Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

Good observation about the directions! I never even noticed this when i read it myself, but will now be on the lookout for it... see, this is why a group read is so enriching. Each person notices different things, and when we bring it all together, it greatly enhances our experience of a book. :)

Annie, you can open the two halves of your map in separate windows of Paint that comes with your Windows software, and then you can select and copy, and then paste the other half into the first window (drag it to bring it to the side of the other half), and so combine it there.

Traveller wrote: In many ways, paradoxically, i don't see Lin and Isaac as that much different, even though he is the scientist and she is the artist... Regarding Lin calling Isaac "my monster", i thought that Mieville was being playful here...

I agree. In fact, I'm not sure he wants to be likable. Our scientists past and present break from the mold, want to do things their own way (yep, I thought of Einstein too) and if the world doesn't understand them, then it's the world that's confused. He likes his little loft - isn't a loft the stereotypical realm of an artist anyway? - away from the traditional scientists and would never call his equipment "stolen" even if it is. His creativity in the face of discovery is a tangible right that gives him the artist's mind, just the same as Lin stepping away from the simple creations of her sisters to do something dark and real.

I completely missed the "monster" comment until everybody started talking (so thanks!). But my first thought is not that Mieville was being playful because of Lin's body, nor because of Isaac's pride. I got the feeling that with the type of science they're doing, which is very nearly alchemy, and that he loves to study the Vodyanoi water creations and they have badgers that pass notes for goodness sake, and all manners of exotic creatures are introduced, and you know as a scientist he just loves to experiment with no limits, almost obsess over how creatures work (Lin even admits he did that with her), then maybe Lin is a little afraid of him, of what he can do with science, or afraid of science and what it can do. I mean, art can change the world, but science can change the world physically. There's something else I want to say, but I'm going to have to figure out how to do the hidden spoiler thing first.

On another previous question on the threads, of the hiding of their relationship and what it tells us of New Corbuzon's society ... I gave it only fleeting thoughts during my first read, but this time it feels more tangible. At first blush, it seems like a rendition of intolerant society maybe? But not so serious. I don't think he's trying to write an allegory or anything, just introduce us to a deeply troubled world and the characters who are surviving, finding their way, making the best of what talents they have.

On the other hand, this happens at all levels of society, even today among very tolerant and open groups. For instance, is it so simple to debate an issue - pick gay marriage, abortion, etc. - when you have family or bosses with opposite views and you want to stay in touch with them or stay employed? I think Mieville is challenging us to admit that it's not. We should be true to ourselves, yes, but are we willing to pay the price. Lin and Isaac are free-loving hippies with very strong inner beliefs (witnessed in the ride through Kinken and in Isaac's neighborhood) but maybe Mieville's asking us not to be so idealistic with what we would do. That given the same situation - open love with another species - and the reality, i.e., no work, no science, no art, would we decide any better than they did? I probably wouldn't.

Anyway, fun book. As someone else referenced, I'm enjoying the nuances that I missed first time through.

Allen wrote: "That given the same situation - open love with another species..."

I'm not making any judgements here but since so much is being written about it I'll throw in my two cents. This really is another species and not race we're talking about here. In the context of our own world, I don't think it would matter how open-minded one might claim to be or even how sentient that other species might in reality be, it probably would, as you say Allen, have some rather negative ramifications. I don't think we could fault anyone, under the circumstances, for wishing to remain in the closet.

Robert wrote: "This really is another species .... I don't think we could fault anyone, under the circumstances, for wishing to remain in the closet. "

Wishing to remain in the closet is one thing - I'm a firm believer that people should be permitted their own secrets - but Isaac is actually ashamed, at least some of the time, of his relationship with Lin. It's framed as a fear of the consequences, but I get the distinct impression that, on some level, he's disgusted with himself.

Thanks for the comments, guys, but, i think somewhere in there Lin does get irritated for Isaac pandering to bigots, i'll find the exact reference for you soon.

