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Welcome!! Feel free to introduce yourself below, and list a few of your favorite feminist sci-fi books or authors.

Excited about this group! :D Thanks for the invitation Stephanie! I have been really in the mood for discussing feminist sci-fi these past few months and I think this is a good opportunity to do so (and also to keep on reading!).

Hi all, I am mostly familiar with the works of Ursula Le Guin and James Tiptree Jr, as well as with most James Tiptree Jr Award-winning authors. I must admit that Le Guin's 'The Dispossessed' has become, ever since I read it, my absolutely favourite book of all time(s).

...but maybe there's another as favourite waiting out there!

Looking forward to meeting everyone :)

Hi Pippi!!!! Thanks for joining, I'm looking forward to talking about all these awesome books, Dispossessed is one of my all time favorites too. Ursula's Lathe of Heaven and The Word for World is Forest are also up there. And James Tiptree Jr...... MAD LOVE.

Hi everyone! I'm new here to GR so I don't know anyone yet. But I saw this group & thought it would be fun to join. I'm a big fan of sci-fi & I find the topic of feminist very interesting. I can't say I've ever seeked it out before so I don't have a favorite yet. One of the books I'm currently reading "Pump Six" by Paolo Bacigalupi brings up a few of women's issues. Not sure if that qualifies....But we all have to start somewhere right? Anyway I look forward to reading & discussing these works with everyone!

Hello, I thought this group was a wonderful idea. Thank you Stephanie for the invite. I am and always will be a feminist so right off this group appealed. I am relatively new to SciFi but what I have read I thoroughly enjoyed. Looking forward to expanding my SciFi library with wonderful selections with a feminist twist. Excited about future selections and discussions, great way to connect with new people. Thx again Stephanie.

Thanks Stephanie! So hard to pick favorites! Definitely Ursula K. Le Guin, both The Dispossessed and The Left Hand of Darkness. Marge Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time. Sheri S. Tepper's The Gate to Women's Country. And then there are so many more that I haven't read yet.

HI everyone!!!! I'm sort of surprised so many people are interested, but very happily surprised. This is going to be fun!

Sierra, welcome to GR! How is Pump Six? I read Paolo Bacigalupi's Wind Up Girl and kind of hated it (lol). I felt his characterization of Emiko was an attempt at bringing attention to women's issues, but in writing about her experiences the way he did he ended up really glorifying the violence she endured which was pretty gruesome. His world building was good though, and I'd be open to reading his other works. Sometimes you have to be pissed off by something to realize where you stand, and it ended up pushing me to seek out sci-fi that was more inclusive of women in positive ways.... and now here we are!

Mal thanks for joining!! I only got into sci-fi recently as well (my ex-husband is a huge sci-fi-guy so I blame him) but for me it was like slipping into a warm bath, and I haven't looked back.

Alexa! Yes to all those books, though I still need to read Gate to Women's Country. It was (along with Beauty) on Pippi's Gender in Fantasy and Sci-Fi reading list () and Tepper was the only author I didn't get to - I read the rest and there are so many good ones :)

There's a whole lot of modern SF which is casually feminist if you define feminist SF thus: "Feminist Sci-Fi poses questions about gender roles, sexuality, reproduction, and power structures between men and women."
This description on the other hand is more typical of a bygone era when most of the works dealing with such issues only did so because that was what the work was about: "Sci-Fi allows authors the freedom to create utopias illustrating worlds free of sexism, homophobia and prejudice, as well as dystopias where the gender divide is exaggerated in order to open a dialogue regarding the role of social constructs in understanding gender."
This is rather limiting I think. Casually feminist SF less commonly involves dystopias or utopias.

Here's for instance a imaginary world in which marriages remained unequal even though the inequality ceased to be gendered: /book/show/1...
This and other forms of inequality are a major theme of the story. The ways both males and females deal with it are explored. Does that (and interesting female characters) make it a feminist story?

Lots of male authors deal with such themes as a matter of course as well.
This is one way in which SF differs from mainstream fantasy. A reasoned tratment of these themes kind of goes with the territory. How realistic is a future society in which traditional gender roles persist really?
When Gren Egan writes an anthropological post-human gender-bending story (Oceanic) in the vein of LeGuin et al. for instance, it's not about gender. It's about a popular form of Christianity. But it simply makes sense not to reproduce current-day gender roles or physiology.
Another well-known example might be Ian MacLeod's Breathmoss. Saying what it's about would amount to a spoiler though.
Which is of course not to say that stories which aren't in the same vein do not deal with issues one might describe as feminist!

