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Option #4 �� Difficult Books, a.k.a. “The Spine 2013��


In Brain Pain’s ongoing efforts to please all of the people all of the time, we’re going to have a 2013 version of “The Spine��, a selection of difficult and challenging books.

To prime the pump, we’ll begin with Virginia Woolf’s To the Lighthouse in January. Then in early June, when school is out and final exams are a hazy memory, we’ll swan-dive into Haruki Murakami’s 1Q84 for a leisurely summertime read. That leaves us with lots of space for adding other difficult books to The Spine 2013 �� perhaps 2 or 3 between Woolf and Murakami, plus another 2 or 3 after 1Q84.

Here are a few of the books suggested in our ongoing “Suggestions for The Spine 2013" thread. Take a look at these and let me know which ones appeal to you and/or make new suggestions.

Life, a User's Manual by Georges Perec

In Watermelon Sugar by Richard Brautigan

The Golden Notebook by Doris Lessing

I, the Supreme by Augusto Roa Bastos

At Swim-Two-Birds by Flann O'Brien

The Death of Virgil by Hermann Broch

Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco

Miss MacIntosh, My Darling by Marguerite Young

The Manuscript Found in Saragossa by Jan Potocki

The War of the End of the World by Mario Vargas Llosa

Please give your thumbs up for books you’d like to read and/or add more ideas.

Jim wrote: "To prime the pump, we’ll begin with Virginia Woolf’s To the Lighthouse in January. Then in early June, when school is out and final exams are a hazy memory, we’ll swan-dive into Haruki Murakami’s 1Q84 .
..."

That sounds wonderful, Jim--I'm in for both of those.

So far, i'd like to second Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco.

Foucault's Pendulum by Eco is a fabulous book! :) I'll third it, but I'd even go so far as to say any of his novels would be a definite read for me :)

The Golden Notebook sounds great and so does Life, A User's Manual.

I've always wanted to read some Broch. I have "The Sleepwalkers," but "The Death of Virgil," would be cool. Thumbs up on the Potocki.

How about a couple more suggestions, if you don't mind?

"You Bright and Risen Angels" by William T. Vollmann

"Giles Goat Boy" by John Barth

I'll nth Foucault's Pendulum, but wouldn't want to be a "swing vote," where pendulums are concerned. How about, also:

Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid

Critique of Pure Reason

Ada, or Ardor: A Family Chronicle

Stand on Zanzibar

P.S. I think that Lessing is dense and syntactically convoluted, but not at all deep, and that neither Brautigan nor Vargas Llosa is complicated in any way at all. I confess to a lack of familiarity with the others (Eco excluded).

From the suggestions already posted, I would love to read:
George Perec's Life, a User's Manual-it's been on my list for at least 10 years & I already own it

I've already read most of the others except Critique (please no) And Ada (please yes).
Ada, or Ardor: A Family Chronicle

What about 2666?

Or a collection of Kafka's short stories?

Also, Bruno Schulz work is short but not quick. It may be more imagistic though then "deep."

Schrödinger's Cat Trilogy? Don't know much about it other than I want to read it.

Definite John Barth-I just bought Giles Goat-Boy
And I love Wittgenstein but perhaps more as poetry.

All I can think of right now.

Except maybe James's The Golden Bowl or, my personal favorite (20 years ago, anyway) The Wings of the Dove? Perhaps not dense enough but interesting vis a vis society and relationship I'm afraid I'll be labelled as one of "those" women but our reading has been almost entirely male. We've got Woolf but is she really it? What about Dorothy Richardson or Lydia Davis? I love the men but I think there is a difference (ok, shoot me) in the 2 perspectives & although women (& I may be counting James here :#) may come at ideas differently it doesn't mean they're necessarily "simple"-and I would include Lessing in that (not that I want to read her again-she was, I think, more an "important to read at that time" author, at least she was for me).

Is anyone willing to discuss this with me or do you all think I'm just being paranoid?

