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Some general examples would be 1984 or "The Matrix", "Star Wars", etc.

Yay!!! Let's get this party started!

Sorry, that's the most I can come up with for now.

The Administration
One of my all time favourites :)

Anne wrote: "Yay!!! Let's get this party started!

Sorry, that's the most I can come up with for now."

*lol* Anne.

Casey wrote: "The Administration
One of my all time favourites :)"

Me too. I am not always a fan of dystopian scifi because it can be too dark and grim for me. And there is plenty dark and grim about The Administration, but it is so good it's worth it.

Anne wrote: "Yay!!! Let's get this party started!

Sorry, that's the most I can come up with for now."

What Anne is probably too polite to bring up is her own excellent dystopian novel 18% Gray. This one is very funny and not especially grim, since only part of the country is dystopic, and the MCs go on missions there rather than living there.

And it has a very nice cover:

Anne Cain did the cover. She's great, and I she pretty much found the perfect Matt. :)

Yeah, it's hard to think of it as a dystopian book, honestly. How not-utopian does it have to be to be dystopian? Anything that's NOT utopian? Or does it actually have to set up a world where everything is bleak and oppressive?

Anne, I liked 18%! And Oco's one to talk; she wrote Esperanza. Both great books!

Thanks! :)

There's actually a listopia list called 'Futuristic Fiction' but the explanation sounds like it's for Dystopian/Post Apoc. m/m romance. I'm personally a bit confused by the label 'futuristic'. I use it (probably incorrectly) when I want to describe erotica type Scifi romance that is the least technical and is really all about the sex. http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/70...

I've heard of another book that could come under the GLBT dystopian heading (not romance): The Butterfly and the Flame by Dana De Young. Has anyone read it? I thought it looked fairly interesting.

I would never have thought to classify Star Wars as Dystopian. It doesn't take place in our Earth future and doesn't really reflect on how our society or humanity was deeply changed. Isn't it too far in the future? I always think of dystopian as still taking place in a recognizable earth landscape, and space battles, living on other planets and aliens don't really fit into that definition for me.

Anyway, just some thoughts for the discussion.;)

Hmm. "Star Wars" isn't't perhaps the best example. But to me it is dystopian in an intellectual sense- peoples suffering under a supreme fascist rule. Think of the Empire as the USSR or possibly the Nazis. And of course it's got the whole sci-fi thing going.

It's important to note that a fictionalized dystopian society doesn't have to have humans or be time-relevant. The dystopian element is taken from any existing element in society by the author and extrapolated and magnified to the Nth degree, to the point where the element has become a fatal flaw to the society or the individuals in society. The chosen element is usually something the author sees as being a potential problem to real society in the not far-future.

Certainly Counterpunch by Aleksandr Voinov. All the books of that serie seems good, but I read just this one up to now.
It's a very interesting theme, in a society where slavery is the punishment to some crimes.
That's the serie

I'm not sure I would count slavery as a dystopia - the Belonging Verse that Rachel has created is more of an alternative history or alternate reality than dystopic in my view, particularly given the definition from mm above. Other may disagree.

I guess in a loose way you could argue that there is the potential in our consumer driven society to sell yourself to the establishment or to a business conglomeration. In that respect you could maybe swing this series into it.

Now Break and Enter, by the same authors but set in a different world definitely qualifies for me. It's a great read. Set slightly in the future where large conpanies have far too much power and with a lot of high tech stuff - not sci fi because the tech is currently taking its babysteps in the current world but a mix of cyberpunk/distopic feel.

Evenfall is another one a lot of people rate. I've only read part of the first book, I always seem to get distracted, but what I have read is good.

Casey wrote: "I'm not sure I would count slavery as a dystopia - the Belonging Verse that Rachel has created is more of an alternative history or alternate reality than dystopic in my view, particularly given th..."

I don't know neither. There is a lot of confusion about distopian in movies or novels. I like to believe it's like in this definition, of a very well know online dictionary.

dys·to·pi·a (ds-tp-)
n.
1. An imaginary place or state in which the condition of life is extremely bad, as from deprivation, oppression, or terror.
2. A work describing such a place or state: "dystopias such as Brave New World" (Times Literary Supplement).

So I see that book I read as distopian because of the quality of life "extremely bad" as an alternative reality where crimes can be punished by slavery.

But mods are free to delete my post if it's not ok, and should not be saw as a distopian novel. I consider it like that, but maybe I should not.

