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J.G. Keely's Reviews > A Game of Thrones

A Game of Thrones by George R.R. Martin
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did not like it
bookshelves: abandoned, fantasy, reviewed

There are plenty of fantasy authors who claim to be doing something different with the genre. Ironically, they often write the most predictable books of all, as evidenced by Goodkind and Paolini. Though I'm not sure why they protest so much--predictability is hardly a death sentence in genre fantasy.

The archetypal story of a hero, a villain, a profound love, and a world to be saved never seems to get old--it's a great story when it's told well. At the best, it's exciting, exotic, and builds to a fulfilling climax. At the worst, it's just a bloodless rehash. Unfortunately, the worst are more common by far.

Perhaps it was this abundance of cliche romances that drove Martin to aim for something different. Unfortunately, you can't just choose to be different, any more than you can choose to be creative. Sure, Moorcock's original concept for Elric was to be the anti-Conan, but at some point, he had to push his limits and move beyond difference for difference's sake--and he did.

In similar gesture, Martin rejects the allegorical romance of epic fantasy, which basically means tearing out the guts of the genre: the wonder, the ideals, the heroism, and with them, the moral purpose. Fine, so he took out the rollicking fun and the social message--what did he replace them with?

Like the post-Moore comics of the nineties, fantasy has already borne witness to a backlash against the upright, moral hero--and then a backlash against the grim antihero who succeeded him. Hell, if all Martin wanted was grim and gritty antiheroes in an amoral world, he didn't have to reject the staples of fantasy, he could have gone to its roots: Howard, Leiber, and Anderson.

Like many authors aiming for realism, he forgets 'truth is stranger than fiction'. The real world is full of unbelievable events, coincidences, and odd characters. When authors remove these elements in an attempt to make their world seem real, they make their fiction duller than reality; after all, unexpected details are the heart of verisimilitude. When Chekhov and Peake eschewed the easy thrill of romance, they replaced it with the odd and absurd--moments strange enough to feel true. In comparison, Martin's world is dull and gray. Instead of innovating new, radical elements, he merely removes familiar staples--and any style defined by lack is going to end up feeling thin.

Yet, despite trying inject the book with history and realism, he does not reject the melodramatic characterization of his fantasy forefathers, as evidenced by his brooding bastard antihero protagonist (with pet albino wolf). Apparently to him, 'grim realism' is . This produces a conflicted tone: a soap opera cast lost in an existentialist film.

There's also lots of sex and misogyny, and --not that books should shy away from sex, or from any uncomfortable, unpleasant reality of life. The problem is when people who are not comfortable with their own sexuality start writing about it, which seems to plague every mainstream fantasy author. Their pen gets away from them, their own hangups start leaking into the scene, until it's not even about the characters anymore, it's just the author cybering about his favorite fetish--and if I cyber with a fat, bearded stranger, I expect to be paid for it.

I know a lot of fans probably get into it more than I do (like night elf hunters humping away in WOW), but reading Goodkind, Jordan, and Martin--it's like seeing a Playboy at your uncle's where all the pages are wrinkled. That's not to say there isn't serviceable pop fantasy sex out there--it's just written by women.

Though I didn't save any choice examples, I did this quote from a later book:
"... she wore faded sandsilk pants and woven grass sandals. Her small breasts moved freely beneath a painted Dothraki vest . . ."

Imagine the process: Martin sits, hands hovering over the keys, trying to get inside his character's head:

"Okay, I'm a woman. How do I see and feel the world differently? My cultural role is defined by childbirth. I can be bought and sold in marriage by my own--Oh, hey! I've got tits! Man, look at those things go. *whooshing mammary sound effects* Okay, time to write."

Where are the descriptions of variously-sized dongs swinging within the confines of absurdly-detailed clothing? There are a set of manboobs (which perhaps Martin has some personal experience with) but not until book five. Even then, it's not the dude being hyperaware of his own--they're just there to gross out a dwarf. Not really a balanced depiction.

If you're familiar with the show (and its parodies on South Park and SNL) this lack of dongs may surprise you. But as Martin himself explained, when asked why there's no gay sex in his books, despite having gay characters, 'they’re not the viewpoint characters'--as if somehow, the viewpoints he chooses to depict are beyond his control. Apparently, he plots as well as your average NaNoWriMo author: sorry none of my characters chose to be gay, nothing I can do about it.

And balance really is the problem here--if you only depict the dark, gritty stuff that you're into, that's not realism, it's just a fetish. If you depict the grimness of war by having every female character threatened with rape, but the same thing never happens to a male character, despite the fact that , then your 'gritty realism card' definitely gets revoked.

The books are notorious for the sudden, pointless deaths, which some suggest is another sign of realism--but, of course, nothing is pointless in fiction, because everything that shows up on the page is only there because the author put it there. Sure, in real life, people suddenly die before finishing their life's work (fantasy authors do it all the time), but there's a reason we don't tend to tell stories of people who die unexpectedly in the middle of things: they are boring and pointless. They build up for a while then eventually, lead nowhere.