I'd like to tackle Miss MacIntosh, My Darling
But I enjoy Eco as well!

Ellie wrote: "From the suggestions already posted, I would love to read:
George Perec's Life, a User's Manual-it's been on my list for at least 10 years & I already own it

I've already read most of the others..."

I wouldn't mind re-reading Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, though not Wittgenstein's senescent recantation, Philosophical Investigations.

Agree with you about inadequate representation of female writers and/or Weltanschauung. I actually think Julian May, stigmatized for writing SF, has a phenomenal command of English, and is entertaining and complex, as well as startlingly erudite.

Miss MacIntosh has also been on my list for years (and another one I own). I've read the Broch (and loved it) & just read 1Q84 this year-don't suppose we could read another of his?

I love Tractatus (agree about Investigations). I actually haven't read May, so I may have to remedy that.

I also think Richardson is brilliant, by the way, but stream of consciousness ultimately annoys me. Might be open to Lydia Davis, but not very familiar.

Ellie wrote: "just read 1Q84 this year-don't suppose we could read another of his?"

Wind-Up Bird Chronicle will be at the end of the Magic Realism project next November-ish.

Mark wrote: "Ellie wrote: "From the suggestions already posted, I would love to read:
George Perec's Life, a User's Manual-it's been on my list for at least 10 years & I already own it

I've already read most..."

What do you recommend by Julian May? I'm intrigued....

Jim wrote: "Ellie wrote: "just read 1Q84 this year-don't suppose we could read another of his?"

Wind-Up Bird Chronicle will be at the end of the Magic Realism project next November-ish."

Oh good-I've been thinking of re-reading Wind-Up, my son can't stop talking about it!

Ellie wrote: "Is anyone willing to discuss this with me or do you all think I'm just being paranoid? .."

Just because we're all out to get you is no reason to feel paranoid...

Yes, we are far far away from gender-equity. But To The Lighthouse is pretty great so I definitely want to keep it in. There are many more books in the Suggestions for Spine 2012 thread. I just pulled out 10 that seemed like good reads. Please suggest away!! But remember, the list we're trying to generate is for the members who want more Brain Pain reads - like Marguerite Young, for example.


Also, I wanted to save this for a holiday season surprise, but I'll tell you now since Mark suggested Ada or Ardor. The Faust project will be relatively short and should wrap up by mid-year. I'm working on a plan with another member to create a 'Spotlight on Nabokov' read to follow the Faust. A few novels, his auto-bio, and some of his criticism.

Chance wrote: "Mark wrote: "Ellie wrote: "From the suggestions already posted, I would love to read:
George Perec's Life, a User's Manual-it's been on my list for at least 10 years & I already own it
,
I've alre...What do you recommend by Julian May?...

Saga of Pliocene Exile. First volume is: The Many-Coloured Land.

Michael wrote: "I've always wanted to read some Broch. I have "The Sleepwalkers," but "The Death of Virgil," would be cool. Thumbs up on the Potocki.

How about a couple more suggestions, if you don't mind?

"..."

Vollman looks pretty intense. I think we should definitely consider the Barth as well.

Mark wrote: "I'll nth Foucault's Pendulum, but wouldn't want to be a "swing vote," where pendulums are concerned. How about, also:

Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid

Critique of Pure Reason

Ada, o..."

I'm not opposed to reading philosophy books, but I would be reluctant to lead the discussions because I don't have much of a foundation in the subject matter. If we can reach some general consensus on Hofstadter, Kant, Wittgenstein, or other, I'd be happy to host the read here if someone else leads the discussion.

The Zanzibar book sounds pretty intriguing BTW.

Jim wrote: "Mark wrote: "I'll nth Foucault's Pendulum, but wouldn't want to be a "swing vote," where pendulums are concerned. How about, also:

Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid

Critique of Pure R..."

I'm a retired AI prof. with an interest in epistemology, and I'd have no problem leading that discussion, if you're willing to host.