Thanks for your lovely long post Allen, so nice to see you participating!

And you too Robert, that we are managing to tempt you. ;)

I'd like to remind you people that all the threads are open for discussion now up to the end of part two of the book, - so up the the Section 6 thread. :)

I'm going to add a bunch more sections in a few hour's time, so feel free to go ahead and post in them as well as soon as i have added them. People still busy reading should be fine, because we're especially limiting the discussion to avoid spoilers, and they should only move on to those sections once they have read the chapters as indicated in the thread title.

However, if you want to post in this thread what you consider a spoiler, Allen, what you need to do, is use these little tags < and use them like I shall use these tags[ as an example;

[spoiler] Put the actual spoiler text here [/spoiler] . So, do what i did there, but just substitute < and > for [ and ]. You can preview your post to make sure that it worked properly. :)

Derek wrote: It's framed as a fear of the consequences, but I get the distinct impression that, on some level, he's disgusted with himself.

Interesting. I could agree with that. Given the ending, (view spoiler)[ with Isaac devoting the rest of his life to caring for the brain-damaged Lin, it makes sense. He could be making up for his initial disgust, and his earlier pandering to bigots. (hide spoiler)] Or, not to get too crude, is it almost like a fetish - fully accepting yourself, your wants and desires, but disgusted at the same time? I could be reading too much into it, but I love the challenge of thinking about it :)

Thanks for the spoiler tips Traveller! And now that you mention it, I think Lin's irritation showed during a party maybe at Salacus Fields or somewhere. I'll look for it, too.

Allen, i must confess to you guys about one thing. I have thought about how i would feel if i had to wake up in the morning, and the first thing i see are insectiod headbits and feeler-y antennae, and, well-- i think i might just jump out of bed in fright... :P

Allen wrote: "Or, not to get too crude, is it almost like a fetish - fully accepting yourself, your wants and desires, but disgusted at the same time? "

Yes, I think I'd call it a fetish.

Derek wrote: "Allen wrote: "Or, not to get too crude, is it almost like a fetish - fully accepting yourself, your wants and desires, but disgusted at the same time? "

Yes, I think I'd call it a fetish."

I agree. The word fetish really encompasses the complex feelings of attraction and repulsion we're seeing here, infused by a mist of natural urges and societal frameworks. It may be a "crude" word in terms of its connotations with sexual activities, but it's certainly not simple or basic when it comes to analysis.

I'm not really comfortable with the use of the term "fetish" for Isaac's relationship with Lin.

For me, someone would have a fetish if they had a disposition to a particular type of person or behaviour or body type, regardless of the individual's personality or individuality.

This might just be the romantic in me, but I feel that the relationship is personal to Lin, and has nothing to do with Lin having the general or abstract characteristics that Isaac's supposed fetish might demand.

Isaac's love for Lin is almost despite or notwithstanding the fact that she is a kephri.

It seems more likely to me that he loved her artistic temperament as one that might complement his more scientific one.

Traveller wrote: "Thanks for the comments, guys, but, i think somewhere in there Lin does get irritated for Isaac pandering to bigots, i'll find the exact reference for you soon."

Trav, that passage is on page 11:

"Isaac and Lin had been lovers nearly two years. They had always tried not to think too hard about the rules of their relationship, but the longer they were together the more this strategy of avoidance became impossible. Questions as yet unasked demanded attention. Innocent remarks and askance looks from others, a moment of contact too long in public-a note from a grocer-everything was a reminder that they were, in some contexts, living a secret. Everything was made fraught.

They had never said, We are lovers, so they had never had to say, We will not disclose our relationship to all, we will hide from some. But it had been clear for months and months that this was the case.

Lin had begun to hint, with snide and acid remarks, that Isaac's refusal to declare himself her lover was at best cowardly, at worst bigoted. This insensitivity annoyed him. He had, after all, made the nature of his relationship clear with his close friends, as Lin had with hers. And it was all far, far easier for her."

