem between things and events in their life.