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...or on Hardboiled-detective stories.
Sword Noir is the term, author, Fraser Ronald coined to describe his S&S RPG: . In his Black Gate , Ronald notes:

"Let’s unpack the definition. First off, the characters � both those of the player’s and those run by the gamemaster—have questionable morals.[...] Early sword & sorcery � or S&S � shared many stylistic similarities to hardboiled fiction � which we’ll just call noir for short � but both the intersections and the differences helped to inform the concept of sword noir.[...] The rules for combat in Sword Noir are such that a lucky hit by even the weakest of opponents can lay a character out. And the gods help you if you are outnumbered. This is certainly not the world of Conan or Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser."

Alex Bledsoe's "Eddie LaCrosse", 's "Dorgo the Dowser" series, Glen Cook's Garrett, P.I. series, Steven Brust's "Vlad Taltos" series, could be considered Sword Noir fiction.

As a fiction sampler, read the "Dorgo the Dowser" tale, "� by Joe Bonadonna available for free on Black Gate.

"Moonstones" is a little too "cutesy" for my tastes, but I can see the point about stylistic similarities with hardboiled fiction. Still, I'd like to see someone do for S&S what Fatale does for Cthulhoid fiction (yes, "Cthulhoid" - or maybe "Cthulhesque"?). Maybe I'll have to give it a shot myself . . . hmm.

Forrest wrote: ""Moonstones" is a little too "cutesy" for my tastes, but I can see the point about stylistic similarities with hardboiled fiction. Still, I'd like to see someone do for S&S what Fatale does for Cth..."

"Moonstones" is lighter in tone than the rest of the Dorgo stories (collected in Mad Shadows: The Weird Tales of Dorgo the Dowser). It probably pays homage more to the noir film of the '40s. It's like in contrast to Chandler's book. The eponymous story in Joe Bonadonna's collection, "Mad Shadows", plays with the tropes of noir fiction exacly like you describe in your review of Fatale.
Have you tried Black Kiss? Chaykin tries to do to crime comics what Jim Thompson did to crime books.

Cool. I've marked Mad Shadows "to read".

Haven't tried Black Kiss yet. Fatale, Volume 2, I was just notified by Amazon, is in the mail. Can't wait!

Thank you, Forrest! Yes, Black Kiss is quite good. Jim Butcher's work is great, too.

Thanks, Periklis -- and the support!

"Moonstones" was an "experiment." I wanted to do a tale that was a little more humorous than the others. It's the only one written in 3rd person, though "The Man Who Loved Puppets" that follows it in the book is told BY Dorgo, as he heard it from the other players who were involved in it before he was dragged into it. That one, and the last two are more serious, more dramatic, and somewhat tragic, I think. Well, that's what I went for, anyway. Sort of like LOTR. Starts out with a birthday party, grows darker with each chapter.

Thanks, everyone!

Joe

Joe wrote: "Thanks, Periklis -- and the support!

"Moonstones" was an "experiment." I wanted to do a tale that was a little more humorous than the others. It's the only one written in 3rd person, though "The M..."

Thanks for commenting. So, "The Man Who Loved Puppets" has a Rashomon vibe. I think I'll be reading it next...

I have never read any Sword Noir books. After reading the S&S collection In Savage Lands from Jason E. Thummel, I liked his style and detected his "mystery style of writing" (see my review for more on that). I was tempted to read his Lance Chamber mysteries: Cult of Death or The Spear of Destiny. Anyone read those yet? Are they considered Sword Noir?

I have been told that The Spear of Destiny can be considered Sword Noir, and that it's pretty good, too. When I'm writing my "acid gothic" or S&S Noir, I do not read any fantasy at all. I usually read fim history or rock and roll history. So I'm way behind on my reading in the other genres.

Now I am a bit bemused. Questionable morals: in terms of what century? Achilles was said by Homer to take slaves and sell them; Diomedes and Odysseus (during the night hunt) killed a prisoner after interrogating him with a promise of release as his encouragement. "Sack and pillage" means "rape and pillage." Are we writing sword and sorcery, or writing about modern people in ancient dress and holding ancients to a modern standard -- here or anywhere else in the larger s&s genre? What other factors make 'Sword Noir' recognizable?

Really interesting observation. From the little I have read in this (sub)genre, Sword Noir resembles Raymond Chandler's setting and (his) characters' ethos. In fact I was reminded of the opening chapter from The Big Sleep:

“The main hallway of the Sternwood place was two stories high. Over the entrance doors, which would have let in a troop of Indian elephants, there was a broad stained-glass panel showing a knight in dark armor rescuing a lady who was tied to a tree and didn’t have any clothes on but some very long and convenient hair. The knight had pushed the vizor of his helmet back to be sociable, and he was fiddling with the knots on the ropes that tied the lady to the tree and not getting anywhere. I stood there and thought that if I lived in the house, I would sooner or later have to climb up there and help him. He didn’t seem to be really trying.�

Forrest wrote: ""Moonstones" is a little too "cutesy" for my tastes, but I can see the point about stylistic similarities with hardboiled fiction. Still, I'd like to see someone do for S&S what Fatale does for Cth..."

I wanted to go with a humorous story for Dorgo the Dowser as the third story in the book, the last to have that sort of humor (and the only story told in 3rd person)because the following three stories are darker in tone, and much more dramatic. The new stories -- "The Book of Echoes," soon to be published in Heathen Oracle's AZIERAN: ARTIFACTS AND RELICS, and especially "The Order of the Serpent," to be published in a special edition of WEIRD TALES, are far from humorous, and stray closer to Chandler territory. I am working on another Dorgo tale, "The Girl Who Loved Ghouls," which is quite different in subject matter and subtext. I'm calling it "sword and frued." WATERS OF DARKNESS, a collaboration between Dave Smith and myself, has just been published by Damnation Press. This is swords, sorcery, and 17th century pirates, with a Lovecraftian element. The first couople of chapters use humor to establish the characters, ie: they do smile and laugh and joke around, but it's a tale of romance, high-seas adventure and human tragedy.

Joe wrote: "I wanted to go with a humorous story for Dorgo the Dowser as the third story in the book, the last to have that sort of humor (and the only story told in 3rd person)because the following three stor..."

Sounds great, Joe!