I think you'd enjoy SoZ, and wouldn't have cause to feel Sozé'd. :)

Mark wrote: "I'm a retired AI prof. with an interest in epistemology, and I'd have no problem leading that discussion, if you're willing to host...."

Great! Let's see where this discussion goes and we'll put something on the schedule.

I'll second Godel, Esher and Bach. I've wanted to read that for years. I can't say that I share Chance's admiration for Julian May. I read the Many-Colored Land and two or three books in the Saga of Pleistocene Exile when they came out. I never finished the Saga. I don't remember May's writing as anything special, and I read it during a period when I was often finding myself in the position of defending Science Fiction as Literature. The female author I love from the magical realism side of things is Sarah Addison Allen. Her first book, Garden Spells is probably still my favorite, though her most recent, The Peach Keeper, is also very good.

Casceil wrote: "I'll second Godel, Esher and Bach. I've wanted to read that for years. I can't say that I share Chance's admiration for Julian May. I read the Many-Colored Land and two or three books in the Saga..."

De gustibus, and all that, but I have to exculpate Chance. I was the one who mentioned May, casting about for a female writer whose linguistic skill I recalled having admired.

Ellie wrote: "From the suggestions already posted, I would love to read:
George Perec's Life, a User's Manual-it's been on my list for at least 10 years & I already own it

I've already read most of the others..."

Godel, Escher and Bach would also be great!

If you want read The Schrodinger's Cat Trilogy, we might try The Illuminatus! Trilogy as well -- by the same author, Robert Anton Wilson, and another fantastic conspiracy read :) Would go hand in hand with Eco's Pendulum ;)

Kari wrote: "we might try The Illuminatus! Trilogy as well -- by the same author, Robert Anton Wilson, and another fantastic conspiracy read :) Would go hand in hand with Eco's Pendulum ;) ..."

Sounds like a nice pairing. Maybe Eco first? Or vice versa?

Casceil wrote: "I'll second Godel, Esher and Bach. I've wanted to read that for years. I can't say that I share Chance's admiration for Julian May. I read the Many-Colored Land and two or three books in the Saga..."

I haven't read Julina May yet, just looking for well written and interesting sci/fi. Always willing to try new authors.

Jim wrote: "Kari wrote: "we might try The Illuminatus! Trilogy as well -- by the same author, Robert Anton Wilson, and another fantastic conspiracy read :) Would go hand in hand with Eco's Pendulum ;) ..."

So..."

I like the idea of Illuminatus! and Eco. Both have been lying around my apartment for a long time.

Kari wrote: "Ellie wrote: "From the suggestions already posted, I would love to read:
George Perec's Life, a User's Manual-it's been on my list for at least 10 years & I already own it

I've already read most..."

Illuminatus! and Eco = a recipe for curing paranoia, with a healthy dose of brain pain on the side.

I'd be interested in O'Brien, Eco, and Llosa, personally. As well as Nobokov's Ada and GEB:aEGB.

Life, a User's Manual falls under the category of books I read too long ago that I could contribute much to the discussion, but recently enough I don't care for a reread, but I think it is an excellent choice for Brain Pain. Wasn't there talk of an Oulipo themed read or something at one time?

I would like to read 'The Manuscript Found in Saragossa' (I quite enjoyed the movie :-) and 'I, The Supreme'. '1Q84' I've read, and discussed on a couple groups here, but a BP discussion would be fun. I agree with Mark that Brautigan isn't complicated at all, and I also like the suggestions of 'Ada' and Bruno Schulz's stories.

This may be a suggestion for 2014, but I wouldn't mind perusing the surrealists at some point, especially The Hearing Trumpet, The Arabian Nightmare, or Maldoror.

I love Maldoror, tho' I have no idea how to talk about it. It's always seemed to me to be a linguistically-induced drug state. It would be fascinating to try to articulate it.

Ellie wrote: "I love Maldoror, tho' I have no idea how to talk about it. It's always seemed to me to be a linguistically-induced drug state. It would be fascinating to try to articulate it."

