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This thread is to discuss and comment on From the Beast to the Blonde: On Fairy Tales and Their Tellers by Marina Warner, our July 15-September 14 Group read

I got hold of a copy! Now to start reading.

Got it and starting today

Mine's on request; should have it by next week.

Love how Warner is straight in there feminising anon and wresting the credit for women storytellers back from Perrault, Rosseau and bros who dipped a toe and got all the laurels

My library has it, but copy has not arrived yet. I have two other books to finish first, so in the meantime I am looking forward to reading everyone's impressions!

I did not know that the Sibyl had metamorphosed from a pagan godddess to a fairytale enchantress in Italian folklore. I wonder what other deities/fairytale figures were banished from the temple to the caves and forests of faerie by the conquest of monotheism...

Both class and gender are at issue in the story of tale-tellers. The elite Parisiennes who popularised written fairytales would admit that they had heard them from their nursemaids or other female servants. Since these sources remain nameless they are more instances of the female Anonymous. These Parisiennes are themselves obscured by the men who collected and published the stories, often with the uncredited skilled co-work of wives and female workers transcribing editing and arranging the texts.

Perrault also boasts that his versions of the tales eliminated moral ambiguity. it's a form of cultural violence i think, totally extractive and colonial

Ooo, I can't wait to start this, especially reading your thoughts, Zanna! It reminds me of Clever Maids: The Secret History of the Grimm Fairy Tales, which documents the primarily female sources for the Grimm brothers' collection.

My copy is buried in boxes and boxes and boxes of books--I just moved. But I might attempt to find which box soon so I can join in.

Yeah Margaret, Warner mentions the female donors to the Grimm stories in chapter 2 = )

She also gives a nod to Italo Calvino for mentioning the female sources for his Italian fairy tale collection, which I think some folks here are reading now too?

Zanna wrote: "Yeah Margaret, Warner mentions the female donors to the Grimm stories in chapter 2 = )

She also gives a nod to Italo Calvino for mentioning the female sources for his Italian fairy tale collection..."

Yes, I'm reading that and I know several others are as well, though I'm afraid to say I can no longer find it! It's lost somewhere among the boxes.

In his introduction, Calvino does discuss how the stories he collected come from many sources, and lists several.

Warner notes that the early collectors of fairy stories were not as interested in their sources as historians would be now, but the framing of the tales as told by 'old wives' normalises ignoring the source - the source is not a person who matters. In a way there's truth in this given the snowball/tributary movement of tales presumably being passed on, but misogyny figures in the denigration, dismissal and policing of stories as well as enabling their appropriation

I can't believe you all have read these types of books and have them in boxes stored away. Until I joined this group, I had not even realized or thought that I would read books on fairy tale histories, etc.

Kathy wrote: "I can't believe you all have read these types of books and have them in boxes stored away. Until I joined this group, I had not even realized or thought that I would read books on fairy tale histor..."

Haha, well, I took a class in grad school on fairy tales, and that's when I was introduced to a lot of the academic side of fairy tales, and was also very surprised at how much material on the subject there was! We didn't go over much in class because it was primarily a writing class, but later I started doing more research on my own, and then I joined this group. Also, one of my jobs is at a used bookstore where I used to shelve the fairy tale/mythology section, so that's where I picked up most of my books, and I've worked there for eight years, so that's a lot of time to find some awesome books!

I don't think I would make any money if I worked at a bookstore -- :)

Kathy wrote: "I don't think I would make any money if I worked at a bookstore -- :)"

If I worked in a bookstore that had a vegan cafe...

Chapter three is all about the silencing of women. I was interested to learn that the word 'gossip' originally meant a female friend invited by a woman to the christening of her child. The change came about since christenings were one of very few occasions when women outside the immediate family were able to meet and chat! I also had no idea that 'lying in' or 'confinement' (the period of time women spent in bed before and just after giving birth) were times of extraordinary sociableness for women, when their 'gossips' and other friends came to take care of them in large numbers. A very fashionable French lady created the salon tradition by inviting her friends to attend her using the formula of the 'lying in' as a kind of masquerade, lying in a fancy bed to receive her guests! Such camaraderie must have made many women happy to be pregnant or to see their friends pregnant.

Zanna wrote: "If I worked in a bookstore that had a vegan cafe..."

You made me swoon:)

Zanna wrote: "I did not know that the Sibyl had metamorphosed from a pagan godddess to a fairytale enchantress in Italian folklore. I wonder what other deities/fairytale figures were banished from the temple to ..."

That is facinating Zanna! Does Warner mention which Italian Fairy Tale Sibyl transforms into?

