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Hello Everyone,

For the week of October 21st - October 27th, we are reading Part Three - Victories and Defeats - 39 BC to 37 BC - Sections 11 - 12 of the book Antony and Cleopatra.

The fifth week's reading assignment is:

Week 5 � October 21st - October 27th
Part Three - Victories and Defeats - 39 BC to 37 BC - Sections 11 - 12 - (187-225)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on September 23rd.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. This weekly thread will be opened up on October 21st.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this discussion and the back-up will be Jill.

Welcome,

Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS, SELECT VIEW ALL

by Colleen McCullough

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Here is the link:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc. with proper citations or other books either nonfiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self-promotion, please.

Here is the link:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

by Colleen McCullough

Chapter Overview and Summaries

Part III

Victories and Defeats - 39 BC to 37 BC

Section � 11

Antony has given Publius Ventidius the job of holding off the Parthians, led by Pacorus, the son of the king, and Quintus Labienus, one of the Liberators, who fled to Parthia after Philippi. Ventidius was a valued lieutenant to Caesar and proved himself in the field of battle. Assuming the Parthians will use horse archers, who can shoot arrows while retreating as well as while advancing, he trains a lot of slingers, who use slingshots to launch stones at the enemy. To make these weapons even more effective, he has small lead pellets made to use instead of stones.

Ventidius is chagrined to find that the Parthians are using cataphracts instead, heavily armored horses and riders. However, his men are able to defeat them by charging into the lines of riders and slashing at the horses� legs and at the riders. Also the lead pellets can penetrate the Parthian mail and kill the riders.

Quintus Dellius comes with a message from Antony and isn’t treated with the deference he expects, thus vows to get back at Ventidius.

Ventidius soundly defeats the Parthians, driving them from Syria, and later gets word that Labienus was put to death in Cyprus. The ten thousand silver talents Ventidius captured as spoils of war are being sent to Rome’s treasury and he expects a triumph when he returns to Rome.

Section � 12

Antony is now in Athens and meets with Atticus, a wealthy Roman who’s great friends with Cicero. Antony is furious that Ventidius actually defeated the Parthians, since he was supposed to only hold them off for Antony to get credit for finishing them off (and he was hoping to keep the spoils for himself). Atticus scolds Antony for procrastinating, when he could be done with Octavian and Sextus Pompey both.

Dellius tells Antony that the reason Ventidius hasn’t taken the city of Samosata, which he’s besieging, is that he’s taken a bribe from Antiochus of Commagene. He claims to know this because a friend of his is in the Sixth legion with Ventidius. When Antony declares he’s going there to confront Ventidius, Dellius fakes a seizure so he won’t have to go and be unmasked as a liar. Upon arriving at Samosata, Antony finds that Ventidius has already captured the city. Not only that, but the Sixth legion hasn’t been there for ages. Obviously Dellius made up the whole story. Ventidius is furious that Antony believed him and quits his generalship, only wanting to get back to his mule farm once his triumph is done.

I really liked Ventidius. What a difficult childhood he had! But he made himself into a successful muleteer and soldier. I don't blame him for going ahead against the Parthians instead of waiting around for Antony to get up off his behind and do something. And what a snake Dellius is! Let's hope he gets his comeuppance.

I too thought Ventidius a good egg. Very telling about Antony's leadership abilities. While Octavian seems to surround himself with people who are smarter and more skilled than he, Antony runs those people off in favor of people he can cow and control.

Antony only seems to have hangers-on, not real friends whose advice he's willing to take. It's all part of his sense of entitlement, believing he should have been Caesar's heir, for instance. And he doesn't seem to think of what's best for Rome, only what's best for him, and then he doesn't even really act in his own self-interest. McCullough has never seemed to like Antony in all of the books so far. Wonder if he was really this bad.

Does anyone portray Antony sympathetically in a book or story? It might be an interesting exercise to compare the two images of the character. Writers always approach characters with a certain bias. I suspect somewhere between good-bias and bad-bias is truth.

McCullough is not using maps in this book, mores the pity. I would have liked to see the progress of Ventidius. I am also curious about 'winter camps' Did they just take over Antioch, for example?

I know this is fiction, but I have nothing but contempt for Antony up to this point, especially compared to Ventidius and Octavian.

G, I really am with you about the maps. The other books had such great ones, and I think McCullough drew them herself. Maybe she's just not up to it these days.

Andra wrote: "Does anyone portray Antony sympathetically in a book or story? It might be an interesting exercise to compare the two images of the character. Writers always approach characters with a certain bias..."

I'd love to read a good book with Antony as the hero. It's interesting to see different viewpoints on the same events. Maybe someone here can suggest one.

I liked Ventidius too. I would have liked to see him go after Dellius, instead of just quit and walk away. And for Anthony to be a braun, strong man,pumping wine barrels on deck of the ship showing off, he sure did sit and cry in his wine.