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Perdido Str Station Discussion
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SECTION 7: Chapters 18-19
Traveller wrote: "In this section,with Chapter 18, Mieville's attention seems to wander a bit for me. Or maybe i just found my own attention wandering, as Chapter 18 seems to start with a bit of a ramble, that migh..."I'm also wondering, at this point, if Issac is a legitimate scientific genius in the mold of pre-famous Einstein or is he an eccentric wacko play-acting like a scientist. There are enough clues to support either theory, given Issac himself would be an unreliable narrator, and other non-science folks would not have the background to judge. His co-renters keep their distance -- Issac could be the looney upstairs. In view of that, the contraptions he builds could be junk, and his research could be delusional, his genius --a myth.
Interesting musings, Chance. Of course, either affirming or rejecting what you said, would be a spoiler. ;)Though i do think things become a bit clearer about this a bit later on. We'll talk then.
Let me post another section, before i fall behind.
Traveller wrote: "Interesting musings, Chance. Of course, either affirming or rejecting what you said, would be a spoiler. ;)Though i do think things become a bit clearer about this a bit later on. We'll talk then..."
I expect Isaac is legit, but I like the possibilities that China leaves open--makes for an intriguing read if I can see multiple possibilities....
My mouth is zipped... ;)So... the Kephri are pretty weird, eh?
Traveller wrote: "My mouth is zipped... ;)So... the Kephri are pretty weird, eh?"
Makes you wonder about the evolution. Freak accident due to environmental factors? Mad scientist? Some sort of ritualistic polymerization of functional forms performed by species working together against extinction? And I don't suppose Mieville's going to be forthcoming about it. Sigh.
Aubrey wrote: "Traveller wrote: "My mouth is zipped... ;)So... the Kephri are pretty weird, eh?"
Makes you wonder about the evolution. Freak accident due to environmental factors? Mad scientist? Some sort of r..."
I think they are just what they are, formed by Darwinian evolution or whatever natural laws govern species formation, of whatever world and universe CM is describing. ie their formation made sense according to the nautural laws prevailing at that time.
If you look at other species in The Scar, the same world, there are other weird species such as mosquito-people, cactus people etc - I personally see the words we use such as "mosquito" , "cactus", "scarab" as possibly approximations in our language and experience that don't truly describe what the species actually is.
Andrea wrote: "Aubrey wrote: 'Makes you wonder about the evolution. Freak accident due to environmental factors? Mad scientist?'I think they are just what they are, formed by Darwinian evolution or whatever ..."
Oh, no. I admit to having found no direct evidence anywhere in the book, but I think all of the non-human species are, in a sense, Remade. And after previous comments on earlier chapters, begin to think the "humans" could be too.
I think it's fairly clear that their formation does not make sense according to "natural laws", but may make sense when one considers alchymy. Hence, Motley's interest in the transition, specifically with regard to "people". Convergent evolution is not sufficient to explain the similarities between so many species. I believe the entire purpose of The Ribs is to suggest that none of the species of Bas Lag are native, and that all the inhabitants are somehow introduced, and possibly just part of a big experiment.
Derek wrote: "Oh, no. I admit to having found no direct evidence anywhere in the book, but I think all of the non-human species are, in a sense, Remade. And after previous comments on earlier chapters, begin to think the "humans" could be too...."aha!! yes this makes sense! how clever of you.
Traveller wrote: "Things start to get more interesting at this point... I wonder if the construct is having problems for a reason..."Well, you know what they say about a gun on the mantel... somebody's gunna get shot"
Derek wrote: "I think it's fairly clear that their formation does not make sense according to "natural laws", but may make sense when one considers alchymy. Hence, Motley's interest in the transition, specifically with regard to "people". Convergent evolution is not sufficient to explain the similarities between so many species. ..."I really like that exposition a lot. I admit i had not quite thought of it like that before, but that would really help me to accept the incongruities of many of the species better; -especially that of the cactus-people, whom i had thought just silly before.
Biologically speaking, they simply don't make sense- unless of course, they are remade and/or genetically engineered.
I do think it is slightly sloppy of Mieville not to have made the biology seem a bit more logical with some kind of background explanation.