:-)

Gosh, thanks Meghan. *beams*

Hmm. Yeah, I think I take the more narrow view of dystopia. It doesn't have to be about human society but usually is, because introducing aliens or space-faring would detract from the dystopic theme. To me, in dystopia, the story IS the dystopia, for the most part. It isn't so much action or small aspects of that dystopia. So I would never call Star Wars a dystopia, even if the society is not a good one. To me, Star Wars is pure shoot-em-up space opera: rousing good fun, but purists wouldn't even call it 'true' SF.

I'd probably also not count straight slavery-in-the-future stories, though I might if the story was intensely about that change in society (haven't read the actual books in question). I'd agree that the Administration is dystopia, yes. Though it centers around two characters, the backdrop of a really creepy society is pretty damn important to the story.

Esperanza (mine) is definitely dystopia, of the frequent post-apocalyptic variety. :) Am writing another one now --m/m though trying to keep the social-sf aspects of the story in foreground -- I loooveee dystopia as a plot.

Anyway. All opinion. Dystopic SF is a feel, a dark future, grim. If it isn't at least somewhat depressing, it's probably not a dystopia. Often revolving around some other social group's attempt to create a utopia.

MandyM, read the description on that. How is it GLBT? Is the girl gay or does she find an enclave? Sounds interesting. Just not clear from the description is all.

:-(
I'm confused :-(
I always saw Dystopia as the opposite of Utopia. Not necessary a novel (or movie) in the future, I can be also present, but the reality is very unpleasant (that's why the opposite of utopia). That's why I consider Counterpunch as Dystopia.

As I consider also A Chip in His Shoulder by L.A. Witt as a Distopian society

Bookwatcher wrote: "But mods are free to delete my post if it's not ok, and should not be saw as a distopian novel. I consider it like that, but maybe I should not."

I don't think your post warrents deletion - it is a discussion thread afterall and one person's utopia is another dystopia and all that :)

In the case of the books you mention - the bad life is only for a small minority. Slavery isn't the norm in that society, it's a means some take to help family members out of poverty or as punishment for a crime. Similar to Slave Breakers - an alternative history where sexual slavery is legal in some parts of the world. The poor can sell their children as sex slaves and although technology is similar to today - cars, trains etc they dress in tunics and trews laced at the waist and knee high boots. There is oppression, but to me it isn't a dystopian society.

To me dysopia refers to a society wide situation where for example, a whole portion of society is oppressed because something sets them apart or just because they aren't part of the ruling elite.

But there will be those that agree with you and see any kind of legal slavery as part of a dystopic society because in order to have legal slavery something has gone wrong.

Oco wrote: "Gosh, thanks Meghan. *beams*

Hmm. Yeah, I think I take the more narrow view of dystopia. It doesn't have to be about human society but usually is, because introducing aliens or space-faring would ..."

That's an interesting viewpoint on dystopia and one I've never thought of. It's possible we could encounter aliens which live in a society that humans would consider dystopic, while they consider it utopic.

I have the Twilight Zone theme in my head now. Great.

I think Star Wars is dystopic, because it was clear that the galaxy's residents were very largely unhappy under the thumb of the Empire.

I really don't know Casey :-)
Seriously... I had some classes about it, just for fun, and my sister really had more serious writing group classes about sci-fi (she is a writer) and all the subcategories. I prefer to see Dystopia the inverse of Utopia, just to simplify, but I would love to learn more
:-)
My second example, A chip in his shoulder by L.A. Witt has vampires, and I know many sci-fi fans would scream if a paranormal creature is present, but it's a society where rich people life in high buildings, with clean air, while a huge part of society is in the polluted place, in the ground level.
So maybe I should not consider Counterpunch :-\ I don't know, seriously. Your message is certainly very logical, and yes, it's not a big part of the society that live in slavery, but the fact there is this possibility I see it as oppressive, aka, a Distopian society.

Someone read the freebie that now it not available anymore? Pathfinder. But maybe it ca be better classified as post-apocalyptic. Oh man, here I go again... confused as how I should classify it
:-(
It was a very interesting sci-fi, in a very horrible society. I'm glad it will be published
:-)
certainly I'll buy it

I think that one by LA Witt would fall into my classification of dystopia regardless of whether it has a paranormal element. I also think it's possible to throw alien societities into that mix either without humanity present at all or with humans coming to terms with their place in a newly discovered alien dystopia - hmmm I may well have fed myself a plot bunny there *runs off to make notes....

Bookwatcher wrote: ":-(
I'm confused :-("

Haha. :) Don't be :(. GR is a utopia, after all, you MUST be happy. Or else. :)

As a social construct, utopia is the impossible opposite of dystopia. As a genre of literature, one could argue that there is no utopia. A truly utopic society is free of conflict, and without conflict, there is no story. Stories that sometimes get called utopias are really called that with some sense of irony (e.g., Brave New World) because in fact, one man's utopia is another man's hell. A truly utopic book would be propaganda, not a story.

