Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

Hello Everyone,

For the week of January 24th through January 30th, we are reading approximately the next 30 pages of Legacy of Ashes.

This thread will discuss the following chapters and pages:

Week Four - January 24th � January 30th -> Chapters TEN, ELEVEN, and TWELVE p. 93 - 121
TEN � Bomb Repeat Bomb and ELEVEN - And Then We’ll Have a Storm and TWELVE - We Ran It in a Different Way


Remember folks, these weekly non spoiler threads are just that - non spoiler. There are many other threads where "spoiler information" can be placed including the glossary and any of the other supplemental threads.

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we have done for other spotlighted reads.

We kicked off this book on January 3rd. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, on iTunes for the ipad, etc. However, be careful, some audible formats are abridged and not unabridged.

There is still a little time remaining to obtain the book and get started. There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Welcome,

~Bentley

Week of� January 24th (Week Four of our Discussion)

Week Four - January 24th � January 30th -> Chapters TEN, ELEVEN, and TWELVE p. 93 - 121
TEN � Bomb Repeat Bomb and ELEVEN - And Then We’ll Have a Storm and TWELVE - We Ran It in a Different Way

This is a link to the complete table of contents and syllabus thread:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/4...

We are off to a good beginning.

TO SEE ALL WEEK'S THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

Tim Weiner

Remember this is a non spoiler thread.

I started these chapters last night. Good stuff.

So, here is another problem: gentleman spies. We had spies who didn't know the language?! Really? If you build an organization around key players who are not professionals, I see this as a real problem.

For sure; these guys were not James Bond (maybe they perceived themselves that way in their dreams).

Have you checked out Mr. Prince in the glossary; his name potentially a misnomer (smile).

I asked myself: why stage a coup in Guatemala? United Fruit Company and Arbenz's land reforms that seemed to jeopodize some of the UFC's profits. Evidently, the UFC came to the CIA for help.

Here is more:

Another one of our follies; of course one can see that I find these regime change routs to be beneath us and an embarrassment. Obviously it had something to do with profits (or oil) in most parts of the world.

Bentley wrote: "Another one of our follies; of course one can see that I find these regime change routs to be beneath us and an embarrassment. Obviously it had something to do with profits (or oil) in most parts..."

Exactly, Bentley. We wrap it up in Communism, and saving the citizens from oppression, but it turns out to be a huge embarrassment and we lose creditability. Guatemala is still not the same because of our meddling.

None of the countries are where Britain and/or the United States meddled; it makes them all untrustworthy thinking that something is always going on and there are mixed messages in everything they hear (paranoia forever).

I think India to a great extent has recovered but Iran has just closed down its doors and basically states "no foreigners need come here" - stay out.

We have had fear mongering going on for generations here: communism, Joe McCarthy, Edgar Hoover, George W. Bush (axis of evil) and Saddam, always something to strike fear into the hearts of Americans. Remember the color codes on what kind of day it was going to be and whether you had to worry about a terrorism attack when you took the ferry, bus, train or airplane. That really lifted everybody's spirits.

Some days you felt safer hiding under the covers and not getting out of bed.

Bryan wrote: "I asked myself: why stage a coup in Guatemala? United Fruit Company and Arbenz's land reforms that seemed to jeopodize some of the UFC's profits. Evidently, the UFC came to the CIA for help.

Her..."


Thanks Bryan -

So I recall no reference to the United Fruit Company in the book and Weiner said, I think, in the beginning that this was taken from CIA documents and interviews. So they do not mention the possible influence of United Fruit and the Wikipedia writer probably did not have access to information about CIA inspired air support for the Guatemalian rebels.

Thanks Bryan - If I ever wind up a fugitive I would not want you on my trail

I finished this section before the comments were open so I made my note, very subjective, if anyone is interested..

Legacy of Ashes

Chapters 10 � 12

These chapters make a remark of Bentley from the first reading “the CIA and democracy made an odd couple.� Seem even more appropriate

I may be among the first writing on this section (I am ready before I can post anything) so I just put in my notes.

Chapter 10 is the story of the Guatemala fiasco and it was a harbinger of doom that Howard Hunt’s approval existed or was pertinent. I really wonder for how many years this guy “worked for us� in our government in various ways, and why people might refer to him as a “patriot� and I also wonder how much and if he got as a pension from us until he died.

Nixon is also in this chapter � a fitting companion to Hunt.

This event seems to end with a blatant lie to President Eisenhower that no one corrected for him � the arrogance of this project is disheartening.

It continues however that these government folks throw away money and lives (albeit mostly non-American lives) with no oversight or management.

Chapter 11 I think especially focuses on the views and fears of the times illustrated by the excerpt from the Doolittle report. The fear of the Soviet Union and a third world war was a dominant theme of life in those years (when I was ducking under my desk in grammar school to prepare for the attack).