He gives the "what it looks like" and he give us the "why" historically and sociologically speaking with the Kephri, but not the "how did it get this way" on a biological level.
Well, Derek just did that for us in one paragraph!
Of course,one must look at where Mieville grabbed his inspiration from- and him being a graduate of the human sciences, and therefore obviously more interested in the cultural aspect, i suppose that is where he focuses.
Even his sources for the creatures are all cultural- world mythology, (Kephri, Vodyanoi, Garuda) and comic book and videogame culture (Cactus people) and science fiction/Cyberpunk culture for the, er.. machines and computers, and Steampunk culture for a lot of the remade ideas.
Heh, I kept thinking that the Remaking was actually inspired by the improbable inter-species that this world is full of. I mean, seeing how a Khepri combines both human and beetle features (although Khepri would, of course, disagree) can easily make you wonder whether you could do a similar thing, but as a punishment, to another person.I have a suspicion that some huge environmental catastrophe was responsible for the species diversity here. That, I guess, just underscores how I tend to think about our world as 'normal' and everything else as a deviation from the norm that has to be explained.
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Derek wrote: "I believe the entire purpose of The Ribs is to suggest that none of the species of Bas Lag are native, and that all the inhabitants are somehow introduced, and possibly just part of a big experiment."
I just can't help thinking that the ribs could easily be an avanc (from 'The Scar') or another creature from the world/dimension/whatever avancs come from.
Derek wrote: "I think all of the non-human species are, in a sense, Remade. And after previous comments on earlier chapters, begin to think the "humans" could be too...."Now I'm beginning to read this novel as a demented version of The Island of Lost Toys.....
Nataliya wrote: "I just can't help thinking that the ribs could easily be an avanc (from 'The Scar') or another creature from the world/dimension/whatever avancs come from..."
Hmm. Interesting, i have noticed on my re-read, other aspects from The Scar, such as the Cray embassy; and although i did toy with the idea that CM already had The Scar planned or written when he was still working on PSS, PSS was published in 2001 and The Scar in 2003, which makes it relatively unlikely, but not completely unlikely or impossible.
Let's note that down as one of the questions we'd like to ask him if we ever manage to lure him into an author interview. ;)
Traveller wrote: "Well, Derek just did that for us in one paragraph"Thanks. I'm still not entirely clear on it, myself, but I'm certainly looking for confirmation, or not, of my theory in this reread.
I don't think it's sloppy that Miéville hasn't given a background explanation � I don't think he really wants us to know. It's a Mystery.
Nataliya wrote: "Heh, I kept thinking that the Remaking was actually inspired by the improbable inter-species that this world is full of..."
I'm pretty sure I agree with that. Whether I'm right about the origins of the people of Bas Lag or not, the current society has no memory of its origins, but they've always had that example before them.
I never thought about the Ribs that way, but it does make sense.
Derek wrote: "I don't think it's sloppy that Miéville hasn't given a background explanation � I don't think he really wants us to know. It's a Mystery.."Granted that this is not SF, but from an SF POV it appears sloppy. But then i have to grant you that Mieville never styled himself an SF writer, rather than a New Weird writer, which doesn't seek logic above inventiveness, and can, in fact appear completely illogical, quite legitimately.
So i can't really fault the mystery too much. It's just a bit of an itchiness for the obsessive compulsive hiding inside my skin. :P
I don't think that Miéville ever styled himself as "New Weird". In the interviews I have read, he uses the term "Weird Fiction" and usually only because he has been pressed by an interviewer to imprison himself inside a genre. Book academics seem to feel a need to categorize authors; and many of them have classified him as "New Weird"Almost all the authors he admires (some may say "influenced him") were , a while back, also genre benders.
So I have always guessed that the strictures of science fiction, fantasy, or political allegory are not constraints that he would acknowledge.
Mosca wrote: "I don't think that Miéville ever styled himself as "New Weird". In the interviews I have read, he uses the term "Weird Fiction" and usually only because he has been pressed by an interviewer to imp..."I did read an interview where he vowed to write at least one work in every genre.
