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Hello Everyone,

For the week of September 16, 2013 - September 22, 2013, we are reading Chapter NINETEEN and TWENTY, (p. 398 - 435) of Roosevelt's Centurions: FDR & the Commanders He Led to Victory in World War II.

This week's reading assignment is:

Week Sixteen - September 16th - September 22nd -> Chapter NINETEEN and TWENTY, p. 398 - 435
NINTEEN - Europe: Broad Axe Versus the Spear and TWENTY - Stilwell leaves China, Macarthur Returns to Philippines

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on May 28th (the day the book is released officially). We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on September 16th. We offer a special thank you to Random House for their generosity.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Alisa will be leading this discussion.

Welcome,

~ Alisa


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Joseph E. Persico

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

(Part One) http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...
(Part Two) http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Q&A with Joseph

Please as you are reading post questions to the author's Q&A thread because Joe Persico will be looking in periodically and will be posting answers to your questions and will be available for a chat. We are very fortunate that he is making time to spend with us.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

by Joseph E. Persico

Chapter Overview and Summaries

Chapter 19 - Europe: Broad Axe Versus the Spear, p. 398-415

The Germans put up a strong inland defense in France against the Normandy invasion. Churchill was back pedaling in his support for the southern shore French invasion and FDR held firm. Their disagreement prompted a heated exchange. Churchill eventually relents, and the Germans show little resistance.

Eisenhower favored a broad European campaign contrasted with Montgomery's single narrow drive strategy. Omar Bradley was now in charge of the forces which included Patton's command. They were ultimately successful in cornering the German troops. Eisenhower agreed to include the French resistance fighters in the battle to liberate Paris from the Germans. De Gaulle is recognized by the allies as the provisional head of state. The advance through France was moving ahead of plan. Ike and Montgomery meet and discuss strategy and Monty backs down.

Ike puts through a request to make Kay Summersby an honorary WAC.

The Russian front suffered significant losses early in fighting the Germans but turn the tide by early 1943. The Red Army manages to push west toward Warsaw. The Poles plan an uprising to coincide with the Red Army advance, only to have Stalin reneg on supporting them against the Germans. Harriman pleads for support for the Poles only to be told the Warsaw uprising was "an adventuristic affair to which the Soviet government could not lend its hand." (p. 407) By the time the Red Army dropped supplies in Poland, it was to little to late.

FDR & Churchill meet for the seventh time in Quebec to discuss Britain's role in the war against Japan. Although not at the conference, Stalin signals a willingness to battle Japan once Germany was out of the picture The Pacific issues are left unresolved.

Monty proposes a plan to launch an airborne attack to take the bridges in Holland leading to Berlin. The last bridge battle fails and casualties exceed D-Day in the failed attempt. The first German city to be taken is at Achen. FDR is angered at photos showing GIs fraternizing with German inhabitants. FDR takes a hard stand in his vision of post-war Germany and Morgenthau proposes a plan that breaks up the country into small countries, but Stimson opposed the plan. FDR brings his cabinet together to discuss the issue but the plan unravels when it is leaked to the press. Dewey uses it in campaign ads against FDR.


Chapter 20 - Stilwell Leaves China, MacArthur Returns to the Philippines, p. 416 - 435

Progress in China was lagging in the Fall of '44. FDR supplied a Chinese offensive into Japan, but China sat on their hands. Chiang viewed the US as a supply chain so he could stave off the communists. Stilwell warned it could turn into civil war. FDR wanted to get Chiang to cooperate with the communists in the NW provinces but the generalissimo did not want the US to have contact with the communists. Stilwell was anti-new deal but was willing to give aid in exchange for fighting the Japanese. FDR appeals to Chiang to put Stilwell in charge of forces in China to fend off the advancing Japanese. Marshall warns that continued aid to China compromised support in other theaters. FDR decides to relieve Stilwell of duties in China.