Note that a possible cause of this tension is a reluctance to define their relationship or to admit that they were "in love" rather than just "lovers".

Thanks, Ian. Yes, that was the "cowardly and bigoted" reference i had alluded to. :)

Ian wrote: "I'm not really comfortable with the use of the term "fetish" for Isaac's relationship with Lin.

For me, someone would have a fetish if they had a disposition to a particular type of person or beha..."

Yes, i think it would be worthwhile to note that Isaac's previous lovers had been human, not Kephri. ..and incidentally, one of them had been Bellis Coldwine, one of the main characters in The Scar.

Traveller wrote: "one of them had been Bellis Coldwine, one of the main characters in The Scar."

Aha! The plot thickens. Hey wait. Isn't that some kind of spoiler?

Robert wrote: "Traveller wrote: "one of them had been Bellis Coldwine, one of the main characters in The Scar."

Aha! The plot thickens. Hey wait. Isn't that some kind of spoiler?"

Nope. It's one of the first things you learn when you read The Scar. ;D The Scar is set in a different place and time, the connections to PSS are just casual.

I think Bellis is mentioned somewhere in PSS: let me have a look...

Traveller wrote: ...let me have a look..."

Dang, I gotta get a physical copy of this thing if I hope to be able to do that... I can just picture all these bookmarks and notes in the margin... I GOT NOTHIN'

Hmm, ok, it's only later on in PSS, in chapter 37. But not a spoiler, Bellis is only briefly mentioned in PSS- regarding Isaac's past.
But this strengthens my theory that The Scar may have at least been to some extent planned before the final draft of PSS had been completed.

Robert wrote: "Traveller wrote: ...let me have a look..."

Dang, I gotta get a physical copy of this thing if I hope to be able to do that... I can just picture all these bookmarks and notes in the margin... I GO..."

Oh, have you got it audiobook form? I have a spare e-book copy--I got both for the group-read, because searching is more easily done with e-copies.

Traveller wrote: "searching is more easily done with e-copies"

You sure have that right.

Ian wrote: "This might just be the romantic in me, but I feel that the relationship is personal to Lin, and has nothing to do with Lin having the general or abstract characteristics that Isaac's supposed fetish might demand.

Isaac's love for Lin is almost despite or notwithstanding the fact that she is a kephri."

Wholeheartedly agree. Isaac does not have a khepri fetish; I bet he would have been so much happier had Lin been human and had they been able to be open about their relationship. It seems that their relationship is the result of them being able to look past the conventions and the appearances and appreciate the other one for what/who they are.

Hmmm, if I keep thinking this way about Isaac, maybe on this reread I will be able to get past my visceral dislike of this man.

On a completely unrelated side note - having read quite a few CM's books since I first read PSS, I find that the vocabulary that bested me a few times during my initial read is no longer a threat or an obstacle ;)

Traveller wrote: "Ian wrote: "I'm not really comfortable with the use of the term "fetish" for Isaac's relationship with Lin.

For me, someone would have a fetish if they had a disposition to a particular type of pe..."

But a fetish isn't exclusive. That is, having a fetish doesn't exclude the ability to have deeply satisfying "normal" relationships. Just because Isaac is attracted to Lin (and I believe he does love her, but he also hates the idea of any "normal" - there's that word again - people knowing about it) doesn't mean he's incapable of a full relationship with a human.

In any case, I can't believe his relationship with Lin is healthy - and that may be the best argument for denying it as a fetish, as I don't really think fetish=unhealthy.

Derek wrote: "But a fetish isn't exclusive. That is, having a fetish doesn't exclude the ability to have deeply satisfying "normal" relationships. Just because Isaac is attracted to Lin (and I believe he does love her, but he also hates the ide..."

I agree You could easily replace the word 'fetish' with 'type' and avoid any seemingly negative connotation, but you would lose a lot of the implied complexity of the situation concerning Isaac and Lin's relationship.