So far he has written what is basically fantasy/Steampunk (Bas-lag), so-called 'crime fiction' with The City and The City, children's fiction with Unlundun, and YA with Railsea, and of course, his fiction ranges from short stories over novellas to long, full-length novels and even a series if you count the Bas-lag novels as a series.
His comment might have been a joke or meant semi-seriously, but his fiction does defy convention in any case.
Reading the New Weird - i have a compendium or two of New Weird fiction in which China's work also features.Also, see this interview with CM:
Of course, the terms "New Weird" "Weird" and "Bizarro" are all closely linked and often used interchangeably.
Though Weird is slightly older than New Weird.
See:
for Weird
( Notable authors:
Ambrose Bierce
Algernon Blackwood
Walter de la Mare
E. R. Eddison
C. M. Eddy, Jr.
L. P. Hartley
William Hope Hodgson
Robert E. Howard
Shirley Jackson
T. E. D. Klein
Thomas Ligotti
H. P. Lovecraft
Oliver Onions
M. P. Shiel
Clark Ashton Smith )
and
for New Weird.
It mentions: The New Weird is a literary genre that began in the 1990s and developed in a series of novels and stories published from 2001 to 2005. The writers involved are mostly novelists who are considered to be parts of the horror and/or speculative fiction genres but who often cross genre boundaries. Notable authors include China Miéville and Jeff VanderMeer.
Bold emphasis is mine.
Traveller, I'm on a dial-up internet connection out here in the remote desert. So my self-edits sometimes show up later than the urban, broadbanders are accustomed to.Above (#17) I edited my statement to read: "So I have always guessed that the strictures of science fiction, fantasy, or political allegory are not constraints that he would acknowledge.". My apologies for any confusion.
Most of the interviews that I've read of him were done some time ago during earlier phases of his writing, so I am only guessing as to his own intents.
My comments were addressing China Miéville's perceived need to provide any "scientific" background for his "science". I suspect that he, intentionally, felt no constraint.
Thank you, Traveller, for your tireless efforts in creating and maintaining these supurb threads.
Sorry Mosca. I've also edited my second post a bit to add additional info. But why i prefer to call him "New Weird" rather than Weird, is because Weird tends to be associated with people like Lovecraft, and New Weird, as Wikipedia acknowledges, tends to defy genre boundaries in the first place.Ok, now i won't post for a while. :P
Mosca wrote: "My comments were addressing China Miéville's perceived need to provide any "scientific" background for his "science". I suspect that he, intentionally, felt no constraint.."I see your point and agree. I tried to convey that the need for " a logical system" is probably much more a function of my own OCD (read: pain-in-the-ass):P tendencies, than any real need for a system that seems scientific or logically congruent in any scientific sense.
Sorry people, sometimes i just can't contain my own finickiness and nitpickiness.. :P
Traveller wrote: "So far he has written what is basically fantasy/Steampunk (Bas-lag), so-called 'crime fiction' with The City and The City, children's fiction with Unlundun, and YA with Railsea"Also: A Western (to some extent) with 'Iron Council', sci-fi with 'Embassytown', adventure novel with 'The Scar', urban fantasy with 'Kraken'.
I'm holding my breath for a Victorian romance by China Miéville (I believe the idea was born in one of the conversations with Richard), because then the world can implode quite happily.
Nataliya wrote: "I'm holding my breath for a Victorian romance by China Miéville "Hehehe, or simply, a Romance by China Miéville. I can't stop grinning at the idea! It will be the first romance that I read in years!!
..on the other hand, some of the sex scenes in The Scar really put me off a bit... :P
Traveller wrote: "..on the other hand, some of the sex scenes in The Scar really put me off a bit... :P"The Lovers, by any chance? The most off-putting idea of a sex scene for me was actually the idea of Isaac and Lin doing it. I just really really really hate bugs, and imagining that makes my skin crawl. Even though I like Lin as a character.
Well, for the record, i have a phobia re cockroaches, and i'm not to fond of praying mantises either, so...The Scar spoiler: (view spoiler)
Traveller wrote: "Well, for the record, i have a phobia re cockroaches, and i'm not to fond of praying mantises either, so...The Scar spoiler: [spoilers removed]"
Oh, THAT one! I actually looked through my copy of 'The Scar' just now to reread it - and I have to say, the way that one is written actually makes me have that funny lump in my throat and makes me marvel at the way CM described the feelings involved:
(view spoiler)
I'm amazed that he made something that could have been difficult to read into something so beautiful - at least in my perception, showing the reader one of so many of the meanings of the titular scar.
