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This thread can be about female characters and how they are written by authors of either sex and also about the general trend in female characters throughout history. There are certain cliches that will definitely come up. You know which ones they are...

This kind of thing confuses and confounds me. These stories are very enjoyable, even recommendable:

Untraceable
A Cold Day For Murder

The heroines are wonderfully spunky, intelligent and capable, yet, ultimately, it's the male hero (arguably not even the main character) that winds up coming in to save the day. Please don't misunderstand me, I've used exmples of books that I liked and would recommend here. I'm just curious.

Here's an example of a character I think is a strong hero (actually, as someone aptly pointed out, she's weak. Weak in that she's not unrealistically able to deal with everything, affected by what's happening and makes mistakes, yet, she is the undisputed hero of the story. That blog was making an intelligent plea for male and femal characters to be treated fairly, given equal importance in the story.)

Snake Skin
(the subject matter of this book means that it's not for children, it's the hero that I'm focusing on.)

I've participated in other discussion groups where we were asked to recommend books with strong female leading characters and it was staggering how difficult that seemed to be. There were many examples of strong secondary characters that were female, but the closer the character was to the lead role, the less realistic they seemed to be depicted.

Is this art imitating life or unjust/unfair treatment of female characters?

I don't Know but I;m curious as to what you think of Jennifer Fallon's female characters?

It's true, it seems hard to remember a book with a strong female lead.
I can think of one, though, called MOTHER by russian author Gorky. The interesting think about this book is that the lead starts off as a rather uninteresting character, an abused and passive wife, and turns out to be a brave revolutionary, who serves as a mother figure for all the others. Also, it's interesting that it is written by a man. Ehehe.

Billie wrote: "It's true, it seems hard to remember a book with a strong female lead.
I can think of one, though, called MOTHER by russian author Gorky. The interesting think about this book is that the lead sta..."

That sound interesting? I find that they are decent secondary characters in abundance. Like Holly and Julie in Monster Hunter International

Jack Daniels by Konrath is a fairly strong female character too.

What's curious to me is that of the four books we've cited, one is written by a woman, two are written by men, and one that is an example of the opposite is written by a woman.

Is this because there are simply more male authors? Male authors are more likely to write a strong female character? or simply the luck of the draw?

I, for example, am a female and enjoy writing through a male perspective. It's an mind opening experience, and a good writing exercise, since you must really dwell in someone else's mind.
I advise you to read Virginia Woolf's speech called : professions for women. There's an interesting bit about aspiring female authors and why they sometimes restrain themselves while writing. I think that might be an explanation why females enjoy writing as a male : it gives them more freedom.

That's certainly possible.

Do you think publishers have forced some of the characters into a certain role?

My mother wrote five romances, and she wasn't particularly pleased with the "Formula" (not that anyone will admit to having one) that forced her strong female leads into more clingy genre friendly characters.

If so, maybe men can get away with more?

If not... is this an expression of art imitating life?

I'm not sure that's a complete question, because I think it's how the role is valued, not so much how many bad guys butt's get kicked by a girl. Another book comes to mind.

Lost Girls

It's another book written by a man, but He treated the female roles much more equitably than I had thought would before I read it. Even the non-combat types had something valuable to the team, and there was a Female "boss-woman" in the mix as well.

We came to believe that Sci-Fi writers tended to have the most equality.

I agree. Sci-Fi writers are more aware of gender equality for characters, though one could argue that has also to do with the fact that they create a world of their own, while someone who writes about the real world is more conscious of the prevalent role of men. (Not sure if I agree, but could be)
But yes, I think it's more complex than a girl kicking a guy's butt. The feminine way of acting just isn't appreciated, and when it is, it's transformed into a formula either too friendly or too sexy (an object).
It's the same question as : women stand up for themselves when they are more manly than men, or when they can just be women? And then again, what exactly does it mean, to be a women?
But I think what you said might be true. Man, in fiction, can get away with more, without being forced to follow a formula.

I agree with you, but about the best example of roles with equal importance, yet, one that allowed the Ladies to be ladies (not just really pretty men), is, of course, a sci-fi novel.

Dauntless

Now this is where it gets interesting for me. This book is as even handed as I've seen. The roles don't seem to matter if it's male or female, except when there is a romantic value to them, and even then their treachery, loyalty, power (not necessarily physical power) is equal.

It's written by Jack Campbell (I know that's a Pen-name). Jack Campbell was, at one time, in the US Navy as an officer. My experience in the Navy is that females who are successful, work very hard to look like men. (it gets more interesting, but also more conjecture on my part, but, another time).

That's mirrored in the book, but in his book, it looks a darned sight more appealing than it does in life, yet, it's arguably very similar, perhaps an optimists view of the lives of women in the military.

I guess, the next question is, "Do we see stronger, or rather more equal female roles in sci-fi because the artificial restrictions on the genre (Formula) allow more, or is it because the people who write and publish sci-fi have a different way of thinking?