" Mais, je ne me plaindrai pas. J’ai reçu la vie comme une blessure, et j’ai défendu au suicide de guérir la cicatrice. Je veux que le Créateur en contemple, à chaque heure de son éternité, la crevasse béante. C’est le châtiment que je lui inflige."

I don't like it, per se, but it's impossible to deny that it's utterly devastating. It seems as though it's what Job would have said, had he been articulate and willing to express the immitigable outrage that passing through this "charnier immonde" seems to engender. Couldn't find the quote in English, and Google translate would have botched it, but basically, Lautréamont's reaction to the problem of theodicy is to say, "I want the Creator to contemplate, for each hour of eternity, the gaping abyss (of the wound of life). That's the punishment I inflict on him." That's one heck of a substitute for a "clamo ad te," and not one I'd remotely endorse, but it's impossible not to be affected by the raw emotion throughout.

Every single on of these books are of interest. This Group introduces me to books I would otherwise not have found!

I've always wanted to read Foucault's Pendulum.

I've already read The War of the End of the World; I loved it; and was amazed.

To the Lighthouse and Life, a User's Manual are already on my "tbr" list along with 1Q84.

Based upon this, and my superficial familiarity with a few others, I can only assume that the half I am completely in the dark about must be superb.

Mark me down as enthusiastic; even if I don't vote.

From the above list, I would be especially interested in the Perec, Lessing, Young and Potocki.

Ellie wrote: "I'm afraid I'll be labelled as one of "those" women but our reading has been almost entirely male. We've got Woolf but is she really it? What about Dorothy Richardson or Lydia Davis? I love the men but I think there is a difference (ok, shoot me) in the 2 perspectives & although women (& I may be counting James here :#) may come at ideas differently it doesn't mean they're necessarily "simple"-and I would include Lessing in that (not that I want to read her again-she was, I think, more an "important to read at that time" author, at least she was for me)."

I feel similarly conflicted thinking about Brain Pain affirmative action. But literary complexity can take many forms, and I appreciate reading books sourced from all kinds of perspectives and backgrounds. Plus, I can’t lie: right now I am looking for some books to temper that old chestnut of Man = Intellect/Civilization/Goodness vs. Woman = Emotions/Sensuality/Nature/ General Weird, Scary Otherness (Joyce, I love Ulysses but, ??). Before I hurl.

A while back, I asked the Bookish folks to recommend books by women who write the sort of complex, brain-painful books that can really benefit from the multiple view points of a group read. I got a bunch of intriguing suggestions, and here are a few that might fit this group:

The Back Room by Carmen Martín Gaite
Nightwood by Djuna Barnes
Pilgrimage: Volume 1 by Dorothy M. Richardson (Stream-of-consciousness before Joyce and Woolf)

I don't know much about these authors, so would be glad to hear the opinions of anyone who does.

Another possibility that I read and loved, loved way back:

The Man Who Loved Children by Christina Stead

Another possibility along the lines Rachel is suggesting would be Palimpsest by Catherynne M. Valente.

I love Nightwood but I don't think of it as very dense.

Ellie wrote: "I love Nightwood but I don't think of it as very dense."

Agreed. Barnes is creative, but not complicated. She is someone of whom Avril Lavigne would have no cause to complain. :)

Mark wrote: "Ellie wrote: "I love Nightwood but I don't think of it as very dense."

Agreed. Barnes is creative, but not complicated. She is someone of whom Avril Lavigne would have no cause to complain. :)"

Well poop, then. Sounded like it had the potential for some Woolfian Modernist prose poetry. '30s sk8ter grrls were not what I had in mind.

Rachel wrote: "From the above list, I would be especially interested in the Perec, Lessing, Young and Potocki.

Ellie wrote: "I'm afraid I'll be labelled as one of "those" women but our reading has been almost en..."

I would add Karen Tei Yamashita to that list. Her early novels have a quality of magical realism to them, her most recent novel, I, Hotel, is something else entirely and would generate interesting discussion in this group.