Nataliya wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Well, for the record, i have a phobia re cockroaches, and i'm not to fond of praying mantises either, so...The Scar spoiler: [spoilers removed]"
Oh, THAT one! I actually looke..."
Yes, the passages you mention in the spoiler is indeed well done. No, it was other things that had put me off. :P
Nataliya wrote: "Even though I like Lin as a character..."I found it amusing that I identified more with Lin, the alien female with a bug head, than I did with Issac, a member of my own species. Are we bound by gender more than genus, I wonder....or was that just me?
Chance wrote: "Nataliya wrote: "Even though I like Lin as a character..."I found it amusing that I identified more with Lin, the alien female with a bug head, than I did with Issac, a member of my own species. ..."
I think CM has been very clever, and managed to characterize her into a likeable character... I liked her as well.
Chance wrote: "Nataliya wrote: "Even though I like Lin as a character..."I found it amusing that I identified more with Lin, the alien female with a bug head, than I did with Issac, a member of my own species. ..."
Well, Lin was written as a way more likable character - talented, headstrong, determined. It was easy to like her. Isaac, on the other hand, was quite unlikable throughout the story, in my opinion.
Nataliya wrote: "Chance wrote: "Nataliya wrote: "Even though I like Lin as a character..."I found it amusing that I identified more with Lin, the alien female with a bug head, than I did with Issac, a member of m..."
Having scientist friends helps me understand Isaac. He has a bit of emotional immaturity, but his brain power and scientific curiosity, I find attractive.
Chance wrote: "Having scientist friends helps me understand Isaac. He has a bit of emotional immaturity, but his brain power and scientific curiosity, I find attractive. ."Do you think he's naive?
Traveller wrote: "It's just a bit of an itchiness for the obsessive compulsive hiding inside my skin."I completely agree. I _hate_ unsolved mysteries, but with CM I've come to accept that he's never going to give me all the answers I want.
Traveller wrote: "Ok, now i won't post for a while."
Well done - you lasted 10 minutes! :)
Chance wrote: "Nataliya wrote: "Even though I like Lin as a character..."
I found it amusing that I identified more with Lin, the alien female with a bug head, than I did with Issac, a member of my own species. ..."
No, it's not gender. I'm pretty sure I'm male, and find it much easier to sympathize with Lin. I might _identify_ more with Isaac, but because I see my own faults in him, not because we're both male. And I don't think those faults are particularly gender-based. And yes, he's very naive.
Andrea wrote: "Do you think he's naive?"I wasn't thinking naive. Most of us are like pies baked in an uneven oven -- some parts are burnt, others are raw, and, if we're lucky, some parts are just right.
Derek wrote: "I'm pretty sure I'm male,..."You made me chuckle here, Derek.
Andrea wrote: "Chance wrote: "Having scientist friends helps me understand Isaac. He has a bit of emotional immaturity, but his brain power and scientific curiosity, I find attractive. ."Do you think he's naive?"
I wonder why you would ask this?
Because he's in love? Because he's a romantic? Because he indulges in a little transgressive love, baby?
I think it's time we had some music:
Come loose your beetle head upon me
And let your hair hang down.
You are a little mystery to me
Every time you come around.
We talk about it all night long
We define our moral ground.
But when I crawl into your arms
Everything comes tumbling down.
Your beetle face has fallen sad now
For you know the time is nigh
When I must remove your wings
And you, you must try to fly.
I have been partly estranged from my 17 year old daughter Claudia for a couple of years. It has been very hurtful, but I resolved at the beginning and after counselling that didn't really succeed, that I should just be patient. On Wednesday night, after everybody else had gone to bed, I was typing my updates for PSS in preparation for writing my review.
I knew Claudia was in bed reading, when suddenly I heard, "Dad? Dad?" She wasn't panicked, but I knew she needed me.