Novelists often write in isolation, so it's easy to forget the rule to which playwrights adhere: your story is always a fiction. Any time you treat it as if it were real, you are working against yourself. The writing that feels the most natural is never effortless, it is carefully and painstakingly constructed to seem that way.

A staple of Creative Writing 101 is to 'listen to how people really talk', which is terrible advice. A transcript of any conversation will be so full of repetition, half-thoughts, and non-specific words ('stuff', 'thing') as to be incomprehensible--especially without the cues of tone and body language. Written communication has its own rules, so making dialogue feel like speech is a trick writers play. It's the same with sudden character deaths: treat them like a history, and your plot will become choppy and hard to follow.

Not that the deaths are truly unpredictable. Like in an action film, they are a plot convenience: kill off a villain, and you don't have to wrap up his arc. You don't have to defeat him psychologically--the finality of his death is the great equalizer. You skip the hard work of demonstrating that the hero was morally right, because he's the only option left.

Likewise, in Martin's book, death ties up loose threads--namely, plot threads. Often, this is the only ending we get to his plot arcs, which makes them rather predictable: any time a character is about to build up enough influence to make things better, or more stable, he will die. Any character who poses a threat to the continuing chaos which drives the action will first be built up, and then killed off.

I found to be a particularly telling example of how Martin thinks of character deaths:
"I killed (view spoiler) because everybody thinks he’s the hero ... sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing [someone] is going to rise up and avenge his [death] ... So immediately [killing (view spoiler)] became the next thing I had to do.

He's not talking about the characters' motivations, or the ideas they represent, or their role in the story--he isn't laying out a well-structured plot, he's just killing them off for pure shock value.

Yet the only reason we think these characters are important in the first place is because Martin treats them as central heroes, spending time and energy building them. Then it all ends up being a red herring, a cheap twist, the equivalent of a horror movie jump scare. It's like mystery novels in the 70's, after all the good plots had been done, so authors added ghosts or secret twins in the last chapter--it's only surprising because the author has obliterated the story structure.

All plots are made up of arcs that grow and change, building tension and purpose. Normally, when an arc ends, the author must use all his skill to deal with themes and answer questions, providing a satisfying conclusion to a promising idea that his readers watched grow. Or just kill off a character central to the conflict and bury the plot arc with him. Then you don't have to worry about closure, you can just hook your readers by focusing on the mess caused by the previous arc falling apart. Make the reader believe that things might get better, get them to believe in a character, then wave your arms in distraction, point and yell 'look at that terrible thing, over there!', and hope they become so caught up in worrying about the new problem that they forget the old one was never resolved.

Chaining false endings together creates perpetual tension that never requires solution--like in most soap operas--plus, the author never has to do the hard work of finishing what they started. If an author is lucky, they die before reaching the Final Conclusion the readership is clamoring for, and never have to meet the collective expectation which long years of deferral have built up. It's easy to idolize Kurt Cobain, because you never had to see him bald and old and crazy like David Lee Roth.

Unlucky authors live to write the Final Book, breaking the spell of unending tension that kept their readers enthralled. Since the plot isn't resolving into a tight, intertwined conclusion (in fact, it's probably spiraling out of control, with ever more characters and scenes), the author must wrap things up conveniently and suddenly, leaving fans confused and upset. Having thrown out the grand romance of fantasy, Martin cannot even end on the dazzling trick of the on which the great majority of fantasy books rely for a handy tacked-on climax (actually, he'll probably do it anyways, with dragons--the longer the series goes on, the more it starts to resemble the cliche monomyth that Martin was praised for eschewing in the first place).

The drawback is that even if a conclusion gets stuck on at the end, the story fundamentally leads nowhere--it winds back and forth without resolving psychological or tonal arcs. But then, doesn't that sound more like real life? Martin tore out the moralistic heart and magic of fantasy, and in doing so, rejected the notion of grandly realized conclusions. Perhaps we shouldn't compare him to works of romance, but to histories.

He asks us to believe in his intrigue, his grimness, and his amoral world of war, power, and death--not the false Europe of Arthur, Robin Hood, and Orlando, but the real Europe of plagues, political struggles, religious wars, witch hunts, and roving companies of soldiery forever ravaging the countryside. Unfortunately, he doesn't compare very well to them, either. His intrigue is not as interesting as Cicero's, Machiavelli's, Enguerrand de Coucy's--or even Sallust's, who was practically writing fiction, anyways. Some might suggest it unfair to compare a piece of fiction to a true history, but these are the same histories that lent Howard, Leiber, and Moorcock their touches of verisimilitude. Martin might have taken a lesson from them and drawn inspiration from further afield: even Tolkien had his Eddas. Despite being fictionalized and dramatized, Martin's take on The War of the Roses is far duller than the original.