Karen Tei Yamashita

I Hotel

Casceil wrote: "Another possibility along the lines Rachel is suggesting would be Palimpsest by Catherynne M. Valente."

I've read Silently and Very Fast (which was how I read it, but Valente doesn't mind complexity). Warning, however: you have to endure the first line of the novel...
"Inanna was called Queen of Heaven and Earth, Queen of Having a Body, Queen of Sex and Eating, Queen of Being Human, and she went into the underworld in order to represent the inevitability of organic death."
Sumerian goddesses. Meh. I actually do think Valente is erudite and philosophically interesting, though. And she crafts sentences, Inanna notwithstanding, superlatively well.

Rachel wrote: "I feel similarly conflicted thinking about Brain Pain affirmative action. But literary complexity can take many forms, and I appreciate reading books sourced from all kinds of perspectives and backgrounds. Plus, I can’t lie: right now I am looking for some books to temper that old chestnut of Man = Intellect/Civilization/Goodness vs. Woman = Emotions/Sensuality/Nature/ General Weird, Scary Otherness (Joyce, I love Ulysses but, ??). Before I hurl..."

I feel you!

Coincidentally, I was contemplating all of this last night, in particular Ellie's comment "I love the men but I think there is a difference (ok, shoot me) in the 2 perspectives & although women (& I may be counting James here :#) may come at ideas differently it doesn't mean they're necessarily "simple"

2012 was all about formal and technical complexity. 2013, however, brings us over to the thematic side of art - the blending of magic and realism, and the complex (faustian) bargains we strike with ourselves when choosing how to move through this life. 2013 is more about the mind than the muscles, so I think we can stop limiting our reading choices to things that are only formally "dense, complex, challenging" and so on. That opens things up a bit...

Here is where I am after my late night contemplations:

Start with To The Lighthouse, which I really want to re-read.

Then go to Pilgrimage Vol. 1, Pointed Roofs. This will introduce us to Richardson's series and give us a chance to compare and contrast Richardson and Woolf's use of s-o-c.

Then on to the 1200-page road trip of Marguerite Young. Dalkey Archive has a 2-volume version in print so we can actually read this without breaking our wrists. I'm very curious about this one.

Though not in my thoughts last night, serendipity and Rachel's reminder presents us with a short read in the form of Nightwood, which, if I'm understanding the description, could be a good set-up for 1Q84 in June.

Then for post-1Q84, I'm thinking Perec, Eco, and Barth. This will give us 8 complex novels for The Spine 2013 which I'm pretty sure will give us plenty to think about thematically.

I would like to work Hofstadter and similar books into the schedule for the year, but we can do that separately from this list of 8 fiction books.

So, I've penciled this in for now. Take a look at the descriptions for all 8 books and share your thoughts.

There is always potential to setup side reads for anything in this thread that really needs reading.

Jenny wrote: "I would add Karen Tei Yamashita to that list..."


Every week while going for lunch in SF's Chinatown, I walked past the empty hole where the I Hotel used to sit. The property owners were waiting for the last former I Hotel residents to die so they wouldn't have to honor their agreement. Capitalist running dog lackeys!!!!

Sounds like a good book but kind of non-fictiony. Which of her other books would you recommend?

Jim wrote: "Rachel wrote: "I feel similarly conflicted thinking about Brain Pain affirmative action. But literary complexity can take many forms, and I appreciate reading books sourced from all kinds of perspe..."

Jim-I appreciate your responsiveness & the awesome thought processes behind your choice. And these are books that I have long wanted to read (except, of course, the Woolf-I've read it many times & never get tired of it-looking forward to reading it again).

Thanks. I look forward to this reading year.

Ellie wrote: "Jim-I appreciate your responsiveness & the awesome thought processes behind your choice. And these are books that I have long wanted to read (except, of course, the Woolf-I've read it many times & never get tired of it-looking forward to reading it again).

Thanks. I look forward to this reading year..."

Thanks Ellie!