Derek wrote: "In any case, I can't believe his relationship with Lin is healthy - and that may be the best argument for denying it as a fetish, as I don't really think fetish=unhealthy. .."

Have you got a reason for feeling this way, Derek? For believing that Lin and Isaac's relationship might not be healthy? Just curious.

Traveller wrote: "Have you got a reason for feeling this way, Derek?"

LOL. I tend to let emotion carry me when I'm reading and try not to analyze much, but in this case I do actually have a reason. I think it's (almost?) impossible to have a healthy relationship when you can't openly have a relationship - so I'd include any closeted relationship: gay, inter-racial or inter-species; whatever society considers taboo. Secrets are destructive (ask General Petraus).

Hmm...I see your point, but then, isn't it more the fault of society than the persons in the relationship?

Why should the random predilections or censures of society make the relationship itself unhealthy? I'm just exploring this train of thought along with you.

I like the fact that Isaac is very human and...fat (and possibly blokish?).

Is he a projection of an earlier CM? Was CM fat at the time and then got really ripped for our viewing pleasure?

Nataliya, it never entered my mind (or gut) to viscerally dislike Isaac.

Does anybody think the gender of the reader makes any difference to their relationship with Isaac as a character?

Did anybody else, male or female, dislike him?

BTW, re Lin, below the scarab head, Lin is a pretty healthy, fully-formed human female, possibly the reverse of a mermaid (whose bottom bits are fish).

Derek wrote: "In any case, I can't believe his relationship with Lin is healthy - and that may be the best argument for denying it as a fetish, as I don't really think fetish=unhealthy. "

Sorry if I've said this before (somewhere?), I think the underlying bond between Isaac and Lin is their "otherness" - they are described as "outcasts" and "outre".

They have found each other, outside the mainstream.

For me, that's healthy.

Nataliya wrote: "On a completely unrelated side note - having read quite a few CM's books since I first read PSS, I find that the vocabulary that bested me a few times during my initial read is no longer a threat or an obstacle ;) "

I found that all of the words I had to look up were really worth it, especially those with a scientific or philosophical bent.

Even words or expressions that you're familiar with or can work out, are worth looking up just to work out what meaning he was using, e.g., self-construction.

Derek wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Have you got a reason for feeling this way, Derek?"

LOL. I tend to let emotion carry me when I'm reading and try not to analyze much, but in this case I do actually have a reaso..."

I've seen too many gay and interracial relationships that survived for decades until accepted as "legal" to hold to that. Where there's a will, there's a way.

The transgression isn't enough in its own right to hold a relationship together. There has to be something else at the heart of it.

But, in this respect, I don't see gay or interracial relationships as any different to hetero-sexual or hetero-racial relationships.

This heart, this glue, is blind to differences.

Ian wrote: "Nataliya, it never entered my mind (or gut) to viscerally dislike Isaac.

Does anybody think the gender of the reader makes any difference to their relationship with Isaac as a character?"

I don't think my gender played a role in my dislike of Isaac (unless it did it very subtly, of course). I just found his personality quite irritating - he reminded me of an overgrown manchild (okay, maybe gender IS coming into play here). He is very self-centered and self-absorbed, oblivious to others, and frankly immature. My gut, having almost enough neurons to for a brain (hello, enteric nervous system!) just could not really stomach him. But I'm only a third into my reread - so my opinion of him can still easily change.

Ian wrote: "Even words or expressions that you're familiar with or can work out, are worth looking up just to work out what meaning he was using, e.g., self-construction. "

I've looked up unknown to me words so many times during my first read of this book - and now I'm basking in the realization that the meaning of them has actually stayed in my brain. China Miéville is single-handedly responsible for a significant chunk of my multisyllabic vocabulary.

I wonder whether my gender plays a role in my affection for and tolerance of Isaac.