More than anything, this book felt like a serial melodrama: the hardships of an ensemble cast who we are meant to watch over and sympathize with, being drawn in by emotional appeals (the hope that things will 'get better' in this dark place, 'tragic' deaths), even if these appeals conflict with the supposed realism, and in the end, there is no grander story to unify the whole. This 'grittiness' is just Martin replacing the standard fantasy theme of 'glory' with one of 'hardship', and despite flipping this switch, it's still just an emotional appeal. 'Heroes always win' is just as blandly predictable as 'heroes always lose'.

It's been suggested that I didn't read enough of Martin to judge him, but if the first four hundred pages aren't good, I don't expect the next thousand will be different. If you combine the three Del Rey collections of Conan The Barbarian stories, you get 1,263 pages (including introductions, end notes, and variant scripts). If you take Martin's first two books in this series, you get 1,504 pages. Already, less than a third of the way into the series, he's written more than Howard's entire Conan output, and all I can do is ask myself: why does he need that extra length?

A few authors use it to their advantage, but for most, it's just sprawling, undifferentiated bloat. Melodrama can be a great way to mint money, as evidenced by the endless 'variations on a theme' of soap operas, pro wrestling, and superhero comics. People get into it, but it's neither revolutionary nor realistic. You also hear the same things from the fans: that it's all carefully planned, all interconnected, all going somewhere. Apparently they didn't learn their lesson from the anticlimactic fizzling out of Twin Peaks, X-Files, Lost, and Battlestar. Then again, you wouldn't keep watching if you didn't think it was going somewhere.

Some say 'at least he isn't as bad as all the drivel that gets published in genre fantasy', but saying he's better than dreck is really not very high praise. Others have intimated that I must not like fantasy at all, pointing to my low-star reviews of Martin, Wolfe, Jordan, and Goodkind, but it is precisely because I am passionate about fantasy that I fall heavily on these authors.

A lover of fine wines winces the more at a corked bottle of vinegar, a ballet enthusiast's love of dance would not leave him breathless at a high school competition--and likewise, having learned to appreciate epics, histories, knightly ballads, fairy tales, and their modern offspring in fantasy, I find Martin woefully lacking. There's plenty of grim fantasy and intrigue out there, from its roots to the dozens of fantasy authors, both old and modern, whom I list in the link at the end of this review

There seems to be a sense that Martin's work is somehow revolutionary, that it represents a 'new direction' for fantasy, but all I see is a reversion. Sure, he's different than Jordan, Goodkind, and their ilk, who simply took the pseudo-medieval high-magic world from Tolkien and the blood-and-guts heroism from Howard. Martin, on the other hand, has more closely followed Tolkien's lead than any other modern high fantasy author--and I don't just mean in terms of .

Tolkien wanted to make his story real--not 'realistic', using the dramatic techniques of literature--but actually real, by trying to create all the detail of a pretend world behind the story. Over the span of the first twenty years, he released The Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, and other works, while in the twenty years after that, he became so obsessed with worldbuilding for its own sake that instead of writing stories, he (which his son has been trying to make a complete book from ever since).

It's the same thing Martin's trying to do: cover a bland story with a litany of details that don't contribute meaningfully to his characters, plot, or tone. So, if Martin is good because he is different, then it stands to reason that he's not very good, because he's not that different. He may seem different if all someone has read is Tolkien and the authors who ape his style, but that's just one small corner of a very expansive genre. Anyone who thinks Tolkien is the 'father of fantasy' doesn't know enough about the genre to judge what 'originality' means.

So, if Martin neither an homage nor an original, I'm not sure what's left. In his attempt to set himself apart, he tore out the joyful heart of fantasy, but failed replace it with anything. There is no revolutionary voice here, and there is nothing in Martin's book that has not been done better by other authors.

However, there is one thing Martin has done that no other author has been able to do: kill the longrunning High Fantasy series. According to some friends of mine in publishing (and some on-the-nose remarks by Caleb Carr in an NPR interview on his own foray into fantasy), Martin's inability to deliver a book on time, combined with his strained relationship with his publisher means that literary agents are no longer accepting manuscripts for high fantasy series--even from recognized authors. Apparently, Martin is so bad at plot structure that he actually pre-emptively ruined books by other authors. Perhaps it is true what they say about silver linings . . .

Though I declined to finish this book, I'll leave you with a caution compiled from various respectable friends of mine who did continue on:

"If you need some kind of closure, avoid this series. No arcs will ever be completed, nothing will ever really change. The tagline is 'Winter is Coming'--it's not. As the series goes on, there will be more and more characters and diverging plotlines to keep track of, many of them apparently completely unrelated to each other, even as it increasingly becomes just another , like every other fantasy series out there. If you enjoy a grim, excessively long soap opera with lots of deaths and constant unresolved tension, pick up the series--otherwise, maybe check out the show."