So I'd argue that pretty much any novel that shows an individual's or society's relationship to their government (or other social authority) must be dystopic (since a story requires conflict). Which would widen the field of what qualifies as 'dystopia' as a genre to be so inclusive as to be practically useless.

Dystopia, as a SF subgenre, falls under the larger umbrella of social-SF, for the most part. And the focus in social SF is on the social/cultural/political aspects of a society. It makes the reader question and self-question and think hard about the underpinnings of that society, it is essentially brainy. The Administration did that. Brave New World, 1984, Handmaids Tale, Neuromancer, Lord of the Flies (interesting, since it is not generally considered SF but is certainly a dystopic novel). The focus is on picking apart 'what went wrong'. That's the crux of it, for me. The story of an iron-fisted dictator isn't likely to be a dystopia to me, because there is no question there. A spoiled brat became king. End of story. OTOH examining how common human behavior can result in some pretty scary societies is fascinating.

You know, there are entire literature classes that focus on utopia/dystopia themes in literature. I'd love to take one; it's a fascinating topic.

I hope I don't sound too much like I'm lecturing... :/ It is, in the end, just an opinion. Even if it's a stubborn one. :D

sorry, just catching up here: first, Bookwatcher, my goodness, your posts are SOOO on topic. And this whole discussion is a great one; I'm enjoying it.

I'd agree with Casey that one feature (not required, but most times) of dystopias is that a wide range of people are affected.

No, dystopian novels do not need to be SF. But they usually are. The very nature of SF is to examine questions like that. If there are paranormal elements in a dystopic setting (e.g., vampires) I'd base my sense of whether it was dystopia or not on whether or not the book was really looking at the social/cultural aspect of what caused/maintains that dystopia. Not just having the vampires taking charge and wreaking havoc on the humans.

Casey wrote: "Bookwatcher wrote: "But mods are free to delete my post if it's not ok, and should not be saw as a distopian novel. I consider it like that, but maybe I should not."

I don't think your post warrents deletion - it is a discussion thread afterall ..."

Heavens no! This is a great discussion.

Oco wrote: "Anyway. All opinion. Dystopic SF is a feel, a dark future, grim. If it isn't at least somewhat depressing, it's probably not a dystopia. "

Yeah, I'd say this is the minimum.

I usually think of dystopias as at least partly caused or exacerbated by governmental or leadership failings. So I wouldn't say that a post-apocalyptic society is necessarily also a dystopia. Think of Wall-E after they return to earth.

Anne wrote: "Yeah, it's hard to think of it as a dystopian book, honestly. How not-utopian does it have to be to be dystopian? Anything that's NOT utopian? Or does it actually have to set up a world where everything is bleak and oppressive? "

I agree - it is not a dystopian novel. It includes a society that I would consider dystopian, but that isn't where the MC's live.

I would say the same about Star Wars - there are plenty of stories that I can imagine being told in that world that would qualify, but the story we follow isn't about that - doesn't live there.

Charming wrote: "there are plenty of stories that I can imagine being told in that world that would qualify, but the story we follow isn't about that - doesn't live there."

I think in a way, that's the key.

I was thinking about this and came up with fascist Germany (and others) as an example. If you told that story as fiction and concentrated on Hitler (and others) and how that government destroyed so many people, and maybe on how other countries came in and fought a war to stop it... that wouldn't really be a dystopic novel. However if you focused on how the society as a whole came to be, what kinds of fears were exploited in order to have so many basically good people be able to do or support such horrible acts -- that would be a dystopic novel. Same setting, different focus.

I *think* that gets across the distinction I'm trying to make, but reserve the right to change my mind... still stewing on this... :)

But if you tell the story from Hitler's POV, it's someone striving for utopia. Assuming he believed his own press.

*shiver* Right. Hitler and his cronies were trying to build a utopia.

Damn plot bunny...

Casey wrote: "To me dysopia refers to a society wide situation where for example, a whole portion of society is oppressed because something sets them apart or just because they aren't part of the ruling elite. "

This got me thinking, how about if most of the society is oblivious and only small number of people feels oppressed and rebels against the oppressors (The Matrix, The Island and a gay scifi novel I recently read, Zero Hour), I usually categorized it as dystopia...

Zorya wrote: "This got me thinking, how about if most of the society is oblivious and only small number of people feels oppressed and rebels against the oppressors"

Oh, definitely agree that still makes it a dystopia... most of humanity are clusless to what's really going on (we are...really)... it's like that saying - is a slave really a slave if he doesn't know he's enslaved? - oh yes he is...

