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Welcome to the continuation of the wonderful book: All Quiet on the Western Front!

by Erich Maria Remarque

Elizabeth S is leading this discussion.

This is a May/June/July discussion so everybody has plenty of time to read this selection.

This week's assigned reading is as follows for Week Six:

Week 6, June 6-12: Chapter Six (pages 99-136))

This is the eighth historical fiction group selected book.

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers if you are catching up.

This book was kicked off on May 2nd.

We always enjoy the participation of all group members. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. Usually any book offered as one of our discussion selections can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle or even Audible. You usually can also check out Barnes and Noble or Borders and they have the books in stock in their stores and on line. Audible has a summer sale going on and this book is available for download; oddly - Kindle, Barnes and Noble and Borders do not have this book available as a downloadable version but hardcopies and paperbacks are available as noted above.

This is a non spoiler thread.

Welcome,

~Bentley

Here is a link to the introductory thread:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Here is a link to the Table of Contents and Syllabus:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Here is the link to the glossary which is a spoiler thread so beware if you do not like spoilers of any kind - but the links added here will be very useful in understanding the people discussed, their background, the events and the battles, or the environment itself, etc.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Here is a link to the Military History folder which deals with World War I: (there is a lot here)

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/group_...

Thank you for joining the History Book Club on this journey. And it is never too late to start.

Baumer's company is moved to the front with rumors of an offensive. During most of the chapter, Baumer describes the general horrors of the front. The rats, the shelling, the petrified recruits, the lack of food, the enemy rush, retreating, fighting and defending themselves "against annihilation," advancing back through ground they just retreated through and scrounging for food.

While on sentry duty, Baumer is exhausted. As he watches the shells stream through the sky he thinks about love and his lost youth. The days go by, they attack and are attacked. Baumer describes the screaming of the wounded, the slow death, the morbid collection of souvenirs, it just goes on and on. In the midst of an attack, Baumer jumps into a dugout and finds himself with Himmelstoss, who pretends to be seriously wounded and only rejoins the attack when commanded by an officer. The passing of time is uncertain. They try to teach the recruits, but recruits still die much faster than the experienced soldiers. Haie is fatally wounded. Baumer tells us of the carnage, the days of horrors, and the front has only shifted by a few hundred yards.

Finally, they are relieved. Baumer finds Kat and Kropp. But only 32 men are left of the 150 who went forward in their Company.

Thank you Elizabeth for a wonderful start to this week's reading.

Relief for Baumer comes none too soon. I have to think about what relief meant for these men; was it a relief or a different form of hell.

Only 32 of 150 left of the group who went forward; terrible statistics and why were so many men simply sacrificed? For me, the war stripped them of their identities.

Bentley wrote: "Thank you Elizabeth for a wonderful start to this week's reading. I have sent you a couple of PMs; could you respond to the PMs via that medium when you get an opportunity; thanks."

Yes, I'll go look at those as soon as I can. Hopefully later today.

Thanks.

So here is the first exposure to the fighting - not just laying wire - it is extremely overwhelming. - the running back and forth while fighting using rifles and spades - I was ready to fall asleep in exhaustion just after reading it.
The waiting, the rats, the waiting, the shelling, the food the individual responses from the cowardly Himmelstoss, the dying comrades, the dying new young fellows - And we have to remember that Remarque was wounded five times during the war so after the first four he had to return (I wonder what we do now in the Mid-east?)- the melancholy experienced by Baumer - and in the end the 32 men left in the group march off. It gets more powerful -

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was exhausted just reading this chapter. The more carefully you read it, the more exhausting it is, and the more you notice all the horrific details. (I keep using the word "horror" when talking about the front. Remarque does a scary good job communicating that.)

Remember the beginning of the book? It struck me that at the end of this chapter, we are in the same position as the beginning of the book, i.e. just back from duty at the front. But this time it is so much worse. Not only was the mortality rate even higher, but we have some emotional investment in some of the characters. We know Haie is wounded, probably fatally. The peat digger will surely never finish his time in the army and retire as a village constable. We, the readers, feel more sadness for Haie than we did for Kemmerich in the first chapter because we know Haie. Remarque is good, isn't he.

Elizabeth S wrote: "Remember the beginning of the book? It struck me that at the end of this chapter, we are in the same position as the beginning of the book, i.e. just back from duty at the front. But this time it..."

Well we are and we aren't in the same position I think. The soldiers are, with greater losses, in the same position but we are now exposed to the grim grim part of the war which we weren't before so our perspective is different and the soldiers are being ground further down, if they are living, so all is changed. Also the young recruits being noticed implies it is getting tougher in general.
Just some thinking on paper

Yes, Vince, that is kinda the point. We're in the same position, but we're not. They are in the same position, but it isn't quite the same. I'm remembering how losing 70 of 150 men seemed such high losses in the first chapter, and now they've lost 118. They went from almost 50% mortality to over 75%. And this time it is so much more dramatic for us, the readers.