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Reading Progress

May 26, 2007 – Shelved
April 1, 2008 – Shelved as: fantasy
August 29, 2010 – Shelved as: reviewed
January 30, 2016 – Shelved as: abandoned

Comments Showing 401-450 of 1,883 (1883 new)


message 401: by Ian (new)

Ian I'm totally down with a greasy pork sandwich but I'd prefer it be served on a clean plate, perhaps a paper towel, or even wrapped in clean wax paper. A dirty ashtray? No. No, thank you.

I'm also totally down with the shot of Jameson, though we only ever have Bushmills in my house in the Irish Whiskey department. My wife was raised to be a Bushmills girl and there's no fighting that sort of passion.


message 402: by Ian (new)

Ian Speaking of eating and drinking and where you live, I was supposed to be in The City next week to visit my brother and his wife and--more importantly--my baby niece. She's the cutest, sweetest, prettiest, bestest baby niece in the whole world and I will tolerate no argument on that point. But I have come down with hand, foot, and mouth disease, which is highly contageous and very bad for babies.

You're thinking did Ian just say he has hand, foot, and mouth disease? Yes, that's what I said. And yes, I have it. And yes, it's every bit as gross as it sounds.


message 403: by mark (new) - rated it 5 stars

mark monday i have actually never heard of hand, foot, and mouth disease! almost sounds like an animal disease.

you capitalize the The in The City just like Herb Caen! rip.


message 404: by Harry (new)

Harry Kane I too start drooling and yawning when leafing through fantasy written after Wagner and Moorcock.
I have to say, though, that in 'real lit' there are plenty of stories without resolutions. The author just shows us stuff happening, sometimes brilliantly, introduces us to characters, we follow them, and that's it. Frequently real literature is literature about nothing happening. That's why some people tend to confuse it with soaps.


message 405: by Labib (new) - added it

Labib But what exactly are true literature? All forms of fictional writing, I think, falls under the definition of literature. Some have more literary qualities than others, that's about it.


J.G. Keely It's true that a story doesn't have to hinge on one large conclusion in order to be thoughtful or entertaining. The problem I was having here is that all the smaller events and plotlines keep pointing to the conclusion, so I didn't feel there were smaller, meaningful arcs that were interesting by themselves, since they were all being deferred. Even in someone like Chekhov, you at least have complete internal arcs for the characters, even if the plot meanders and has no standard conclusion.


message 407: by Harry (last edited May 23, 2012 07:03PM) (new)

Harry Kane Indeed. There's a tinier sub-set like the very early Huxley, or some Kingsley Amis ala One Fat Englishman or The Doctor is Sick by Burgess, where I feel immensly enriched upon finishing the book, but can't even begin to articulate any change or evolution in the main protagonists, who are more like vehicles to show lovingly crafted slices of reality and uneality and prose bursts.
Some people believe that Rothfuss will pull off his saga, others believe that Martin will pull off his. I wish both groups the best of luck. I myself am still immature enough to feel that any fantasy tome can be stripped into a snappy 60K adventure without major losses, LOR and Dune accepted. If anyone goes for more intricate stuff, then one better be Tolstoy because just one level lower, and one plummets to soap land.


J.G. Keely I agree that Tolkien's great length wasn't necessary for the story he told, though I can appreciate the amount of work and thought that went into creating his world--what is less than entertaining as a story may still be impressive as an exercise. Yet I haven't seen the same depth of knowledge informing the lengthy books of his followers.

I also have grave doubts about the ability of any author to end a particularly long and complex series if they haven't yet demonstrated that they can wrap up smaller arcs in a satisfying way. People keep telling me to 'wait for book five', but I've read a lot of amazing authors, and none of them needed five thousand-page books to get their point across.

In order for the conclusion to be good enough to retroactively make an otherwise scattered and cliche series worthwhile would require great skill indeed, and you'd think if Martin or Rothfuss had that kind of talent, it would be obvious from the first hundred pages.


message 409: by Outis (new)

Outis As an addendum to what I wrote earlier regarding the TV show, I found the second season lacking in precisely the way you're talking about: as far as I can see, it's going nowhere. It's a fun soap in an interesting setting but payoff seems distant at best and the smartest bits were essentially a post-scriptum about the first season.
In contrast, the first season had a main arc which I found meaningful and which paid off before the end of the season. I guess that's a minority opinion but I suspect your comments would be more applicable to the second book actually.

I appreciate long works with slow development, extensive world-building and misdirection. I like it when apparently unrelated pieces fall into place in a surprising but sensible way.
But I'm skeptical of anyone's ability to pull it off without having planned the complete big picture in advance. And the writer can't show you the plan! So I think it can be prudent to wait until the writer has demonstrated she knows what she's doing.