If so, when/who decided on what value to assign to what role in a book?

Publishers would say that readers (buyers) have more to do with it than they do. Yet, I don't think there are a lot of subgroups of fiction where there aren't more women than men reading them? (I could be wrong.)

First, let me thank you for starting such a stimulating discussion and i must apologise for my english (not my native language - i am aware i kick the grammar around a bit)

I think authors, like artists in general, are more open minded. So, I don't think it's exclusive to sci-fi writers.
But maybe writers of other genres are more interested in showing the dark side of human nature, and sexism is included, while sci-fi writers focus on the plot.

I think publishers, like any other people who make money out of culture and culture related products, are more interested in money than substance (though there are exceptions). So if the public has grown to be satisfied with a certain kind of female characters, they feed that need, because it generates income. However, books should make you grow as a person, and that includes being in contact with a different reality (such as - a strong female lead).
No one has the power to assign value to a certain role in a book. Even the most famed authors don't dictate rules, because literature should be a free exercise. If publishers want to make it a formula, that isn't respecting the value of literature.
The book I gave as an example above isn't sci-fi at all, it's actually very faithful to reality - a harsh reality. I can now remember other books with strong female leads, and the story deals with sexism also, the Marion Zimmer Bradley saga : Mists of Avalon.

Billie wrote: "First, let me thank you for starting such a stimulating discussion and i must apologise for my english (not my native language - i am aware i kick the grammar around a bit)..."

Your English is fine, actually, very impressive that you are writing so well in English. Some people aren't sure if I'm speaking English or not, and it's supposed to be my only language. I think the British don't believe we've ever spoken English in the USA.

Billie wrote: "However, books should make you grow as a person, and that includes being in contact with a different reality (such as - a strong female lead).
No one has the power to assign value to a certain role in a book. Even the most famed authors don't dictate rules, because literature should be a free exercise. If publishers want to make it a formula, that isn't respecting the value of literature..."

Do you think the explosion of Independently Published E-books will change how women are depicted in books, make no difference, or, only some of a difference because some authors have different perception of female roles?

Billie wrote:"...The book I gave as an example above isn't sci-fi at all, it's actually very faithful to reality - a harsh reality. I can now remember other books with strong female leads, and the story deals with sexism also, the Marion Zimmer Bradley saga : Mists of Avalon..."

I'm familiar with that book by reputation, my mother liked it and we share books all the time. I haven't read it, but I have read other books by Marion Zimmer Bradley.

Do you find that the inclusion of romance (love) changes how easy/hard it is to keep a woman looking strong in a book?

I've read some that had strong female characters until they fell in love, then they instantly reverted to being a Damsel in distress.

Thank you :) Oh, we the portuguese look down on brazillians the same way, so I can understand the brits to some extend ahah

I think the explosion of independent e-books can go both ways. After all, every author that publishes his own work looks for some retribuition. I think some people might voluntarily change their work in order to achieve some success. On the other hand, the work of those who stay true to their vision might have a strong impact. I think thats too much speculation for me.

Ah oh, yes, of course. Love makes everybody vulnerable, but women are always supposed to show their vulnerability. So, if a couple falls in love, it's more usual to make the woman cry for dramatic effect than the man.

But you know what really makes the female/male roles stand out? When you read a lesbian or gay novel. There the characters aren't biologically labeled female or male, but through their actions there is always one who acts more "man-like" or "woman-like". For example, one embodies the damsel in distress. It's interesting to see how even a genre who could free itself from gender roles keeps them in order to construct characters.

Okay, now for the other side of the argument.

By and large, today, if you take out racially motivated crimes, and crimes that are purely for financial gain (robbery), women are victims of violent crimes far more often than men. Women and children have been targeted specifically because they were women and some cultures, who should know better, allow violence towards women and support it with law.

And, since we are, primarily a dual gender society, our roles in sex, love and romance are different. Surely they don't have to be, but the are.

Women are not as strong as men, so in physical confrontations with men, unless they are remarkable in some way or skill, most loose a physical confrontation. (surely not all)

So, is this grounds for how women have been depicted in books so far?

Characters tend to be two dimensional, rather than three dimensional as we are in life. Male and female tend to be identified by there traits that are most significant to the story.

How does this get fairly shown?

Or is it that they are fairly shown and that includes the inequity built in to our culture today?

And you are right about the lesbian and gay roles. About those, I would ask, is it fair to write those as you wish them to be? Or go the extra mile to write the romantic relationship as actual Gay and lesbian people might describe them? or, write them as you believe those who would be attracted to your book might see them?

(I edited this post to make more sense.)

Reg. sci-fi, I think the freedom in world-building sort of encourages writers in this genre to question status quo including existing gender inequality (e.g. James Tiptree Jr, Joanna Ross etc.) Personally I think a fiction writer writing about anyone not of his or her own gender, cultural background, social class, occupation or sexual orientation need to at least do some research to avoid simple mistakes.

Very true ^^ .