First, I'm so thrilled this topic is grabbing some interest!

Re: msg 17 - Oco, you made the distinction of POV from inside vs outside the society. I would argue that regardless, the society is dystopian, but you are right about the storyline not being dystopian. Thus to me the Empire in Star Wars is dystopian since they rule by fear, destruction and murder. But I guess the movie is more like an inspirational story- the little guy fights for the freedom of everyone.

Re: msg 16 - Bookwatcher you are totally on topic! Also I loved Pathfinder! But it's been a while since I last read it so can't remember if the society is dystopian but the MC is certainly living in oppressive conditions.

Oco wrote: "How is it GLBT? Is the girl gay or does she find an enclave? Sounds interesting. Just not clear from the description is all..."

Yes on rereading the blurb it's actually a transgender story. I was actually reading the reviews on Amazon which is where I got the wrong impression.

oh!
Loving all the responses!
Wow, I'm learning a lot here... and I'm not :-( anymore
:D

@mm_reads: I think pathfinder is Dystopian and I'm curious of how it will be done now. As a online fiction it was already VERY well written and with a superb quality. We shall see now how it will be released :-)

Oco wrote: "The focus is on picking apart 'what went wrong'. That's the crux of it, for me. The story of an iron-fisted dictator isn't likely to be a dystopia to me, because there is no question there."

WOW!!!! THANKS!
Wow I love your answer (message #23)

and you know that part of your comment is part of the reason I classify Counterpunch as Dystopia. The fact it's a oppressive society, in an alternative reality is not the only reason. In my review, what I told is also something I want to add here,
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
but don't want to spoil it to you all (view spoiler)[(I'll try to explain it without spoil the story)... anyway, the fact it, the crime itself is not the reason of the hard punishment, be a slave, but against who it's done. I mean, if it was a random person, killed, the main character would never end as a slave, but being a VERY important person, the daughter of someone VERY important to that society his crime is punished with abuse.. and he accept it. Because the hero think he must be punished, and his conscious is his worst enemy. (hide spoiler)]

:-)

Bookwatcher wrote: "but don't want to spoil it to you all"

A couple of thoughts. First, spoiler tags (click some html is ok above). Second, if there is interest, start a topic on the book with **SPOILERS** in the title. Because yeah, sometimes you can't discuss a book in depth without talking about how it came out.

Charming wrote: "Bookwatcher wrote: "but don't want to spoil it to you all"

A couple of thoughts. First, spoiler tags (click some html is ok above). Second, if there is interest, start a topic on the book with *..."

done :-)
add a spoiler

Oco wrote: "*shiver* Right. Hitler and his cronies were trying to build a utopia."

Isn't that what one of you said further up... that often a dyspoia comes out of a desire to create the utopia of a limited few. The utopian society becomes a distortd monster for the many.

I'm sure I read that up there - unless I'm jumping timelines again and experiencing alternate realities. Always happens on a Tuesday that...

*lol* cracking me up.

Nope no alternate realities, sorry to burst your bubble. I did say that. Hitler is a great example, with his dreams of Aryan nation and all.

Ah, okay ;)
Good to know I'm where I started out this morning.

I just came across this. It's not just defining dystopia as a sub-genre, but even breaking that down into specific types of dystopias! Cool, huh...

"Dystopian (crowded world, gilded cage, jaded society, theocracy, etc.)
The opposite of Utopian, these horrid societies are all too easy to imagine. In most such tales, the protagonist seeks to better his-or-her own life, if not to liberate the entire society.
Cyril Kornbluth's novel The Marching Morons depicts a cityscape jammed with idiotic yet pampered workers.
Often this subgenre depicts inquisitive heroes breaking free of a bottled utopia, such as the sealed city in Douglas R. Mason's novel Eight Against Utopia. Another example is the spaceship Axiom in Disney/Pixar's movie Wall-E. (In both stories the need for protective confinement had, unknown to the characters, diminshed over time.)
A.E. Van Vogt's novel The Empire of Isher portrays a decadent and sybaritic world-ruling class.
Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale and Robert Heinlein's Revolt in 2100 are novels that depict a puritanical (and rather hypocritical) religious ruling class."
-from

I think this dystopia will be of interest. It's 2084 and the religious right has won. Set in Topeka and the Pastor Governor rules with a Bible in each fist and the computer in your hovel. Fred Phelps Plaza is the site for Friday stonings. What do you think happens to gays?

I wonder if I would consider real societies dystopian if they have characteristics of fictional 'future' dystopias. Compare women in fundamentalist Islamic theocracies and The Handmaid's Tale or The Carnivorous Lamb in Franco's Spain.