The comparison with Tolkien is a stretch already. I don't understand the comparison with Dune since the first book, while it was orginally serialized and is arguably incomplete, isn't that long (perhaps 10% longer than the first LotR book) and is self-sufficient, with a grand showdown at the end. I believe it could be trimmed down a bit but even as it is, it's a lot faster than most fantasy.
It also becomes apparent early on that there's been a lot of thought behind the setting and that the author is going to showcase big ideas. You get the idea that there's going to be more on offer than a soap or a heroic adventure.


message 410: by Harry (last edited May 23, 2012 07:15PM) (new)

Harry Kane Ha, incorrect use of word 'accepted' by me. I meant 'with the exception Dune and LOR'. And by Dune I meant the first Dune, of course. Although the second one is even more a textbook of how to cram superior storytelling into a tiny book.

I like the Game of Thrones TV show very much. It's superior to all other fantasy, shows I've seen. Keeping in mind the official spin: Martin worked as scriptwriter for a few decades, then got tired of the industry's restrictions and returned to literature via Song of..., I think it's not too far fetched to assume that a) Martin the TV script writer is very much present in the book writing process and b) he had a cunning plan of first making a splash with a book form of the script, thus forcing the suits in TV to for once film stuff exactly as he sees it, without mumbling about budgets and focus groups. In my opinion he thought of this as a visual fantasy soap all along, but had to go through the back door of Jordanesque scribbling.


message 411: by mark (new) - rated it 5 stars

mark monday but I've read a lot of amazing authors, and none of them needed five thousand-page books to get their point across.

Proust?


message 412: by Outis (new)

Outis I understood 'with the exception Dune and LOR' the first time.
But assuming LOR refers to Tolkien's famous trilogy, it's nothing like Dune with respect to the potential for editing.
Dune would have benefitted from a rewrite but I don't see how it could have been dramatically downsized.
In contrast, Tolkien's elegant work is famously slow and includes a lot of peripheral material. As it stands, it feels Tolkien rewrote a pre-modern corpus which generations of bards had expanded by tacking on their own material.
I don't know why people are so fond of drawing parallels Tolkien and Herbert. They both put a lot of work in the setting before starting to publish but that's about it.


message 413: by Harry (new)

Harry Kane Outis: In my case I was 10 when I read Dune, LOR, and the first two Hitchiker's Guides, and they have been linked in my psyche ever since. Very good point about the bard feel; now that I think of it there really is a hint of it all being a reconstructed myth cycle. Then again Herbert also attempt to carry something similar across with the "To begin your study of the life of Muad'Dib" type of introductions.

Mark: Proust! haha. Yup, that's exactly what I meant: if one is on the level of Proust, Mann, or Tolstoy, or Tolkien/Herbert, endless books are a gift to civilization. Then something happened in the 70's, I blame Arthur Hailey and Mario Puzo, I think it's after them that horror, thriller, fantasy, and space opera writers/publishers realized that bulking up equals ligitimacy equals sales. Never again would an internaitonal thriller be a snappy 50K Ian Fleming affair, nor a fantasy cycle installment a snappy Moorcock one. Unless the new developements in the industry,and I mean the digital and self-pub/small-pub such bring about the stable return of the short form.
John Skipp is supposed to helming a new horror/thriller imprint Ravenous Shadows, dedicated to publishing only super fast short novells. We'll see how that goes.


message 414: by Ken (new)

Ken Consaul Keely wrote: "I can imagine the process, as Martin sits, hands hovering over the keyboard, trying to get inside his character's head"

Well, at least one hand.


J.G. Keely "Please, go on destroying Martin."

Oh no, you guys go ahead. It's nice to have a break.

"Tolkien didn't do things just for the fuck of it . . ."

Agreed, though I didn't always feel his particularly idiomatic purposes were in accordance with the story he was telling.


message 416: by Outis (new)

Outis My "generations of bards" comment wasn't meant as a compliment but if you read it that way, I guess it means my characterization was fair.
I can't say I was able to discern Tolkien's intent in emulating organic pre-modern epics, other than to prove he could do a passable job... not a small feat, but one that got old for this modern reader long before the end of the trilogy. I'll have genuine pre-modern lit instead, thanks.

Destroying Martin? Why? Most of us are fans, if only of the "I'll wait for the movie" type.


message 417: by Jonathan (last edited May 24, 2012 10:02PM) (new) - added it

Jonathan Terrington Whether or not I agree on all his reviews I like that Keely does not resort to simplistic labelling. By which I mean he does not simply write a review and go 'good book everyone should like it enough said' or 'bad book no one should read it'. His opinion is not a simple passing over of the novel but rather he provides long and in-depth discussion of what he finds attractive or destructive in the works he peruses. All I feel led to state here is simply that one should always be cautious of simply applying terms to a work of fiction or to a person. There should be a sense of validation to those comments I believe.