Outis, yes the selections thus far are predominantly 'classics' of the feminist sci-fi era, and I think it would be great to read new sci-fi that is casually feminist as well because the classics are a narrow focus indeed. Sub-genre of a sub-genre. Because of the nature of sci-fi being alternative universes and different social structures it makes it easy to view a wide variety of titles (including the not-so-obvious) through a feminist lens. I figured a good place to start with feminist sci-fi was with the classics, where the stories rely heavily on a feminist storyline and are from the era where feminist sci-fi made it's first boom.
Do you have any other suggestions for new sci-fi titles that can be viewed as feminist? Thanks for commenting!

The thing is, from my perspective the definition of feminist is kind of contentious. Therefore erring on the side of caution would lead me to adopt a broad definition.
If you use a broad enough definition, you can't be progressive without being feminist on some level nowadays. And SF isn't known for being conservative...
So I feel like I could spend an unreasonable amount of time suggesting an unreasonable amount of titles that can be viewed as (partially) feminist.
The three above are merely the titles I happened to think about first when grasping for titles which could I illustrate what I was saying.
Maybe I could provide suggestions if I had a better idea of whatever it is you (or others) are looking for exactly.

In the meantime, this is obvious but it just struck me: Butler's Bloodchild.
Not quite modern in the sense I used the word. But modern enough to contrast with classics I think. Yet a classic because it's such a landmark.

But if you want to contrast classic and modern, I would suggest a good way to do that might be to read modern works by classic authors who have evolved over time.
Like, LeGuin came to write stuff that's more confronting as well as more subtle and which would I suspect have been unpublishable back in the day.

This group seems right up my alley. My favourite novel period is A Door into Ocean, I also really enjoyed LeGuin's Hannish cycle (though I still haven't read Left Hand yet), The Handmaid's Tale and Slow River.

Some less obvious feminish sci-fi I've enjoyed include The Stepford Wives, Give Me Liberty, and Venus Plus X (all three by male authors but still pretty worthwhile).

Liz: I loved a Door into Ocean as well. Have you read the sequel, Daughter of Elysium? Handmaid's Tale and Slow River are both awesome as well. I haven't read any of the last three titles, they look interesting :)

Outis: I'm definitely interested in discussing an author's early works vs their later works, the evolution could be really interesting. And I'm a huge fan of Octavia Butler, Bloodchild being the only one I haven't read yet! I'll add it to the group reads.

Hi, I'm KOMET. I was introduced to the Group by a ŷ������ friend of mine in California.

Besides Octavia Butler (I highly recommend Wild Seed and Mind of My Mind), I am just getting into the works of Elizabeth Moon. Has anyone in the Group read any of her novels, and if so, what did you think of them?

Hi KOMET! THanks for joining! I hadn't heard of Elizabeth Moon but just searched her books and they look great! Has anyone else read them?

Also if anyone is interested, we just started reading Seed to Harvest in FABClub, feel free to join the discussion (/group/show/...)

For what that's worth, I recommend reading Seed to Harvest in the order in which it was written (starting with Patternmaster).

Stephanie wrote: "Bloodchild being the only one I haven't read yet! I'll add it to the group reads."
I meant the story, not the book.

I agree about reading them in order. Patternmaster (1976), Mind of My Mind (1977), Survivor (1978), Wild Seed (1980) and Clay's Ark (1984). I haven't looked yet at the order they are printed in the 2007 compilation.

Bloodchild is published in a collection of Octavia's short stories, it would be nice to read all the stories, but Bloodchild is definitely the one that's most exciting (not to discredit the rest, I'm sure they're great as well)

Which Patternmaster was your favourite?

Mind of my mind, easily.
My main reservation would be the casual essentialism (a general problem with her work).

Bloodchild is also the one which is the most on-topic here (as far as I can remember anyway).

Funny you mention the essentialism, I have noticed that with her work as well. But I still love her writing :)

"A good chunk of writing is trying to manipulate your reader’s emotions �� yeah, I said it" - N. K. Jemisin
Butler was a master.

So which one's your favorite?

The first of Octavia's works I read was the Lilith's Brood collection and it's still my favourite. The world building was great, and I loved the development of the aliens. If I had to get specific, Dawn was my favourite of the trilogy.

Hello!

I have put together an anthology of early feminist science fiction that I thought you might be interested in. Ten novels/novellas and two appenices

Here’s its ŷ������ page:

/book/show/1...