She explains that the Cumaean Sibyl takes up residence in a cave in the Apennines, which appears in Guerino il Meschino written around 1391. In the story, the Sibyl lives a life of constant carousing and eternal youth with many companions, but they all turn into snakes, at least below the waist, on Saturdays (this is interesting to me because I just read in which a particular character goes temporarily mad every Saturday morning). Antoine de la Sale visited the apparently cave in 1420, and wrote about it, describing the graffiti of knights who have ventured in, though he dared not enter himself. It was later destroyed as church authorities were cracking down on superstition...

I didn't realise when I made my earlier posts how important the Sibyls are - these pagan figures were rather enthusiastically imported into christian iconography (about which I am ignorant), and in their roles as seers and female speakers they are integral to Warner's gloriously meandering tale of the tellers

The Queen of Sheba has come into it as a Sibylline figure, Saint Anne, mother of Mary has come into it, goose feet, storks... storytelling is female and issues from the womb it seems...

Early versions of Red Riding Hood had the protagonist escape on her own initiative using deceit. Perrault let her die in the wolf's belly and tacked on a moral about predatory young men, while the Grimms added a woodcutter/father to rescue her. From clever lass to helpless damsel via two sets of male interpreters...

Eh, the rescue from the wolf clearly comes from

Doesn't Perrault pre-date the Grimms?

Yes, of course -- we can tell Grimms' version came from Perrault's because of the red cap, which does not exist in any of the collected from the folk variants in France.

Zanna wrote: "Chapter three is all about the silencing of women. I was interested to learn that the word 'gossip' originally meant a female friend invited by a woman to the christening of her child. The change c..."

I am at that part now. The part where she talks of the old engraving with the man giving all the wives new heads is really disturbing. Really?! Woman are just supposed to be quiet all the time!

Yes =( Warner comes back again and again to that Jalilah. When she says 'fairytales break the silence' it makes a difference to think about whose silence is being broken.

Mary/Chris yes exactly... Warner has it:

1 pre-Perrault - the girl saves herself with a trick
2 Perrault - the girl is eaten by the wolf
3 Grimms - the girl is eaten but then rescued (by an older man)

Thanks for linking to that version! = )

Kathy wrote: "I can't believe you all have read these types of books and have them in boxes stored away. Until I joined this group, I had not even realized or thought that I would read books on fairy tale histories..."

I can't remember how I got interested in it; I think because I was always interested in retellings/reimaginings, and the introductions often talked about history, backstory, analysis, etc.

Kathy wrote: "I don't think I would make any money if I worked at a bookstore -- :)"

I know I didn't.

LOL, Michele!

Anyway, I'm glad to be introduced to such things. Love the group.

Aaargh. Still waiting for my interlibrary loan to arrive. Not that I don't have more than enough TBRs in my Kindle and on my readernook table.

But I'm enjoying the discussion.

Zanna wrote: "The Queen of Sheba has come into it as a Sibylline figure, Saint Anne, mother of Mary has come into it, goose feet, storks... storytelling is female and issues from the womb it seems..."

I just read that chaper about birds now. Very interesting! I would not have made that connection! Honestly I also did not know that the Contes des Fees were also called "Mother Goose tales". I had always thought Mother Goose were nursery rhymes, like " Humpty Dumpty".

Zanna wrote: "I didn't realise when I made my earlier posts how important the Sibyls are - these pagan figures were rather enthusiastically imported into christian iconography (about which I am ignorant), and in..."

I knew about how many pagan God/Goddess figures were incorporated into Catholic lore, but not specifically the Sibyl figures. It makes sense and shows I have a lot to learn about Fairy-Folk tales and Mythology!

I am so happy this book was chosen as the group read and also that a book about Fairy tales is part of our 2015 Challenge! These days I tend to read more "for fun", so might not have read it on my own. So thanks everyone for making this happen!

I just saw Warner has a new book that just came out in 2014.
Once Upon a Time: A Short History of Fairy Tale

Jalilah wrote: "I just saw Warner has a new book that just came out in 2014.
Once Upon a Time: A Short History of Fairy Tale"

It's a pretty good general introduction. It's like OUP's Short Introduction series, though it isn't really part of that.

Okay, I did manage to get my hands on a copy of this book, but I'm going to have really limited time to read it before I have to move. I'm hesitant to pack it up with the rest of my stuff for fear it'll get lost and I'll accrue huge fines while trying to find it.

Are there particular chapters that you guys would recommend reading above others?

Melanti wrote: "Okay, I did manage to get my hands on a copy of this book, but I'm going to have really limited time to read it before I have to move. I'm hesitant to pack it up with the rest of my stuff for fear..."

The first half has more to do with the history and development of certain arctypes: Sybel figures, Queen of Sheba, Saint Anne, the Sage Femme, Mother Goose. The second half goes into the background of different tales and how they evolved.
I also have had a library copy that is due back soon, so I won't get to finish this time. I read the first part, but only had time to skim the second half.