J.G. Keely Cillian said: "I think he was picky as hell, Keely. I imagine Tolkien rewriting the same line 60 times."

Oh, certainly he was. I think he was very deliberate, I just don't necessarily feel that his deliberation always helped the story. As Outis said, I could understand that he was trying to recreate the form of the cultural epic, which was part story, part myth, and part encyclopedia.

However, I question whether this exercise served the story. An author could write a book , which is impressive as an experiment, but doesn't make the story or the characters any better. I appreciate the work and thought Tolkien put in, but I wish he had put less into trying to recreate a style and more into the writing, itself. As Outis said, I'd rather just read a real historical epic rather than an artificial attempt to create one.

Jonathan said: "His opinion is not a simple passing over of the novel but rather he provides long and in-depth discussion of what he finds attractive or destructive in the works he peruses."

Thanks for noticing, Jonathan. I always say I don't care what you think, I just want to know why you think it.


message 419: by Jonathan (new) - added it

Jonathan Terrington I always feel the same way which is probably why I noticed it. I hold differing beliefs to the people I hang around at times so I adopt the approach that I don't care what you think of me but I do want to understand your position.


J.G. Keely Yeah, and who knows, when you do talk it out, you might even learn something about yourself.


message 421: by mark (new) - rated it 5 stars

mark monday Cillian wrote: "PROUST? Good point, Monday, although I'm rather fond of h..."

i like how you refer to me by my last name only! very crisp & professional. reminds me of the military.

i'm ashamed to say that i've only dipped into Proust. although i've enjoyed what i've read. and although this makes me a philistine for saying it, i also enjoyed the movie version called Time Regained.

however i am still waiting for Keely to respond to my point. Keely! where are you? you are usually so good about responding to each troll person's comments.

also, Harry's point was very interesting (regarding what happened in the 70s). very interesting indeed. it makes a lot of sense.


message 422: by mark (new) - rated it 5 stars

mark monday ha! i come from a military family. my dad & his friends all referred to each other by their last names. it was... odd, in retrospect. and thanks! i chose "monday" because it was my day of birth.

didn't read Swan's Way, but delved here and there into other parts of In Search of Lost Time, after watching the awesome film. the writing was beautiful. twisty and strange and nuanced and ornate and beautiful.


message 423: by mark (new) - rated it 5 stars

mark monday i've been wanting to read that one ever since someone recommended it to me because of my name.

and now i'm reminded of this:

Mondays child is fair of face,
Tuesdays child is full of grace,
Wednesdays child is full of woe,
Thursdays child has far to go,
Fridays child is loving and giving,
Saturdays child works hard for his living,
And the child that is born on the Sabbath day
Is bonny and blithe, and good and gay.


poor Wednesday's child. what a life!


J.G. Keely Does that make you both lunatics?

Solomon Grundy,
Born on a Monday,
Christened on Tuesday,
Married on Wednesday,
Took ill on Thursday,
Grew worse on Friday,
Died on Saturday,
Buried on Sunday.
That was the end,
Of Solomon Grundy.


Mundy said: "i am still waiting for Keely to respond to my point."

Which point was that? I may have missed it in all the amusing back-and-forth.


message 425: by mark (new) - rated it 5 stars

mark monday ah, Solomon Grundy. i really relate to him!

anyway, the point was in msg 440. but in some ways that point was responded to by Harry in 442.


J.G. Keely Ah, I thought that merely a jest at Proust's long-windedness.

I have never read Proust. A Proust enthusiast I once knew told me that it was fruitless to try to comprehend him in translation--moreso even than other foreign authors. Hence I never sought him out.


message 427: by Karen (new) - rated it 4 stars

Karen Keely wrote: "It's true that a story doesn't have to hinge on one large conclusion in order to be thoughtful or entertaining. The problem I was having here is that all the smaller events and plotlines keep point..."

Which Chekhov? Please clarify, also please clarify which work...Just curious. if it's Anton, then I'm a little confused...


message 428: by Karen (last edited Jun 01, 2012 01:17PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Karen Harry wrote: "Outis: In my case I was 10 when I read Dune, LOR, and the first two Hitchiker's Guides, and they have been linked in my psyche ever since. Very good point about the bard feel; now that I think of i..."

Tolstoy is only as good as his translator; in his case most of them are terrible. So unless you are fortunate enough to read Russian I would NOT say that Tolstoy should be in the realms of being great at the 5000 plus page books as most of them are terrible. But that is just my opinion.


J.G. Keely "Which Chekhov?"

Yes, Anton Chekhov. In that comment I was thinking mainly of his short stories, which often do not have a standard 'plot', but still contain complete character portraits with arcs.


message 430: by Karen (new) - rated it 4 stars

Karen Keely wrote: ""Which Chekhov?"