I find this to be a very fascinating subgenre. Most don’t realize how long it has been around either, going back to the 17th century.

Oh wow that looks great!! Thanks for sharing!

Thanks Stephanie!

Just joined the group. I don't know to what extent my reading tastes fall into feminist SF. I enjoy Bultler and LeGuin, as others have mentioned. I loved Elizabeth Moon 's Vatta series. My current favorite authors are Tanya Huff (Valor series) and Karen Travvis (Matriarch series).

Just joined this group as I am trying to expand my repertoire of both female sci-fi writers and feminist authors. I have been participating in a discussion over at the SciFi and Fantasy Book Club about sexism in science fiction, and how to avoid it, and then I see this group is jumping right to the punchline. Bravo!

I am truly behind as I grew up on classic white male authors like Isaac Asimov and Frank Herbert, but I have been gradually catching up and do have some favorite female sci-fi writers, not sure if all of them call themselves feminist: Anne McCaffrey, Nancy Kress, C.S. Friedman, Octavia E. Butler, and Joan D. Vinge. Also loved The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell.

Hi Michael and welcome to the group! There are certainly a lot of white male authors writing amazing sci-fi; I'm glad you are excited about the idea of focusing on the talented women of the sci-fi world. Butler and Vinge are great, are you familiar with Ursula le Guin?

Stephanie wrote: "... are you familiar with Ursula le Guin? "

You know, it's funny, I've always considered Ursula K. Le Guin fantasy because I've only read some of the Earthsea books, and I'm really not much of a fantasy fan, though sometimes I dabble. But now I see about half of her books on ŷ������ are classified as science fiction. She was an author I was going to try again, but now that I know about her science fiction side, I am even more motivated. Thanks for pointing me in her direction!

Ursula does have a fair bit of fantasy (like Earthsea) but she has written some of the best sci-fi as well! Word for World is Forest and Lathe of Heaven are great, and of course the Dispossessed and Left Hand of Darkness are classics. Definitely check them out!

I'm delighted to see some activity on this group.
I write science fiction which explores gender issues. My current work in progress is The Stud and the Sperm Thief which takes place on planet which has a 3/1 ratio of women to men. This imbalance is because men fish and die in fishing accidents. As a result the culture gives better education to women and the society is matriarchal.
The Stud and the Sperm Thief is about a man deemed to have desirable genetics who get railroaded into be a stud for hire.
I don't give myself the label of "feminist" because I'm for human freedom and self-determination regardless of gender. calling ourselves feminists relegates men to the position of feminist auxiliary instead of as people struggling for their own right to self-determination, to take on roles traditionally assigned to women if they so wish. I wish there were a better label than "feminist."

Calling yourselves feminists doesn't necessarily relegate men to any position.
Feminism has never been about denying men the opportunity to organize around men's issues. Just like some women side with anti-feminists and are happy being auxiliaries, some men have no issues being auxiliaries. In order to have a genuine democracy, everybody needs to be willing to be an auxiliary to other people's issues anyway.

Feminism has helped men's self-determination and will continue to do so.
In order for men to be to be able to take on roles traditionally assigned to women and previously denied to them, women needed to to be able to take on roles previously denied to them as well. You can't be a stay-at-home dad if your wife isn't paid a good bit more than woman traditionally were for instance.

One-word labels tend to be confusing but if you feel "I'm for human freedom and self-determination" is too wordy, I'd abbreviate it to "progressive" or "revolutionary" depending on your politics. But that's just me.
There are alternatives such as "libertarian" but they have a lot of baggage as well and I think they're even more likely to be misunderstood by English speakers nowadays.

Yes, but I don't think it is just about letting women do men's work and men do women's work. The problem is that women's work is devalued. Women's jobs traditionally pay much less than men's jobs, or they don't pay at all. Women have been prevented from taking jobs that would give them access to more resources. There have always been single fathers. There have not always been female senators. The reason I don't call it humanism is because it is not everyone oppressing everyone, it is men as a class oppressing women as a class.

Men as a "class" (my dictionary defines the word in a way which doesn't make men in general a class but whatever) aren't oppressing women. There is simply no way for them do so.
This stuff obscures the actual mechanisms of domination, which is why it is being fostered by certain parties.

Outis wrote: "Men as a "class" (my dictionary defines the word in a way which doesn't make men in general a class but whatever) aren't oppressing women. There is simply no way for them do so.
This stuff obscures..."

I had to double-check my usage, but in my own readings on feminism this phrase is fairly common. I found a familiar definition on :

"Like the liberal feminist school of thought, radical or dominant feminism focuses on inequality. It asserts that men, as a class, have dominated women as a class, creating gender inequality."