When I walked into her room, the first time I had been invited there for two years, she said she thought there was a cockroach under her bed.
After I screamed and jumped up on her bed myself, I checked. I couldn't find anything. I went and got a paper towel, and when I got back, I could see a beetle.
I gently wrapped it in the paper towel, walked outside and released it into the night sky.
I went back into Claudia's room, kissed her goodnight for the first time in two years and closed her door.
That beetle gave me my daughter back. I feel pretty good about beetles at the moment.
Ian wrote: "Andrea wrote: 'Do you think he's naive?'I wonder why you would ask this?"
Of course, I don't know why Andrea would ask, but I said that I believe he is, for none of those reasons. It didn't actually occur to me that he might be naive in love.
I think his attitude to academe is extremely naive - he doesn't like the way he's expected to do things at the university, so he assumes he's brilliant enough to make his own way in the world. Universities in New Crobuzon appear to work much the way they do every where I'm familiar with, and he ends up living a hand-to-mouth existence.
It's a little scary how little you had to modify the lyrics to make that song fit...
Thanks, Derek.Isaac thinks of himself as an outcast-scientist, which dovetails in with the description of Lin as "outre".
I assumed his ideas would have been considered radical and non-mainstream in academic terms.
We all hear universities claiming academic freedom, but the commercial reality is, you wouldn't even get a job, if you wanted to bring such radical ideas into a university from the outside.
Isaac at least seems to have gotten in, but presumably alienated Vermishank and was cast out.
In the old days, we used to describe his conduct in terms of idealism and integrity.
Now, in more commercial times, we seem to describe it as naive.
The question is: do you remain loyal to your invention/discovery or do you get a job that pays the bills.
In the end, he had more in common with artists and musicians.
Chance wrote: "Having scientist friends helps me understand Isaac. He has a bit of emotional immaturity, but his brain power and scientific cur..."I agree with this. Isaac is one whose first love is science, and as consequence he makes a lot of horrible assumptions when it comes to things outside of his research. Which includes thinking that he can bend the rules when it comes to his relationships with Lin, the university, and anyone/anything else that he depends on in his life. He's very involved in his passion, but that kind of overwhelming devotion always comes with a price.
Aubrey wrote: "as consequence he makes a lot of horrible assumptions when it comes to things outside of his research. Which includes thinking that he can bend the rules when it comes to his relationships with Lin, the university, and anyone/anything else that he depends on in his life."Ian wrote: "Andrea wrote: "
I wonder why you would ask this?..."
I ask because I think he is, but everyone is finding deeper depths in CM's writings than I am so now I'm not sure of my interpretation. I think CM has deliberately written him as naive, not expecting consequences of actions, going through life thinking he is immune to the rules.
Not because of the trans-species sex, like I said earlier it's not our world so our "rules" don't apply, and quite frankly if someone in our world had a thing for beetles, as long as it's not where I or my kids can see it, I'm cool.
Ian wrote: "I have been partly estranged from my 17 year old daughter Claudia for a couple of years. It has been very hurtful, but I resolved at the beginning and after counselling that didn't really succeed, ..."awww
Ian wrote: "I feel pretty good about beetles at the moment. , ..."Along the way I've been challenged by a plethora of difficult tasks but nothing more difficult and challenging than raising another human being.
Did you know Darwin had quite an affection for beetles? He mentions it in his autobiography. Oh Nataliya, you're gonna love this... actually, maybe you'd better close your eyes or look away for this one...: <(‘_'<)
"I saw two rare beetles and seized one in each hand; then I saw a third and new kind, which I could not bear to lose, so that I popped the one which I held in my right hand into my mouth. Alas it ejected some intensely acrid fluid, which burnt my tongue so that I was forced to spit the beetle out, which was lost, as well as the third one."
... okay, you can open them now. (>'_')>
I think it's pretty obvious that Isaac has a lot of hubris, which has some rather serious consequences later in the novel. I suppose naive could be one word for it.Beyond the hubris, i didn't find Isaac really naive as much as socially unpolished and to a certain extent emotionally immature. Looking at his eating habits, for instance, he certainly isn't the most couth person around.