Yes, Anton Chekhov. In that comment I was thinking mainly of his short stories, which often do not have a standard 'plot', but still contain complete character portraits with arcs."


Ah, ok, that solves my confusion as I thought you were talking about long winded authors still maintaining complete arcs and could not for the life of me figure out what chekhov work would be considered long winded since he mainly did short stories and plays.

Carry on


J.G. Keely Ah, sure, that makes sense. Glad I could clear things up a bit.


message 432: by Jamierkg (new)

Jamierkg Massive series, massive review, massive thread. I haven't read all of any, but what I will say is that, judgments of this book side I think what you have to say about fantasy writing and the genre generally strikes true here and elsewhere. Thanks for the thoughtful analysis.


message 433: by Hemant (new) - rated it 2 stars

Hemant Great analysis that matches my thoughts on the book so far. I really tried to read through it, but the tv show manages to do a much better job condensing the length of his novels. Are there any fantasy books you recommend?


J.G. Keely I'm glad to hear that my thoughts rang true for both of you. Thanks for the comments and kind words.

My suggestions for Fantasy reading may be found .


message 435: by Samuel (new) - rated it 5 stars

Samuel Bass At least Martin isn't as wordy as David Weber.


J.G. Keely I've heard that, yeah.


message 437: by Jean-marcel (new) - added it

Jean-marcel Vaguely, I toss around the notion in my head of reading this series. Everyone talks about it and while I like to think I am immune to hype, I find that I would sort of like to discuss it with some of these people, too. However I once tried to get into this first novel, A Game of Thrones, and while I wasn't put off I did give it up in favour of other reading matter, "temporarily", or so I told myself. Now I have this intense feeling that martin will never finish it, and I've decided that should he one day announce "The Song of ice and Fire has come to a close, been irrevocably concluded; now it's time for me to begin writing other things again like I did in the 70s and 80s, or maybe more Jack Vance fanfiction, because Jack Vance is a god", then, and only then, will I embark on this daunting and grim quest of his.


J.G. Keely I'm actually reading Vance right now, and I admit I'm having trouble connecting Martin's mirthless, long-winded, supergrim series with the vivid, ironic, clever, tongue-in-cheek world of Vance. Same with Wolfe: it's as if a writer told me their biggest influence was Alice in Wonderland, but then all they wrote were stories of a machinegun antihero mowing down an endless line of terrorists while complaining about the meaninglessness of life.


message 439: by Jean-marcel (new) - added it

Jean-marcel Keely wrote: "I'm actually reading Vance right now, and I admit I'm having trouble connecting Martin's mirthless, long-winded, supergrim series with the vivid, ironic, clever, tongue-in-cheek world of Vance."


In Wolfe's case, the inspiration mostly seems to lie solely with the setting. Wolfe's dialogue is not nearly as crackling with sharpness and wit, and try as he might, his descriptive power cannot match that of Vance in the first Dying Earth book, for example. But I suppose people often feel a greater affinity for Wolfe because of his admittedly deeper character studies and complex narratives. I enjoyed Shadow and Claw a good deal more than you did, I think, yet significantly haven't really felt the urge to continue with the series, and it's been so long now that I probably would have to re-read that first half in order to make sense of the second.

I know martin has also sited Vance as an inspiration, and my fanfiction comment mostly stems from the fact that he both edited and contributed a story to the Songs of the Dying Earth anthology, which I am now reading. It is full of contemporary, well-established fantasy authors paying tribute to Vance and his Dying Earth setting. They mostly try to ape Vance's distinctive voice, too, which is interesting, if not always entirely successful. Still, as far as fanfiction goes, it probably doesn't get much better than this.


J.G. Keely Ah, yes, I've heard of that collection.

I can understand that people appreciate the greater depth of character in Wolfe, but that kind of seems like missing the point, to me. In Vance, the characters are these odd, lilting creatures out of fairy tales--I was being very deliberate when I compared him to Alice in Wonderland--these are not stories about character depth, they are about presenting a hallucinogenic world of madmen and myth.

As for Wolfe, I found his characters pretty cliche, in terms of genre fiction--but a cliche character still has more depth than a scintillating, unhinged fey thing. I'll probably hit the next two books of Wolfe's series soon. I hope I'll see something in their to justify all the praise he's gotten, but after the opening books, a part of me doubts it.


message 441: by Outis (new)

Outis @Jean-Marcel "I find that I would sort of like to discuss it with some of these people": just watch the TV show!


message 442: by Gabriel (new) - added it

Gabriel I'm probably going to read the book anyway, but this was an excellent review. For a while I've been wanting to get back into fantasy, and, after listening to an interview with Martin, I thought this would be the perfect introduction to non-Tolkien epic fantasy, but I think I might instead go with some of the other fantasy writers you mentioned.

