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Hello Everyone,

For the week of February 7th - February 13th, we are reading approximately the next 40 pages of Legacy of Ashes.

This thread will discuss the following chapters and pages:

Week Six - February 7th - February 13th -> Chapters SIXTEEN, SEVENTEEN, and EIGHTEEN p 155 - 199
SIXTEEN - He Was Lying Down and He Was Lying Up and SEVENTEEN - This chapter begins Part Three| “Lost Causes� “The CIA Under Kennedy and Johnson, 1961 to 1968" - Nobody Knew What to Do and EIGHTEEN - We Had Also Fooled Ourselves

Remember folks, these weekly non spoiler threads are just that - non spoiler. There are many other threads where "spoiler information" can be placed including the glossary and any of the other supplemental threads.

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we have done for other spotlighted reads.

We kicked off this book on January 3rd. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, on iTunes for the ipad, etc. However, be careful, some audible formats are abridged and not unabridged.

There is still a little time remaining to obtain the book and get started. There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Welcome,

~Bentley

Week of� February 7th (Week Six of our Discussion)

Week Six - February 7th - February 13th -> Chapters SIXTEEN, SEVENTEEN, and EIGHTEEN p 155 - 199
SIXTEEN - He Was Lying Down and He Was Lying Up and SEVENTEEN - This chapter begins Part Three| “Lost Causes� “The CIA Under Kennedy and Johnson, 1961 to 1968" - Nobody Knew What to Do and EIGHTEEN - We Had Also Fooled Ourselves

This is a link to the complete table of contents and syllabus thread:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/4...

We are off to a good beginning.

TO SEE ALL WEEK'S THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

Tim Weiner

Remember this is a non spoiler thread.

Chapter 16

The key quote in Chapter 16 is a quote by Jake Esterline:

"He was lying down and he was lying up," Jake Esterline said - down to the CIA's task force, up to the president and the new president-elect."

- Jake Esterline discussing Richard Bissell (Chief of the Clandestine Service)

This chapter discusses the Cuba situation and how it affected Ike and Kennedy. Ike was furious that the CIA had misjudged Castro. Additionally, the U-2 spy plane incident caused great havoc in Ike's presidency and in his relationship with the Soviet Union. During Ike's presidency the doctrine of plausible deniability was dead. Bissell also had a hand in the situation regarding Lumumba who was the prime minister of the Congo as well as misleading Eisenhower, Nixon and Kennedy. Ike realized at the end of his eight years, that he failed to reorganize the intelligence organization and that he was leaving a "legacy of ashes" to his successor.

Chapter 17

The key quote in Chapter 17 is a quote by President Kennedy's brother - Attorney General of the United States - Robert F. Kenndy.

"The attorney general of the United States, Robert F. Kennedy, jotted down some notes after he learned of the assassination (Trujillo). "The great problem now," he wrote, "is that we don't know what to do."

- Robert Kennedy discussing the assassination of Trujillo

And here the American people were going about their daily lives thinking that the White House and the CIA knew what they were doing to protect them. In this book, it is shocking to learn of the near misses that the US had in terms of being very close to be in a nuclear war. What is troubling is that it appears that the US bolstered certain leaders and then decided to eliminate them. Castro was a thorn in everybody's side including Ike, but Kennedy was convinced that something needed to be done with the dictator. The Bay of Pigs fiasco is discussed in detail as well as President Kennedy's attempt to pierce the Berlin Wall.

Chapter 18

Chapter 18 discusses the other covert operations and regime change plans going on from the White House and the CIA. First up was a plot to subvert the government of Brazil and oust its president. Second, was the plan to drop hundreds of Chinese Nationalists into Mao's China and the shooting down of a U-2 spy plane over China. Interfering with Haiti was next, followed by more attention being focused on Cuba and eliminating offensive missiles. Next were plans to overthrow Cheddi Jagan of British Guiana. Kennedy even ordered the director of central intelligence to conduct a program of domestic surveillance which set the precedent for further such violations of citizens' privacy by later Presidents Johnson, Nixon and George W. Bush. When Kennedy did not like the report on the SAM, he ordered General Carter to deep-six the report on the SAM. President Kennedy said, "Put it in the box and nail it shut." Right in the United States' back yard, missiles had been installed by the Soviets in Cuba and they were pointed at us. We had been deceived by Krushchev, but we had also fooled ourselves.