The decision to at least begin the use of aerial and satellite surveillance was positive and the comment of Reber about looking for tanks and planes etc rather than at the whole country is an interesting observation. But if we think back 13 years before then to the attack on Pearl Harbor and of 9 years previously the breakout of German tanks in the Ardennes starting the Battle of the Bulge maybe we can understand that focus.

Chapter 12 - Japan � well we were really corrupt and I cannot imagine that a German who had signed the declaration of war against the United States would have been supported for any office much less the leadership of Germany.

That Kishi and Kaya could have been so pardoned, forgiven, empowered helps explain my view that the Japanese never had a sense of remorse or guilt about their actions in WWII starting in China & though the war.

The education of Japanese after the war is some what explained in the Rape of Nanking

Iris Chang


and gave me some understanding of why young Japanese businessmen I met in the late 1960s and 1970s seemed not aware of any Japanese responsibility about the war.

Terrific notes Vince making my summary unnecessary. The Japanese chapter amazed and saddened me too. It is unfortunate because I know that I have stated this before how out of their way the Japanese were in making any of my stays there so comfortable and pleasant. It was hard for me to tell that these were the same people responsible for Pearl Harbor and untold actions. Of course my stays in Japan have been in the last decade. However, to this day any folks who have lived through World War II who are still alive still for many bear strong feelings against Japan. It is unfortunate what the American Japanese citizens had to go through here in this country however. And when I visit China to this day; Japan is always battered in conversation by the Chinese whenever unfortunately that country comes up accidentally in conversation. It would be hard for that culture to admit remorse or guilt even though they may have it. It would be for them at some level like losing face. And of course, the atrocities should have been apologized for. There have been some apologies of late which we have discussed in other threads. As far as our own actions with Kishi and Kaya; these are beyond explanation and can only show the corruption at that time (and I am not speaking about the Japanese).

Images of your hiding under your desk in grammar school because of some fabricated impending attack from the Soviet Union is almost laughable if it was not so sad. As if hiding under your desk would have protected you if there was such an act. It probably only served in scaring the bejeezus out of you.

Vince, your notes are helpful. I like your word "arrogance." Well said. How could this arise after all these failures? It must in part come from the individuals and the coup in Iran.

In a footnote for Chapter 10, the author states that the United Fruit Company "had tremendous power in Washington". That power and influence comes with Sec. Of State Dulles' former law firm was the firm of the UFC for years, CIA's Allen Dulles sat oon its board and Eisenhower's personal secretary's husband was the UFC public relations officer. The issue of land reform was the major concern to the company, at the time of attempted overthrow of Arbenz, they controlled the majority of viable land.

What a find Mary. So therein lies the political reason for what they did; there always seems to be one. Like Cheney and Halliburton; or Bush and his father concerning Iraq.

We should be looking at those footnotes more. Since I have downloaded the book on Kindle; that is one of the minor inconveniences - trying to go back and forth on either the Kindle or my iPad.

Thank you.

Peter Chapman

Great add, thank you Mary.

Several themes are starting to emerge from this reading for me. It was mentioned in one of the chapters that the early men who created the CIA were trying to prevent a nuclear Pearl Harbor. One limited problem I have with the author is he is glossing over that fact. I am not trying to draw any moral equivalence. This does not in any way justify their actions. The lives these men threw away is unbelievable and unpunished. I do feel that after seeing what happened in WWII, the lives lost, these men felt we should stop at nothing to prevent it from happening again. One could argue that 9/11 is guiding American foreign policy the same way right now. No leader wants those events on his watch.

The other main point which is starting to come out is the obvious viewing of a personality trait that someone is so sure of they are right, they become blinded to the world around them. This sadly, happens daily in both the private and public world. As someone who works closely with governmental agencies, I see this attitude daily. No evidence or knowledge to the contrary can sway certain people's option of their superiority in ideas and action. It appears this trait can extend to tossing away human lives as well.

What is frustrating is when people with this character type succeed, it's greeted with great fanfare how they "defied the odds" and "stayed the course" we never see the other 95 out of a 100 that took themselves and others down in flames.

Excellent and introspective post Rodney. September 11th seems to still be defining foreign policy even now almost 10 years later.

Rodney wrote: "Several themes are starting to emerge from this reading for me. It was mentioned in one of the chapters that the early men who created the CIA were trying to prevent a nuclear Pearl Harbor. One l..."

Agree, which in turns feeds the attitude of nationalism i.e. we are America and are always right, we may fail the first time but will always prevail, that sort of attitude seems to permeate here.

I agree, Rodney, the arrogance of being right is a real problem. Report after report comes up that these CIA programs are failing and Dulles does not listen.