Have you read The Once and Future King?


message 443: by Jean-marcel (new) - added it

Jean-marcel Gabriel wrote: "I'm probably going to read the book anyway, but this was an excellent review. For a while I've been wanting to get back into fantasy, and, after listening to an interview with Martin, I thought thi..."

Jack Vance's Dying Earth rekindled my love for fantasy. You could always try taht!


message 444: by Outis (new)

Outis Gabriel, I don't think Game of Thrones is epic fantasy. It only has elements of epic fantasy.
There are non-Tolkien works which I might call epic fantasy even though it's a label that uniquely suits Tolkien.
In addition to Keely's list (I think you should pay particular attention to Anderson, Leiber, Vance and some of the classics), I recall being impressed by O. S. Card's fantasy.
Note that Keely's lists of classics is not comprehensive or even representative (I'm sure that wasn't the intent).

By the way Keely, the Late of Heaven isn't fantasy.


message 445: by mark (new) - rated it 5 stars

mark monday i would definitely consider AGOT to be epic fantasy. certainly not traditional epic fantasy, but epic fantasy nonetheless.


message 446: by Outis (last edited Jun 14, 2012 05:01PM) (new)

Outis I get that some people call it that. There's a little fantasy but what's epic about it really?
There's the Jon Snow story line which could be sort of like the beginning of an epic fantasy story. There's the story of the valiant King Rob, how he was wronged, how his Aryan bannermen came to his aid and how he prevailed in the field but it's underdevlopped and remarkably lacking in fantasy. Both are too cynical in tone and constitute a small fraction of AGOT's stories.
Other than these two storylines, I don't understand what you're talking about. The marvelous tale of the Hound and the Mountain? The wise half-knight and the righteous hillsmen? Varys the enchanter? The romance of Cersei and Jamie? Please...


message 447: by mark (last edited Jun 14, 2012 05:14PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

mark monday actually, all of that. but keep in mind that i don't consider the series to be traditional epic fantasy. what with GRRM's big thing about wanted to muck around in the muck and offer a gritty kind of deconstruction and then reconstruction of all the stand-bys of epic fantasy, while still remaining within the genre. all of the traditional epic fantasy tropes (everyone's favorite word nowadays) are in place. they are simply trasformed into something else (and some may say degraded)... but they are still there.

A Knight's Code of Chivalry. Defending the Realm & Barbarians at the Gate. Dragons & Elf-type Things & Witches & Wizards & Seers & Shapeshifters. A Plucky Orphan/Tomboy/Girl-Pretending-to-Be-a-Boy. A Band of Merry Men. Returns from the Dead. A Mad Queen. A Boy Becomes a Man when He Leaves His Family for the Mysterious Unknown. A Boy Becomes a King! Learning to Be an Assassin. A Girl Becomes a Princess. A Boy Sets Out to Save a Queen. A Noble Knight on an Endless Quest. Gods. Vikings. Battles with & without Magic. The Magic - IsIt Returning? etc et al.

i am nervous about talking about AGOT in less than critical terms on this thread, and feel like Keely will be coming back at any moment to get me! ~ looks fearfully over shoulder ~

i've said what i can and now i'm going to run & hide.


message 448: by Meggan (new) - rated it 5 stars

Meggan Mark, I think fans overestimate the trope deconstruction in Martin's work. Characters go off to magic, assassin, military, and politics "schools" ferchirstsake. Martin just excels at drilling into our lizard brains. We have to see WHUT HAPPENS NEXT.

But I strongly agree that it's epic fantasy.

The story is likely heading in the direction of... (view spoiler)


message 449: by Outis (last edited Jun 14, 2012 05:28PM) (new)

Outis I agree there are epic fantasy elements but wouldn't parallels with other genres be more striking?
Some of what you [Mark] mention is commonly found in other genres than epic fantasy. And I fail to see what some of what you mention has to do with epic fantasy. Has the epic fantasy become synonymous with medieval fantasy now?

Are you at all familiar with medieval non-epic fantasy such as the furry stories or with pre-modern histories?


message 450: by mark (last edited Jun 14, 2012 05:36PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

mark monday i think you both make great points actually.

Meggan wrote: "Martin just excels at drilling into our lizard brains. We have to see WHUT HAPPENS NEXT ..."

yes! that is definitely happening with my lizard brain.

Outis wrote: "I agree there are epic fantasy elements but wouldn't parallels with other genres be more striking? Some of what you [Mark] mention is commonly found in other genres than epic fantasy. And I fail to..."

yes, particularly in the first two books, where i found the series to be most similar to historical fiction.

Has the epic fantasy become synonymous with medieval fantasy now?

i would say No. but i would also say that medieval fantasy is one of the strongest strains within the epic fantasy epidemic.

Are you at all familiar with medieval non-epic fantasy such as the furry stories

not at all (but it sounds vaguely adorable). would you mind explaining what that is?


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