It is interesting that JFK was cornered into keeping Dulles at the head of the CIA, because Dulles' knowledge of JFK's romance with Inga Arvad, a suspected Nazi spy.

I know; isn't that dreadful. And having both brothers together was also not a good thing. I think in part Robert Kennedy with all of his covert operations may have led to his brother's demise. Who is to know.

In the chapter, I do not remember that the author named her; but what was also different is that they did not use the word "suspected".

I think that young Jackie had a full plate with him and the family.

The author didn't mention her, but I remember reading a little about it. I think it was an affair about the time he went into the navy-early in his career like 1941 or so.

Yes, and he probably had no idea of her political background etc. It sounds like a youthful indiscretion.

I'm not sure how wise it was to have RFK in charge of covert ops, especially regarding Cuba. The flip side is to have it "in house" with your closest adviser, your brother, but the guy had no experience.

JFK seems to have okayed a lot of covert ops, especially toppling governments. I didn't know this.

Yes, I was amazed at that too. I think it was Robert Kennedy going haywire and his brother trusting him. I too did not know any of this; but according to this book - Ike, Kennedy, Nixon, Lyndon Johnson and I guess Bush were pretty much all involved. And a host of others - it really is a nasty realization. And like I said earlier; who knows if this had anything to do with his assassination.

Well, this book re-confirms that the Bay of Pigs was a mess. Many people warned JFK that we would need the Marines to oust Castro and they were right. I think the CIA filled a vacuum-where else would you go to get this done? It is the only "game in town."

Yes - I hear you - and they were not up to the job.

One thing that struck me while reading these chapters was, in my mind at least, Robert Kennedy's legacy taking a major hit. The portrayal of him has always been one of seeking peace both racially inside the U.S, and militarily outside of it.

Clearly here in this book, one part of this image doesn't fully comply with reality. To me he was described as almost a nut case obsessed with removing those who do not agree with him and murder was a perfectly good option.

I try not to grow too cynical as I move into middle age, but to me this is just another fine example of judge someone on their actions not their words and image.

Eye opening chapter at how close we came time and time again to destruction.

Rodney wrote: "One thing that struck me while reading these chapters was, in my mind at least, Robert Kennedy's legacy taking a major hit. The portrayal of him has always been one of seeking peace both racially ..."

I read that RFK could be quite ruthless, so I guess that is a good match for what he did. But I agree, his image does take quite a hit here. I think RFK changed a lot when he ran in 1968, but you have to wonder if he captured the presidency, would he have learned about using covert operations from the first time around??

So I have to agree with most of what was said.

The only "hero" that stands out in these chapters is John McCone.

So I wonder why not or did Eisenhower tell Kennedy there was a "legacy of ashes".

Page 212 (of the softcover I am reading, says RFK wanted to avenge "family honor" over the Cuban deal and I think that he may have taken it a bit personally - maybe like George W Bush being angry from his first day in office that Saddam Hussein had attempted to make an attack on his father.

The American activites in these chapters are very discouraging - not only the intent but also the effectiveness.

I also do not really understand the reluctance to use the U2 over Cuba. I think that very likely if it had been shot down over Cuba it might have easily gotten to "crash" in the sea.

I don't think I before knew that the Russians already had missles there when the naval blockage was put in place around Cuba.

Rodney wrote: "One thing that struck me while reading these chapters was, in my mind at least, Robert Kennedy's legacy taking a major hit. The portrayal of him has always been one of seeking peace both racially ..."

All very true Rodney; but I think there have been always those rumors or undercurrent about Bobbie and some of his dealings. I have to say that reading this made my eyes open wider.

Vince wrote: "So I have to agree with most of what was said.

The only "hero" that stands out in these chapters is John McCone.

So I wonder why not or did Eisenhower tell Kennedy there was a "legacy of ashe..."

Did Ike not tell Kennedy because he was a member of the opposition party or did Ike not tell him because he figured it is his can of worms so let him find out in his own time. Either way; it was a great omission on the part of Ike.

There were some real eye openers in these chapters.

Vince, I too did not know that the Russians had missles in place before the blockade. It seems to me the entire Cuban missle crisis that is often portrayed was quite different from the events as described by this author.