What do you all think of Himmelstoss now? I wasn't really surprised that he was acting the coward. That seems to fit with bullies and people full of themselves--when they are actually faced with action they often don't measure up.

It is almost as if we are introduced to two new characters in this chapter, one-third of the way through the book: War and Chance.

We have been hearing about War over the course of the book, and in a way only saw it in profile when they were laying the line down. But in this chapter, we really see it sweat and bleed, and get to know it's true face.

(Coincidentally, we also meet another character late in the book (a quarter of the way through): Himmelstoss. While the narrator, Paul, et al give us a really good description of him and his tyrannical ways prior to meeting him, we only know the true measure of Himmelstoss when he first meets War. This is probably a weak connection, but it crossed my mind, nonetheless.

Chance also really shows itself, and it is really the first time we meet it full on, despite the cemetery scene. Actually, I take back that we meet Chance here... We just learn more about it. And what really strikes me is that Chance isn't as much chance-filled as we'd think. As Paul notes in this chapter, the new recruits lack key training (and experience, one would say), that would increase one's chance of survival. had the new recruits been properly trained, then Chance would favor them more, but even with proper training it can bring you great harm, as seen in the (probable) death of Haie.

Himmelstoss lacks the real world practical experience of warfare... As we assume this is his first time in the trenches, I'm sure he responds very like other recruits fresh from boot (the recruits we have been meeting are poorly trained). What makes him lesser in our eyes is that he's an officer, I think.

Elizabeth S wrote: "Remember the beginning of the book? It struck me that at the end of this chapter, we are in the same position as the beginning of the book, i.e. just back from duty at the front. But this time it..."

Autumn Wrote:
Boy oh boy, Remarque is good isn't he? I'm crushed. I've really grown to love these characters.
I think of Haie as a symbol of the death of everyone, even the 30-something still living. I think it is the death of their dreams (such as Haie had), the death of their youth, the death of their identities- and all of the men have really changed now. No man will ever be the same after that,
pg 76, " They arise no more; we are dead and they stand remote on the horizon, they are an apparition, a mysterious reflection drawing us home, that we fear and love without hope."
Then later in the next paragraph,
"And even if these scenes of our youth were given back to us we would hardly know what to do. The tender secret influence that passed from them to us could not arise again".
I also think that Haie being stabbed in the back is symbolic, that these men did not really know what hit them, did not fully understand what type of changes were coming for them, that they had no idea the varying consequences/intensities of war really until this bloody day.
Maybe only Kat knows b/c he's been in this place before and maybe this is why he seems so indifferent sometimes, responsible for the other men yet indifferent to them?
Oh, and I think Himmeltoss was an idiot, and that this chapter symbolizes that rank etc means nothing in a situation like that...and that everything Himmeltoss believed, all his preconceived arrogant notions about war and the men ranked below him were wrong.

Oops not sure why my comment is italicized?

Autumn wrote: "Oops not sure why my comment is italicized?"

Do you know much about html? If you look back in your comment, there should be "</i>" to stop the italics. If those 4 characters accidentally got erased, you can put them in where you want the italics to end and that should fix it.

I like how you treat Chance and War as characters, Misty. That does make it easier to talk about them.

Probability is an interesting thing. By their actions, the soldiers can increase or decrease the probability that they will die or be injured. While there is still always the possibility that death may occur, it does happen less often to those experienced enough to avoid it.

Misty wrote: "Himmelstoss lacks the real world practical experience of warfare... As we assume this is his first time in the trenches, I'm sure he responds very like other recruits fresh from boot (the recruits we have been meeting are poorly trained). What makes him lesser in our eyes is that he's an officer, I think."

We do expect more from officers, and even more from officers who push their subordinates to the limit without any compassion. I think it isn't just that he was an officer, but that he was a jerk of an officer. An officer who was sympathetic and approachable may have been treated more like the recruits. Himmelstoss was so full of himself and prideful, I have a morbid fascination seeing him brought down to the soldier's level.

Great comments, Autumn. Remarque really is a good writer. I sometimes forget that he has an agenda--to show how war ruins everyone's lives. While Remarque doesn't really write anything that is false, there are some aspects of war that he doesn't mention. As Bentley brought up in Week 5, there are many ways that war can change people for the better.

I keep comparing Haie's fatal injury (in WWI I doubt anyone could survive such a hit) to Kemmerich. I cry for Haie so much more than for Kemmerich, because we've gotten to know him. As you said, it really makes a difference.

