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2013 Group Read #5: WE HAVE ALWAYS LIVED IN THE CASTLE, by Shirley Jackson

GROUP READ DETAILS
Reading starts: As soon as you're able
Discussion Starts: 10 July 2013 (Since this is a fairly short book)
*On the day, I'll add a note to the title of this thread to let people know the discussion's started. In the meantime, people can stop by this thread to chat, and post some bonus material about the book- but please tag any spoilers until discussion opens please.

FACTS & TRIVIA
*First published: 1962
*Author: Shirley Jackson (US)
*We Have Always Lived in the Castle, along with Saul Bellow's novel Herzog, and John Steinbeck's East of Eden, is dedicated to Pascal Covici, the Viking Press publisher.
*This was one of Time's "Ten Best Novels" of 1962. In March 2002, Book magazine named Mary Katherine Blackwood the seventy-first "best character in fiction since 1900."
*In 1966, the novel was adapted into a play by Hugh Wheeler, but closed on Broadway after only nine performances.

I'm also wondering if anyone else would like to volunteer to lead the discussion on this one? I've got a couple of things I need to get to before I can read this, so I might not make the deadline. Any takers?

Since Lee nominated the book, I nominate her to lead the discussion!

P.S. Is there still a link to the poll for this one? I wanted to revisit the list of nominations, since it is such an awesome list.

Whitney wrote: "Since Lee nominated the book, I nominate her to lead the discussion!

P.S. Is there still a link to the poll for this one? I wanted to revisit the list of nominations, since it is such an awesome l..."

!!!!- ok - never led a group discussion before - not particularly known for my leadership qualities! but will give it a go - is it just a matter of starting things off on the 10th -and ,of course, making wise and incisive comments :o) ?

Lee wrote: "!!!!- ok - never led a group discussion before - not particularly known for my leadership qualities! but will give it a go - is it just a matter of starting things off on the 10th -and ,of course, making wise and incisive comments :o) ? .."

LOL. Wise and incisive comments optional, I've found! But yeah - that's pretty much it! Thanks Lee - it's really much appreciated :)

Whitney wrote: "P.S. Is there still a link to the poll for this one? I wanted to revisit the list of nominations, since it is such an awesome list. .."

You can get to any of the polls by going to the "polls" link on the top right hand side of any of the Group screens. Here's the direct link too: http://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/85...

I'm thinking of adding the noms list (and some others) as a group shelf when I get the chance too.

I'm really excited to read this book and participate in my first Chaos Reading group read! I've just been standing outside the periphery admiring, but now I am ready to start contributing.

Hope you enjoy it, Carol

I now declare this discussion open - what did you all think?

Love the theme - bad seed, evil offspring, what have I spawned?

I love the fact that all the main characters (except Jonas the cat) are somewhat unhinged and that the most unbalanced one of them all narrates the story. I also like the happy ever after (sort of) ending which you don't see coming. It's a wonderful mixture of Gothic Horror and Fairy Tale.

I read in the afterward of my copy that Shirley Jackson and her husband lived in a village for a time and suffered a lot of harassment from their neighbours because he was jewish - this must have fed in to her description of the horrible village folk. It also said that she suffered from terrible agoraphobia and lived in just one room towards the end of her life.

Lee wrote: "I read in the afterward of my copy that Shirley Jackson and her husband lived in a village for a time and suffered a lot of harassment from their neighbours because he was jewish - this must have f..." I am not finished yet but the comments in the afterword are very well documented in an excellent bio of Shirley Jackson -
Private Demons: The Life of Shirley Jackson

Thanks Karen, I'll be adding that to my to read list forthwith

Many if no most of Jackson's books and short stories seem to have that theme of the petty bigotries of small towns. I also read somewhere that Constance's experiences with the judgey townspeople in the novel was largely based on Jackson's own experiences in Bennington. It leaves you wondering if the ending with the sisters living their much circumscribed and isolated lives in the remainder of their house is actually a form of 'happy' ending in Jackson's mind!

What I can't figure out is why Uncle Julian stated that Mary Katherine was dead. When he said that, I thought ohhh, she's been a ghost this whole time, but I was wrong and the story turned in a completely different direction! Maybe he knew all along that she was the one who poisoned them?

Carol wrote: "What I can't figure out is why Uncle Julian stated that Mary Katherine was dead. When he said that, I thought ohhh, she's been a ghost this whole time, but I was wrong and the story turned in a co..."

I never thought of that - I just assumed that it was because he was a bit on the mad side - but

Carol wrote: "What I can't figure out is why Uncle Julian stated that Mary Katherine was dead. When he said that, I thought ohhh, she's been a ghost this whole time, but I was wrong and the story turned in a co..."

I never thought of that - I just assumed that it was because he was a bit on the mad side - but you could be right. I love Uncle Julian - one of my favourite scenes is right at the beginning of the book when he ruins the tea party by going on and on about the poisonings just when tea and cakes are being served.

This was interesting for me as I first read this book years ago and long before I knew anything about Shirley Jackson. I did a reread because I could not remember anything except the name Merricat. According to Jacksons biographer -Private Demons: The Life of Shirley Jackson, Shirley talked to cats all her life and family members are on record as having witnessed the family cat perched on Shirley's shoulder, looking at her full face and quietly meowing, on a regular basis. Her children believed and still believe that she had magic powers and wove protective spells around the household. It appears that this story contained much more of Shirley Jackson than anything else she wrote. I think Uncle Julian meant that Mary Katherine was now Merricat, notice Constance never calls her sister anything but Merricat. Yet when Merryicat dreams of her family they call her Mary Katherine as do the towns people and the visiting cousin. Jackson is the best at creating a quiet normality that resides in a sinister landscape.