RFK's image certainly takes a hit in these chapters. I'm not sure anyone comes out much of a hero in this book, at least so far.

McCone seemed to do OK

Alisa wrote: "Vince, I too did not know that the Russians had missles in place before the blockade. It seems to me the entire Cuban missle crisis that is often portrayed was quite different from the events as d..."
RFK & JFK - this reinforces my idea that had JFK not been assassinated he might have been highly criticized following his presidency - and maybe the same for RFK

Vince, I agree; but then again, the charismatic nature of his family really charmed the nation and I often wonder what exactly would have been his legacy; he was a very young man and could have done a whole lot more after the end of his presidency had he lived. I guess we will never know for both of them. But what has come out in this book is damaging (no doubt about it).

JFK and RFK rightfully deserve blame for some of the worst excesses of the Cold War. It is useful, I think, to put these matters into a broader historical context.

First, the Kennedy's were Irish-Catholic and had a dim view of Great Britain and its empire. Joe Sr. was widely considered a Nazi-sympathizer at worst and an appeaser at best; FDR had a very low opinion of the man. After the war, "appeasement" became a term of derision (the word had a different and mostly positive meaning before the war). The Kennedy brothers considered their old man's reputation to be a political liability and did their best to counter it by becoming vicious anti-communists in the Fifties. Not only were JFK and Nixon friends, so, too, were the Kennedys and Joseph McCarthy, another Irish-Catholic. On the day that the U.S. Senate censured McCarthy, JFK was noticeably absent.

Second, in 1961 the Democrats were still reeling at the Republican smears of Harry Truman as "the president who lost China." These smears arguably forced Truman's retirement from politics and swept the Republicans into power in 1953. The Kennedys were not immune from similar smears, given Joe Sr.'s reputation. Ironically, Truman opposed Kennedy in 1960, in part because of Joe Sr. and in part because Truman thought JFK was a playboy who would be "soft" on the communists. Relations between Truman and JFK were never good; Kennedy had a better relationship with Ike.

Third, after taking office, JFK felt the need to establish his manhood, especially since he believed Khrushchev considered him weak. Kennedy considered the Berlin Wall as a direct challenge to his authority, made possible by JFK's own dithering during the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

The Kennedy brothers cannot be excused for their Cold War high jinks during the first year and a half of the New Frontier. I am convinced, however, that the Missile Crisis was the turning point for both men. Here was a problem that Joe Sr. could not settle for them. Jack and Bobby had no one to turn to on an issue that literally threatened the future of humanity: the Russians could have killed about 150 million Americans and the United States could have killed as many as 450 million Russians and their allies. Thermonuclear annihilation is the sort of thing that grabs your attention and focuses your thoughts. The brothers were up to the task, as it turned out. They threaded the needle and managed to avoid catastrophe.

The next year, JFK made his famous American University speech, which signaled a new attitude toward the Cold War. The Soviets and Americans established the "Hot Line" agreement and moved toward ending atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons. Like the Missile Crisis, the assassination focused Bobby's mind and led to his rethinking about covert operations (both Bobby and LBJ thought the Russians were somehow involved in the assassination).

When Johnson assumed the presidency, he was convinced that the Kennedys would blame him for any foreign policy missteps; like JFK, Johnson didn't want to be blamed for "losing Vietnam." RFK was appalled at Johnson's conduct of the war and sought the first opportunity to desert the administration. By the time he assumed his seat in the Senate, Bobby Kennedy was a much different man than the guy who battled Hoffa and the Teamsters.

Like a few Democrats in 1968, I thought RFK's presidential bid was opportunistic and damaging to Eugene McCarthy's run against LBJ. By the time Bobby was murdered, he had effectively nudged McCarthy out of the race, opening the way for HHH, Nixon, and the continuing bloodshed in Vietnam. I never quite forgave Bobby for that, just as I never forgave Teddy from ruining Jimmy Carter's reelection in 1980. After all these years, however, I am convinced of RFK's sincerity and dedication to the poor and sick. I miss his voice, even if I do not miss some of his political choices.

Hello Vheissu,

You post some very interesting tidbits.

First, I never realized that Nixon and Kennedy were ever friends; nor did I ever hear anything about the McCarthy/Kennedy family connection.