MacArthur embarks for the Philippines and lands at Leyte in a self-made fan fare announcing his promised return. The Japanese undertake a naval battle off shore to strand invasion forces but Japan suffered high losses in the failed attack. It was the first time the Japanese used kamikaze attacks against the US.

Support for George Marshall as a presidential candidate was started by a Democratic Senator from Colorado but Marshall asks Stimson to squash the idea. Mention of Ike as a presidential prospect was first mentioned in '43 to which he discounted the thought. MacArthur goes around FDR and Marshall to approach Churchill with the idea of putting all US and British efforts on the Russian front. FDR had seen a poll suggesting he would lose electorate support to Dewey if the war ended before the election. A MacArthur for president effort starts to take hold but public support for the general as president was lacking. FDR meets with a MacArthur subordinate in DC and later instructs Stimson to remind reporters of the ban on active military running for office. MacArthur eventually puts out a statement that he would not accept the Republican nomination. Word is leaked to FDR that the Dewey camp would suggest the President knew of Pearl Harbor before the attack due to the US breaking Japanese code. Marshall writes a letter to Dewey to keep mention of code-breaking out of the press, and after a phone discussion between the two Dewey drops the issue.

FDR's failing health was apparent to those around him, yet he pressed on for a fourth term.

Winston Churchill
Douglas MacArthur
Chiang Kai-shek
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Charles de Gaulle

Churchill opposes Operation Dragoon over concern it will draw away forces from Italy. FDR holds firm on going forward and stands his ground against Churchill. Had FDR had enough of being put off on D-Day that he was losing patience for other operation delays by the Prime Minister?

In a way, I think he did. However, I think it is more that he probably felt more confident once American blood has shed and the U.S. has proven it can win battles. I think the industrial might was showing, so he could throw his weight around a bit more.

Another factor Bryan, you are right about that. Churchill really seemed to hang onto the idea of the Italy campaign even after it was proving to be a fruitless strategy. FDR must have been harboring "I told ya so" thoughts.

Did anyone else know about the Polish uprising and Stalin not supporting it? Another tragic story and power move by Stalin. Crazy.

Joseph Stalin

That was sad. What on earth was he thinking? Perhaps he thought that by leaving Poland completely devastated it would pave the way for a Russian land grab. What an ugly situation.

I completely agree, Alisa. He already was thinking about how to control the territories his armies occupied. Clearly, he wanted Communist governments set up. These "rebels" were not, so why not use the war to eliminate the rivals. Shrewd and horrible. It makes the 1930s purges look like a training ground.

Joseph Stalin

Ruthless beyond words.

And yet (I don't know why this really bothers me, but it does), many of the trucks needed by the Soviets for the pivotal Battle of Kursk were supplied by the US. And Stalin wouldn't let us refuel at Soviet airbases to help the Polish Resistance because they weren't the 'right' type of resistance.

The more I learn about FDR and Stalin, the more repulsed I am.

I got the information on the trucks from an excellent atlas which I learned about from the HBC

by John Pimlott (no photo)

G, it certainly makes you wonder. It is the kind of sleeping with the enemy who is supposed to be your ally, and that is hardly a recipe for a win-win. It is hard to know just how much FDR knew about Stalin's tactics, and how much he chose to ignore. Ugh.

Thanks for the mention of your source info, good addition. I will also post it to the bibliography.
Joseph Stalin

Eisnhower and Montgomery have different strategies for slicing through Europe. They meet to discuss it and not surprisingly each commander defends their position. What do you think of how they dealt with the issue? I was a little surprised they had not had the conversation earlier and come to an understanding.
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Bernard Law Montgomery

Henry Morgenthau's plan for breaking up Germany into small agrarian states was actually considered by FDR as a plan for dealing with Germany after their defeat. But Stimson, who talked him out of it, was shocked by the idea and called it "Jewish vengeance" (pg 414). What do others think about this...either the plan or the reason for the plan?