In general, I don't like to think about art in demographic terms because too often you end up with lines drawn around a set of artists based on who they are instead of what they produce. The idea that sticks with me is from James Baldwin, who I'm severely paraphrasing, "I want to be a good writer, not a good black writer."

However, the more I think about your deceptively "simple" statement - "I love the men but I think there is a difference (ok, shoot me) in the 2 perspectives & although women ... may come at ideas differently it doesn't mean they're necessarily "simple" " - the bigger it grows in my thoughts. And so, I'm leaning heavily towards front-loading this part of our reading with these 4 women writers so we can immerse ourselves in their perspectives. (FWIW, I would put Woolf up against any writer of any demographic and refer to her simply as Baldwin might say, "a great writer".)

I agree & that was my hesitation in speaking up. But I still feel about the "different way of coming at things" & I appreciate your thoughtful consideration of the matter.

I also agree that Woolf fits in the most easily with the writers we've been reading.

Jim wrote: "Jenny wrote: "I would add Karen Tei Yamashita to that list..."


Every week while going for lunch in SF's Chinatown, I walked past the empty hole where the I Hotel used to sit. The property owners ..."

I wouldn't call I, Hotel non-fiction or even non-fiction like. It contains multiple characters and multiple stories told through different voices and different narrative styles.

Through the Arc of the Rainforest is her first novel, it is a form of magical realism. Tropic of Orange is somewhere in between the magical realism of her first novel and the narrative structure of I, Hotel.

Another suggestion is Three Trapped Tigers by Guillermo Cabrera Infante which is an inventive account of Cuba before Castro. I think people either love or hate this book and its translations which has been compared to James Joyce and Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

Through the Arc of the Rainforest

Tropic of Orange

Three Trapped Tigers

My goodness! I feel so unread after looking at this list. So many books. I really want to read Foucault's Pendulum, Miss Macintosh My Darling, the Llosa, and the Potocki, which I'm happy made the list. To The Lighthouse and Life A User's Manual as well. Oh and yes on The Golden Notebook.

Yes on more women in 2013. I would also be down with Angela Carter. Maybe we can throw in Marilynne Robinson with Housekeeping? I read that in Geoffrey Greene's pomo lit class back at SF State (and is probably why I'm in Brain Pain). Oh and maybe Mumbo Jumbo, since Pynchon even name-drops Ishmael Reed.

Maldoror I hear is also making the rounds as a suggestion. I need to read again just to see it from the perspective of Job, as suggested above, which I always thought was a great book in its own right.

Oh! I would be up for some Nabokov. I adore Pale Fire but would be down with Ada or Ardor.

Although when I'm thinking about it all, it seems like 2013 is going to be impossibly filled with books. Oh how I do want to get back to The Recognitions.

Jim wrote: "Rachel wrote: "I feel similarly conflicted thinking about Brain Pain affirmative action. But literary complexity can take many forms, and I appreciate reading books sourced from all kinds of perspe..."

I'm not sure about the "affirmative action" *label*, but whatever you call it, I think it's entirely warranted, so I endorse the plan, grosso modo. I'd really only take exception to Nightwood, which I remember with extreme distaste... but hey, I've read it (even if 43 years ago), so I needn't do it again.

I'm a bit sorry we appear to be shunting aside the philosophical and metamathematical tomes, but perhaps that separate discussion can still be set up, and I'm still willing to lead (faute de mieux).

Jenny wrote: "I wouldn't call I, Hotel non-fiction or even non-fiction like. It contains multiple characters and multiple stories told through different voices and different narrative styles..."

OK, I'll look for a better description.

I was thinking about maybe finding a place for her work in the Magic Realism read for this year.

Matthew wrote: "Although when I'm thinking about it all, it seems like 2013 is going to be impossibly filled with books. Oh how I do want to get back to The Recognitions..."

Maybe you can fake a 3-week flu so you can stay at home and catch up on your reading!!

The Nabokov project I mentioned above would include both of those books, plus some more.