Second, I think that Joe Sr alienated a lot of folks; but I do think that Truman came around some; although Kennedy seemed to seek out Ike; and it is unfortunate that Ike was not as forthcoming as he should have been about the CIA.

Third, I think that Kennedy did not feel comfortable around Khrushchev at any time during his presidency; there was too much conflict as the result of the Soviets meddling in Cuba.

Fourth, the brothers were clever and luckily the Soviets blinked. And I agree they should not be excused for the shenanigans at the beginning.

I agree that I think that Castro, Cuba and the Soviets (mainly executed by the Soviets) were responsible for the young President's early demise.

Yes, I think his brother's assassination changed Bobby forever. And I think his methods were quite suspect at the beginning of his brother's presidency; I do agree that his heart was in the right place in his dedication to the poor and sick. The Kennedys in Massachusetts especially are sorely missed.

Agreed, Bentley. I might disagree about the assassination, but your points are very well taken.

Some great posts. RFK worked for McCarthy from 1952-1953 thanks to his father's connections.

I think it is a valid point to say that JFK had something to prove, to be strong against Communism coming off his image, the close election, and his father's history. It fit well into the CIA's unofficial mission.

Vheissu wrote: "JFK and RFK rightfully deserve blame for some of the worst excesses of the Cold War. It is useful, I think, to put these matters into a broader historical context.

First, the Kennedy's were Irish-..."

Hello Vheissu

I too find your post very interesting.

I don't know enough to know that all of it is valid - was Truman pushed out of office as the man who lost China?????????? I read the McCulluch biography of Truman

David McCullough

and cannot remember that referred to - I read it some years ago.


Did the Kennedys really dislike the Brits - Did Joe Sr. only want the ambassadorship to England because he knew the langurage or why?

Anyway thanks for the post - there are some very valid observations.

Maybe for the last 50 years yound Presidents in their 40s have had trouble starting to run the country. Kennedyonly had three years - let's hope the current one can do better in the third year and beyond.

Vince wrote: "Vheissu wrote: "JFK and RFK rightfully deserve blame for some of the worst excesses of the Cold War. It is useful, I think, to put these matters into a broader historical context.

First, the Ken..."

Vince, from what I remember, Joe, Jr. campaigned and gave money to FDR wanting to be part of the administration. He was offered the ambassadorship because he was loyal, a good negotiator, and rich (the ambassador had to entertain lavishly). I don't think FDR was too concerned about policy, because ambassadors don't make policy, but serve as his eyes and ears. However, it was extraordinary times.

There wasn't a direct link to Joe, Sr. and the CIA, but it seems the upper-level CIA folks knew Joe's history and JFK's for that matter.

offers a brief overview of the "Truman lost China" debate, including some good references, including:

Present At The Creation Part 1 Of 2 by Dean Acheson

by Jonathan Fenby

by David K. Johnson

by Arnold offner

and

by Patrick Tyler

I would add:

by Robert Dallek by

Harry Truman's China policy: McCarthyism and the diplomacy of hysteria, 1947-1951 by Lewis McCarroll Purifoy

and

by Walter Isaacson

For the smears, see

John A. Stormer

by John A. Stormer

and the irrepressible

by Ann Coulter

Bryan wrote: "Vince wrote: "Vheissu wrote: "JFK and RFK rightfully deserve blame for some of the worst excesses of the Cold War. It is useful, I think, to put these matters into a broader historical context.

Fi..."

Thanks

very interesting - if you can pick one that is most effective and an easy read I will put it on my list for a possible future read - but this club may, for some time, limit my time options for non club books and my outside reading

I went to hear Dr.Howard Jones speak about the Bay of Pigs and CIA's role in the Bay of Pigs, and he must of used the same sources, because he came up with the same conclusions: the CIA messed up bad. Originally, the Cubans would land at a good port of Trinidad. The mountains were close for cover and they were a lot of anti-Castro people around. But Kennedy said it was "too public" a place. Move it.

The CIA never told Kennedy that the Bay of Pigs was 80 miles from the mountains, big swamp land, and no anti-Castro people for a uprising. Sad.

Howard Jones

That is sad.

It is; he slammed Bissell as a leader of covert ops, a guy who never had any experience in this area.

It just seems like news for the CIA never is good.