Autumn wrote: "...everything Himmeltoss believed, all his preconceived arrogant notions about war and the men ranked below him were wrong. "

What a great way of putting it. When you find out that so much of what you believed is wrong, it takes a while to adjust and rebuild your world. Of course, some people never adjust.

Elizabeth S wrote: "Misty wrote: "Himmelstoss lacks the real world practical experience of warfare... As we assume this is his first time in the trenches, I'm sure he responds very like other recruits fresh from boot ..."

I had the impression that Himmelstoss was an NCO - a non commissioned officer - similar to a sergeant not a lieutenant or higher..........

I don;t have the book with me though to check

just a comment

Elizabeth S wrote: "Autumn wrote: "Oops not sure why my comment is italicized?"

Do you know much about html? If you look back in your comment, there should be "" to stop the italics. If those 4 characters..."

Thanks you Elizabeth S! I learn something new every day. Wasn't familiar with it! It's fixed, thanks!:)

Looks great now, Autumn. Good job!

Vince wrote: "I had the impression that Himmelstoss was an NCO - a non commissioned officer - similar to a sergeant not a lieutenant or higher.......... "

You are right, Vince. It says on page 23 of my copy that he is "Corporal Himmelstoss." Thanks for setting us straight.

What exactly is an NCO? I know what it stands for (non-commissioned officer), but not what it means.

It is a rank of command for non commisioned officers - so a sergeant or a corporal - so a sergeant will be able to order - take decisions for corporals or below in appropriate situations.

Himmelstoß is a postman who plays a soldier. He may bully the recruits at the barracks. From the war, he has no idea. But he makes the mistake of the wrong recruits to get angry. As punishment he was transferred to the front. His rank is Corporal. This is the leader of approximately 15-30 soldiers.

It helps to understand what a commissioned officer is, i.e. someone in a position of authority who holds a commission from their government. The World English Dictionary says that a commission is "authority to undertake or perform certain duties or functions." In the military, it now has the more specific meaning of "a document conferring a rank on an officer." In the army, I believe commissioned officers are those of rank from Lieutenant and up. I believe that commissioned officers usually go through some type of officer's training school and get a commission upon graduation, without spending time as a private or whatever.

A non-commissioned officer, on the other hand, is given a smaller amount of authority. According to wikipedia, "Non-commissioned officers (usually) obtain their position of authority by promotion through the enlisted ranks."

Of course, in times of war you probably get a higher percentage of commissioned officers who progressed through the ranks. Rapid high mortality will do that.

One thing is surprising. Previously occurred in the whole novel almost no officers, sergeants and corporals. Baumer is an infantryman. Who gives the orders to him and his comrades? The war is a matter of ordinary soldiers. It just so happens, apparently without any human influence.

Baseni wrote: "One thing is surprising. Previously occurred in the whole novel almost no officers, sergeants and corporals. Baumer is an infantryman. Who gives the orders to him and his comrades? The war is a mat..."

I think Kat is a step higher in the ladder than Baumer although I am unsure of his title? Maybe not but I thought I had read that somewhere or maybe it's just that I picture him to be so.

Autumn wrote: "I think Kat is a step higher in the ladder than Baumer although I am unsure of his title? Maybe not but I thought I had read that somewhere or maybe it's just that I picture him to be so...."

I can not remember, but the German army in the empire, including in WWI, had only the "Gefreiten" and the recruits. The "Gefreite" is comparable to the Private First Class (U.S. Army) or the Lance Corporal (British Army).

Baseni wrote: "Autumn wrote: "I think Kat is a step higher in the ladder than Baumer although I am unsure of his title? Maybe not but I thought I had read that somewhere or maybe it's just that I picture him to b..."

Oh, interesting, I did not know those specifics. Thanks Banseni. I learn something new every day from this discussion.

Baseni wrote: "One thing is surprising. Previously occurred in the whole novel almost no officers, sergeants and corporals. Baumer is an infantryman. Who gives the orders to him and his comrades? The war is a mat..."

It is an interesting observation, Baseni. You get the feeling the orders are coming out of some machine: put up wire, attack, retreat, shell this position, etc.

Baumer does talk about the company commander, who I gather is over the 150 men (when they are full strength). We see him in the first chapter, when Baumer says he tells the cook to give the men the entire company's allotment. Also when Tjaden has his little trial. And at the end of this chapter, the company commander has his arm in a sling and calls the men and is stricken to see only 32 survived.

Partly because we don't ever get a name for him, and Baumer doesn't talk about him very often, it is hard to remember there is a company commander. As with so much else, I think Remarque did it that way on purpose. Baumer says his company commander is a decent guy--and that kinda goes against the points that Remarque is trying to make.