Of course, I also have an affection for Lin. But that might be different.

Aubrey wrote: "I've seen too many gay and interracial relationships that survived for decades until accepted as "legal" to hold to that. Where there's a will, there's a way."

As have I. Despite being thoroughly heterosexual, most of my best friends for many years have been gay. I don't for a moment think that there's anything unhealthy about gay or inter-racial relationships. I simply think that keeping secrets poison relationships - even when the secret is shared between the partners rather than kept from the partner. Many people overcome the greatest of obstacles, but keeping your relationship secret from the rest of the world adds a strain that the rest of us have never had to deal with.

I don't quite know whether to agree with the point you're making. If a relationship is held together by a fetishisatioon of secrecy, then it's no wonder that it falls apart when the forbidden becomes permissible. However, the relationships of most of my gay friends are actually models of care and consideration and mutuality that heteros could learn from.

I can appreciate what you're talking about if you were referring to relationships before the legalisation of homosexuality. Before then, the relationship might have been held together by a sense of sanctuary, and maybe that might have disappeared when people came out of the closet.

However, I suspect that coming out of the closet just let people know that there were more potential partners to choose from than they had previously suspected.

Derek wrote: "Aubrey wrote: "I've seen too many gay and interracial relationships that survived for decades until accepted as "legal" to hold to that. Where there's a will, there's a way."

As have I. Despite be..."

Then perhaps it would be better to say that it's not the relationships that are unhealthy, but the society that puts strain on them. I apologize for nitpicking, but to me the choice of words says volumes about the person saying them. I've known people who've gotten offended over that kind of thing, and it doesn't seem worth it when you obviously have an open mind when it comes to this kind of thing.

Aubrey wrote: "Then perhaps it would be better to say that it's not the relationships that are unhealthy"

but I didn't say that, and I would never say that. I said it's the secrets that are destructive - making it "(almost?) impossible to have a healthy relationship". And there are thousands of gay activists who'd agree with me, which is why there are groups that believe that outing gays is good for everybody (I tend to agree that in the long run it probably is, but as I've also said above - people are entitled to their secrets, no matter how much it might damage them).

Of course it's the society that's to blame, but it's the secrets themselves that eat at you.

Derek wrote: "Aubrey wrote: "Then perhaps it would be better to say that it's not the relationships that are unhealthy"

but I didn't say that, and I would never say that. I said it's the secrets that are destru..."

I see that, and I apologize that I'm reacting so strongly to your use of the word 'unhealthy'. I just needed a bit of clarification as to the reason for its usage. And with that, I'm done.

Derek wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Have you got a reason for feeling this way, Derek?"

LOL. I tend to let emotion carry me when I'm reading and try not to analyze much, but in this case I do actually have a reaso..."

Ten days off and playing catch-up ... Interesting you say "secrets are destructive." Quite foreshadowing, especially since this is my second read of PSS. Gave me some extra food for thought on a lot of later plot points.

I also agree. Even for couples I've thought inseparable or perhaps indestructible, it's not what the secret is, but the simple fact something has been kept secret. Now on to the later chapter discussions.

Allen wrote: "I also agree. Even for couples I've thought inseparable or perhaps indestructible, it's not what the secret is, but the simple fact something has been kept secret. Now on to the later chapter discussions.
"

Heaven forbid my wife learn my secrets. Fortunately, I can't get her interested in GoodReads...

I loved the atmospheric, Dickensian, first-person opening.

Ian's question about the colour of the novel (comment 26) is interesting and something that resonated with me, though it hadn't quite bubbled up to consciousness, other than general shades of grey and brown. Something I'll look out for in subsequent chapters.

However, it's the relationship between Isaac and Lin that is the main focus of the first three chapters for me.

I'm more with Ian (comment 25) than Chance (comment 24) in seeing a "mutual sense of wonder" rather than something more manipulative.