Constance, Uncle Julian and Merricat all live normal lives, they garden, read, shop, cook and even entertain while all the time knowing that Merricat has killed and I have to wonder, thinking she may take a dislike to them and then what. I wonder, why did Constance not inherit the house in town? Was there some shady secret the grew to infest the whole family? In the end, I do not believe the townspeople were apologizing. I think they were afraid of their own myths, giving Merricat more power than she really had. What do you think?

Lee wrote: "Carol wrote: "What I can't figure out is why Uncle Julian stated that Mary Katherine was dead. When he said that, I thought ohhh, she's been a ghost this whole time, but I was wrong and the story ..." I love the tea party scene. It is a prefect mash up of propriety.

Lee wrote: "I love the fact that all the main characters (except Jonas the cat) are somewhat unhinged and that the most unbalanced one of them all narrates the story. I also like the happy ever after (sort of)..."I like your description of Gothic Horror Fairy Tale.

Karen wrote: "In the end, I do not believe the townspeople were apologizing. I think they were afraid of their own myths, giving Merricat more power than she really had. What do you think?..."

I think that it started out as remorse, with the food showing up with specific notes of apology for things that people had done. There was also an element of charity, with Merricat saying they were "the biggest church supper" that the town had ever had. By the end, I think you're right that they are doing it out of fear, such as the basket of eggs with the note about the boy who walked up to their porch 'not meaning it'.

Small town prejudice followed by small town charity followed by small town superstition and fear.

Lee wrote: "Carol wrote: "What I can't figure out is why Uncle Julian stated that Mary Katherine was dead. When he said that, I thought ohhh, she's been a ghost this whole time, but I was wrong and the story ..."

Yes, I wondered what would happen if Merricat took a dislike to the remaining members of her family - when Constance starts falling under the influence of the cousin and showing disapproval of Merricat - she (Merricat) says something about feeling angry at Constance and needing to make sure that she doesn't lose sight of her (or something like that) and I got the impression that if she did "lose sight" of her - this would be very bad news for Constance.

Whitney wrote: "Karen wrote: "In the end, I do not believe the townspeople were apologizing. I think they were afraid of their own myths, giving Merricat more power than she really had. What do you think?..."

I t..."

This is what I find fascinating about it all... The town delivers gifts and treats to their doorstep out of fear from something that they have created themselves. Uncle Julian, Merricat and Constance continue on with their daily lives, but the townspeople can not. Whitney you hit the nail on the head about small town prejudice, charity, superstition and fear. I think their fear just may be a reflection of their guilt for their unhumanitarian ways of responding and dealing with the family. I.e. Harassing Merricat in town, trashing and burning the house, etc...

Am I the only one who wanted to reach in to the pages to give Charles a good slap?

Carol wrote: "Whitney wrote: "Karen wrote: "In the end, I do not believe the townspeople were apologizing. I think they were afraid of their own myths, giving Merricat more power than she really had. What do you..." I think this is the genius of this book. Is Merricats family dead? Yes. Did she kill them? Yes. Do we feel sympathy for her when she is attacked by the townspeople? Yes. In the end Merricats fanciful narration makes us her ally. We cannot help relating to her and wanting to save her from hurt and the townspeople come off as much worse than Merricat.

Carol wrote: "Whitney wrote: "Karen wrote: "In the end, I do not believe the townspeople were apologizing. I think they were afraid of their own myths, giving Merricat more power than she really had. What do you..."

yes he's awful - I love the way he gets so outraged at the idea of valuables being buried or simply left around the place rather than be tucked safely away in a bank. He's almost as mad as his cousins - but his mania is all about money.

Lee wrote: "Carol wrote: "Whitney wrote: "Karen wrote: "In the end, I do not believe the townspeople were apologizing. I think they were afraid of their own myths, giving Merricat more power than she really ha..." somehow I got my names mixed up and was thinking Charles was one of the townspeople as opposed to cousin Charles. You're right, Charles was probably the most offensive character in the book.

Karen wrote: "Carol wrote: "Whitney wrote: "Karen wrote: "In the end, I do not believe the townspeople were apologizing. I think they were afraid of their own myths, giving Merricat more power than she really ha..."

Yes, Yes, Thrice Yes! Merricat is a deranged arsonist and family poisoner who lets her sister take the blame for her killings and yet we are still completely on her side because of the sinister beauty and poetry of her narration - this thought has been bobbing around in my head for days but I couldn't express it properly.

I also totally agree with the idea that Mary Katherine "died" after the poisonings and became Merricat.

By the way - have any of Chaos Readings menfolk read this book? None of them seem to have made a comment. It's not what I'd describe as Chicklit :0)

Lee wrote: "Yes, Yes, Thrice Yes! Merricat is a deranged arsonist and family poisoner who lets her sister take the blame for her killings and yet we are still completely on her side because of the sinister beauty and poetry of her narration - this thought has been bobbing around in my head for days but I couldn't express it properly."

Exactly! Thanks. "Sinister beauty" is good. One critic also called it "merry disintegration...", which is also good. Then can we say a beautiful sinister romp? It was all in the style for me. The subject isn't new, as Andrea pointed out. Great writing tho. I liked the book a lot.