Finally got my interlibrary loan copy three days ago. I am absorbed in Warner's delving into the storytellers. I wonder, would women's specialized occupations (particularly spinning and child-birth, but also food prep) lent themselves more to storytelling, while men's specialized occupations (smithy work, field work, construction) did not; those jobs spread the workers out, or made noise, or required silence (like hunting). So did harvesters sing, while spinners told stories?

Were men jealous of women for that, and resentful of the time when they had to leave the hearth to work with their fathers?

p.s. Now that I have the book in my hands, I wish I'd bought it used to begin with. It's a keeper for me--so many story sources to follow up--I'm only a few chapters in, and the book's full of sticky tabs.

Zanna wrote: "I didn't realise when I made my earlier posts how important the Sibyls are - these pagan figures were rather enthusiastically imported into christian iconography (about which I am ignorant), and in..."

I was grateful for this elucidation, too. I always wondered why Michelangelo put the Sibyls on the Sistine ceiling, along with the Prophets. I wonder whether someone's written more on that, and whether there the other three Sibyls were also incorporated into Christian lore.

About the time of Jesus's birth, Virgil wrote a poem about the marvelous birth of a wonderful child who would bring about a golden age.

This was interpreted, in the Christian era, as about him, and the most likely source of such knowledge struck them as being the Sibylline books.

Mary wrote: "About the time of Jesus's birth, Virgil wrote a poem about the marvelous birth of a wonderful child who would bring about a golden age.

This was interpreted, in the Christian era, as about him, an..."

Which is part of the reason it was acceptable to have Virgil as a guide for Dante.

Has anyone else read John Berger's comments on Sibyls of the Sistine Chapel? He calls them men in drag, and he's kinda right.

Susan wrote: "I wonder, did women's specialized occupations (particularly spinning and child-birth, but also food prep) lent themselves more to storytelling, while men's specialized occupations (smithy work, field work, construction) did not; those jobs spread the workers out, or made noise, or required silence (like hunting). So did harvesters sing, while spinners told stories? "

That's an intriguing theory which I haven't heard raised before. I wonder if anyone has explored it.

Susan wrote: "Finally got my interlibrary loan copy three days ago. I am absorbed in Warner's delving into the storytellers. I wonder, did women's specialized occupations (particularly spinning and child-birth, ..."

I started yesterday, and it sounds like we're at about the same spot!

I had the impression that Warner was saying that the specific tasks women did around the home lent themselves to storytelling--the boredom of repeating the same tasks. But she doesn't address men's work. I would be interesting in reading a history of work and storytelling that explored this more!

Michele wrote: "Susan wrote: "I wonder, did women's specialized occupations (particularly spinning and child-birth, but also food prep) lent themselves more to storytelling, while men's specialized occupations (sm..."

I've only seen it in books like this one.

Mary wrote: "About the time of Jesus's birth, Virgil wrote a poem about the marvelous birth of a wonderful child who would bring about a golden age.

This was interpreted, in the Christian era, as about him, an..."

Never knew that about Virgil. . .my high school offered third year Latin (Virgil), but I didn't stick with it. I'll bet anything they read that poem.

I just finished the chapter about Saint Anne, and am glad I have considerable reading time this weekend.

Thing is, I have to read with my notepad nearby, so I can look up the references (many of them glancing, but I'm curious) and even some word definitions. For example, I knew of course who Cassandra was, but had to look up Manta.

Also bookmarking some of the more obscure story or theme sources (when I can find them in translation).

Finally, finding the notepad makes it easier to study images of the art and illustrations Warner includes. (I do applaud the quantity of illustrations and plates.)

Must add my delight in finding so much here about 17th C literary France, specifically the Salons, around which my work-in-progress centers. I hope the rest of you weren't bored to find out that it was an honor to sit "in the alley" between the hostess' bed and the wall. The invention of central heating seems to have made tea parties much duller. . . .

Susan wrote: "Must add my delight in finding so much here about 17th C literary France, specifically the Salons, around which my work-in-progress centers. I hope the rest of you weren't bored to find out that it..."

I wasn't bored at all! What is your work-in-progress about?

Susan wrote: "Finally, finding the notepad makes it easier to study images of the art and illustrations Warner includes. (I do applaud the quantity of illustrations and plates.) "

I was struck by the artwork in Chapter 3 Part 3, The Mill of Old Wives, where husbands feed their old, ugly wives into the mill and they come out beautiful. Disgusting! Kind of reminded me of that reality tv show--The Swan.

Margaret wrote: was struck by the artwork in Chapter 3 Part 3, The Mill of Old Wives, where husbands feed their old, ugly wives into the mill and they come out beautiful. Disgusting! Kind of reminded me of that reality tv show--The Swan. .."


Wasn't that ghastly! I thought to myself is this really how so many men think about women? Didn't they have mothers that raised them?!

Jalilah wrote: "Wasn't that ghastly! I thought to myself is this really how so many men think about women? Didn't they have mothers that raised them?! "

I know! It really boggles my mind.