His hubris also shows when he goes to the garuda community and thinks he can buy their co-operation with cash. On the other hand, Lin went with him, and didn't foresee the outcome of that little excursion either.
Ian wrote: "In the old days, we used to describe his conduct in terms of idealism and integrity.Now, in more commercial times, we seem to describe it as naive."
I don't see these as being exclusive. I'd say he's idealistic (I'm not completely convinced of his integrity - at least early in the story), but dictionary definitions of naive are all milder than I actually thought:
. That certainly seems to be a valid observation of Isaac.
Traveller wrote: "His hubris also shows when he goes to the garuda community and thinks he can buy their co-operation with cash."Regarding the garuda - I was perplexed by the whole section about searching for the garuda at the fair. Why did he have to go to such lengths, when there are garuda living in New Crobuzon? (Now, if he'd tried to get the locals' cooperation, first, I could understand). How could anybody have been fooled by the Remade garuda? I guess I'd file that under "i can't help wondering why he introduces some elements that he never fully develops"!
Traveller wrote: "His hubris also shows when he goes to the garuda community and thinks he can buy their co-operation with cash. On the other hand, Lin went with him, and didn't foresee the outcome of that little excursion either."Isaac's behavior was so frustrating in that scene! He was trying to act like he was completely oblivious to the very real danger they were facing, just waving his money around like it was supposed to give him respect and protection. Lin did not foresee that outcome, either, but she was the one who eventually pulled Isaac to safety before he could do some real damage.
I never really thought of Issac as naive - I tend to view him as more immature and insensitive than anything else, like an overgrown child. Remember the scene at the fair where Isaac is 'depressed' and Derkhan calls him out on the real reason for that?
“I’m fucking depressed now,� said Isaac heavily. He bit at the sickly-sweet bundle he carried. Wisps of sugar fibres stuck to his stubble.
“Yes, but are you depressed because of what’d been done to that man, or because you didn’t get to meet a garuda?� asked Derkhan.
They had left the freakshow. They munched earnestly as they walked past the garish body of the fair.
Isaac pondered. He was a little taken aback.
“Well, I suppose . . . probably because I didn’t meet a garuda ... But,� he added defensively, “I wouldn’t be half so depressed if it’d just been a scam, someone in a costume, something like that. It’s the ... fucking indignity of it that really sticks in the craw...�
I find it telling how Isaac is surprised to discover that the main reason for him being upset was because he did not get what he wanted - like an overgrown child at a fair who did not get his treat.
I also found it hilarious that he despises Vermishank so much and yet he knows that the other man knows about Issac stealing from the university for his experiment - and continues to count on the man he hates so much to continue allowing him to do that.
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Derek wrote: "Traveller wrote: "His hubris also shows when he goes to the garuda community and thinks he can buy their co-operation with cash."
Regarding the garuda - I was perplexed by the whole section about ..."
Good point, Derek. The best explanation I can think about is that the garuda keep to themselves so much, in their little New Crobuzonian ghetto that is rarely visited by your regular New Crobuzoner, that they remain just as strange and unknown to them as if they lived across the oceans. But that's just my guess.
Derek wrote: "Traveller wrote: "His hubris also shows when he goes to the garuda community and thinks he can buy their co-operation with cash."Regarding the garuda - I was perplexed by the whole section about ..."
Well, if you wanted to be logical about it, i guess going to a "show" is easier and potentially more fun than trekking out to the outskirts of town into a potentially hostile environment? (Not to mention, 'hard to reach', since they made their "nests" so high up.)
Maybe they thought they'd have fun at the show--after all, that's what such a 'fair' is for, usually, and in Victorian times (maybe still?) people enjoyed having spectacles to gape at.
As someone who has read the book before, i can't help wondering why he introduces some elements that he never fully develops. ..but let me stop there lest i spoil anything...
Also, we learn a bit more about Mr Motley and his dealings, and we learn a bit more about Lin and Kinken and Kephri history, sociology and biology.
In the meantime, the caterpillar is growing, and Isaac has some trouble with his construct.
Things start to get more interesting at this point... I wonder if the construct is having problems for a reason...
We also get to hear some about Bas-lag's version of nuclear fission, namely "Torque".