Traveller's comment 61 echoed one of my thoughts, "i think it's rather hilarious that Mieville wangled it that such anatomically strange creatures can still actually copulate with humans", though I immediately wondered if I was even weirder for wondering that!

Derek (comment 105) thought Isaac is disgusted with himself for his relationship with Lin, at least some of the time, but then accepts the "fetish" label (comment 109). I'm not convinced of either, in part for the reasons Ian gives (comment 111), but also because Isaac seems to relish its secrecy:
"As he watched her [eat], Isaac felt the familiar trilling of emotion: disgust immediately stamped out, pride at the stamping out, guilty desire."
And then, immediately after the "My monster" quote that many have mentioned, but most importantly for this point:
"'I am a pervert' thought Isaac, 'and so is she'.".

Regarding how different Isaac and Lin are (e.g. comments 70 and 72): yes, he's a scientist and she's an artist and they have extremely different biology, but they're both involved in sculpture made with odd liquids!

On difference, I loved the passage (page 20 for me) where Lin is trying to explain what it's like to see the world with compound eyes:
"For you... in one corner a slum is collapsing, in another a new train with pistons shining, in another a gaudy painted lady... You must process as one picture. What chaos! Tells you nothing, contradicts itself, changes its story. For me each tiny part has integrity, each fractionally different from the next, until all variation is accounted for, incrementally, rationally."

Cecily wrote: "but also because Isaac seems to relish its secrecy:
"As he watched her [eat], Isaac felt the familiar trilling of emotion: disgust immediately stamped out, pride at the stamping out, guilty desire..."


Hmm, I hadn't thought of that possibility, Cecily, that part of the reason they do it secretly (and actually may enjoy doing it that way) is that sort of secret lover kind of attraction. (Okay, of course part of it is forbidden fruit, too.) I can't remember now if Lin actually resented the secrecy though, although of course she plays along with it.

I hope you enjoy this more than you enjoyed The Scar, Cecily!

Cecily wrote: "Regarding how different Isaac and Lin are (e.g. comments 70 and 72): yes, he's a scientist and she's an artist and they have extremely different biology, but they're both involved in sculpture made..."

LOL on the first para, and re the 2nd, yes, that's an interesting idea CM has there re the compound vision.

Traveller wrote: "...I can't remember now if Lin actually resented the secrecy..."

That same passage makes it clear she resents the secrecy, because she's more open about the relationship than he is.

So far I'm enjoying it much more than The Scar, thanks, and as I've read to the end of chapter 6, I think that's a reliable sign. :D

In retrospect, I think I found this the most atmospheric of all of CM's novels that I'd read so far.

Cecily wrote: "Regarding how different Isaac and Lin are (e.g. comments 70 and 72): yes, he's a scientist and she's an artist and they have extremely different biology, but they're both involved in sculpture made with odd liquids!"

It's a while now since I read this, but isn't that actually why Isaac befriended her in the first place? It's just something tickling a point in my brain somewhere in the right lower rear...

Traveller wrote: "In retrospect, I think I found this the most atmospheric of all of CM's novels that I'd read so far."

Though both Railsea and Embassytown make a point of describing the atmosphere :)

Traveller wrote: "In retrospect, I think I found this the most atmospheric of all of CM's novels that I'd read so far."

Indeed. As Derek says, Embassytown does that to some extent (I haven't read Railsea), but I'm blown away by that aspect so far: the opening, but also some of the other passages. There are going to be SO many quotes in my final review. In particular, he manages to make what should be repugnant, have a sort of beauty:
"Crematoria vented into the airborne ashes of wills burnt by jealous executors, which mixed with coaldust burnt to keep dying lovers warm. Thousands of sordid smoke-ghosts wrapped New Crobuzon in a stench that suffocated like guilt."

Cecily wrote: "...they're both involved in sculpture made with odd liquids!...
Derek wrote:...isn't that actually why Isaac befriended her in the first place?..."

If that's been mentioned, I didn't notice.