I think Stimson feared the Morgenthau plan would result in the same resentment on the part of the Germans that occurred after WWI while Morgenthau himself felt that there was a 'near genetic militarism of the German people' (p413). Prejudice abounded on all sides, unfortunately.

The plan, in my mind, was not only poorly thought out, but just plain ridiculous and punitive. I would have liked to know more about Cordell Hull's input on this, as he really seemed to be not so closet anti-Semitic.

Absolutely, G. I think Stimson and others had the correct reasoning: there would be no way German citizens would accept going backwards. It was a bad idea and thankfully, it did not happen.

To me, it was more of a emotional response, not a geopolitical one.

I agree, Bryan, it seemed like an emotional response and an ill conceived idea. How would the German people tolerate such a plan? Seems like 'to the victor go the spoils' thinking run amok.

I thought it was totally idiotic and wanted to see what the rest of you thought......glad I wasn't alone in my opinion. Can you imagine turning Germany into one big farm? Who knows what would have happened if the
Allies had put that plan as part of the unconditional surrender. It would have made the Versailles Treaty of
WWI look like child's play.

Agree, Jill. Germany had an industrialized economy and to throw them back to the Medieval times was a bad plan.

"Victor go the spoils" is well said.

And not to belabor the point but did they think Hitler was just going to go quietly after defeat? To go from a unified country to little chopped up parcels, how could that have been thought plausible?

The situation in China comes to a head, and Stilwell is relieved of his duties. Chiang Kai-Shek never cooperated with Vinegar Joe, but I am not sure he would have with anyone. Was this a doomed idea from the start?
Chiang Kai-shek

On page 423, chapter 20, Douglas MacArthur says, "The exercise was pure theater." DM (as well as George Patton) had a way of unnecessarily provoking people with his careless and thoughtless statements. Was he worth having as a commander? No doubt not all would agree...

On page 428, it says of DM, "He claimed that Roosevelt was out to get him." His behavior and self-preoccupation seem to have compromised him as a commander. It would have been unpleasant at best to have a man as president with such a focus on himself.

On page 429, it states that, "Little support emerged for MacArthur the candidate." Though DM was a charismatic figure, FDR conveyed enough of the image of a confident leader to keep the public on his side. And an overly confident military leader (who delivers results on the battlefield) is much less likely to be tolerated in politics or in the public arena. Interesting to speculate how things might have been different with the end of WW II, dealings with the Russians, and the handling of the Korean War later if DM had been in the White House.

Lewis wrote: "On page 429, it states that, "Little support emerged for MacArthur the candidate." Though DM was a charismatic figure, FDR conveyed enough of the image of a confident leader to keep the public on h..."

To be sure, MacArthur thought highly of himself but the public not in a presidential way. It is hard to envision him having much political support even if he did find his way in office.

FDR had a lot going for him entering this presidential race, and as a wartime president he was smart to consistently make his case to the American people.

Douglas MacArthur

Age was not a major factor, but MacArthur, who was 2 years older than the frail FDR and a good 10 years older than Eisenhower, would have been the oldest president since before the Civil War.

Dwight D. Eisenhower
Douglas MacArthur

MacArthur was the king of creating a public image. His landing on his return to the Philippines was well staged (and documented as such in many sources)) although Persico doesn't really mention that aspect of the landing, Regardless, it was a great moment and of course, his "I have returned" speech was a masterpiece. But as a presidential candidate, it was a "no go"......too many in the Congressional leadership did not like him and that is the kiss of death for political aspirations. Besides, the American voter was not going to let go of FDR who had seen them through the Depression and the war.

The whole presidential prospect discussion was interesting but ultimately there really wasn't anyone to mount a serious run at FDR. Marshall seemed almost offended at the idea, and MacArthur had no support. Jill you are right the Erican voter was note about to abandon the President who brought them through the way FDR did.

I found it interesting, as well. FDR played a great card: don't change leaders in war. If WWII did not happen, Dewey would have done better. He was a able politician and he played the health card pretty well.

I think that FDR had momentum and was fairly entrenched.