So maybe this is just a radical vs liberal ideological difference? I can see that it may be more accurate to say that men as a class benefit from patriarchy. For example, the states:

"Male privilege is a set of privileges that are given to men as a class due to their institutional power in relation to women as a class. While every man experiences privilege differently due to his own individual position in the social hierarchy, every man, by virtue of being read as male by society, benefits from male privilege."

I realize there are a lot of different opinions on the mechanics and definitions.

You talked about obscuring the mechanisms of domination. Can you give me a reading reference to study? I'm always open to learning more about this.

Outis wrote: "Calling yourselves feminists doesn't necessarily relegate men to any position.
Feminism has never been about denying men the opportunity to organize around men's issues. Just like some women side w..."
Foe me the label feminist is inaccurate and misleading. So I don't object to the label but don't use it for my own position regarding gender equality.
from what I've seen some women benefit from patriarchy which oppresses both men and women. Patriarchy meaning rule by fathers, either biological fathers but more often rule by men in positions of power. So the Catholic Church is a patriarchy even though it's controlled by celibate men. Patriarchy then is rule by a few men, male oligarchy, and it can
be more oppressive of men than of women.

It devalues men's lives and health, by putting them in the military or in dangerous jobs. Often this is achieved by giving higher pay for these job and the safe jobs are reserved for women. A man might want to take a safe job but he can't without taking a pay cut.

The money and adulation we give to men may be societies way convincing them to put their lives and health on the line. So equality is not just paying more for safe(women's)work but making all work safe.
But the there are some anomalies with this theory. Engineering is safe and considered men's work. Nursing and special education are dangerous and considered women's work.

In the case of the military I believe we can best support equality by recognizing the high cost of warfare in terms of life and health and so seeking alternative conflict resolution methods. We shouldn't use young men, or young women, as cannon fodder.

So you can see I'm not a feminist. I seek rights for all people not just for women oppressed by men.
The label I like for myself is science fiction writer.

Lizzie wrote: "So you can see I'm not a feminist."
I respect your decision not to label yourself a feminist but I couldn't have guessed from what you just stated.
There are people who are saying basically the same thing (except perhaps for the "adulation" thing which may be specific to some cultures) and who label themselves as feminist.


Michael wrote: "So maybe this is just a radical vs liberal ideological difference?"
The ideological difference is off that rather narrow map.

Michael wrote: "You talked about obscuring the mechanisms of domination. Can you give me a reading reference to study? I'm always open to learning more about this."
I'm not sure reading would help. It would be fighting fire with fire. Just think (if you care to).
By the virtue of being actual, you don't need to read about the actual mechanisms of domination to know about them. I'm not talking about invisible hands, metaphorical institutions and whatnot.
And I don't think you need to read to understand how magical explanations function as a smokescreen.

Or if you really enjoy overly abstract thinking, you could examine the assumptions underlying the theory according to which men as a group benefit from a collection of instances when a man is priviledged.
Specifically the one about how the benefit to that man outweighs the direct or indirect consequences suffered by other men.
And you could go on to the assumptions required for a subset of men to benefit.
Again, no reading required.

That being said, considering the topic of the group and that you stated you are unfamiliar with the LeGuin's breadth of expression, I would be remiss not to suggest A Woman's Liberation which obliquely touches on this topic or indeed the whole of Four Ways for context (for completists: there's at least a fifth story involvoing the same events and characters that I'm aware of).

Outis wrote: The ideological difference is off that rather narrow map."

I don't understand that sentence. Can you elaborate?

Outis wrote: "Michael wrote: "You talked about obscuring the mechanisms of domination. Can you give me a reading reference to study? I'm always open to learning more about this."
I'm not sure reading would help..."

Thank you for the reading suggestions. I had started a reply, but then I felt like I was derailing a thread for "Introductions", and that maybe it would be more appropriate for me to start a "Discussions" thread. Can anyone do that? Would that be more appropriate?

Ah yes, I have started a discussions thread for chit chat not related to books but related to the group. Good idea!

Don't you already have a discussion section for that? -

/topic/group...

I was thinking of a new thread like Outis had done with gender-neutral pronouns. Maybe something like "women as a class, men as a class"...

Ack! That section didn't show up on my phone... I've made the change. On a semi-related note, does anyone else find that the ŷ������ app is ridiculously limited when it comes to groups and group activity?

Also, feel free to start discussion threads if/when you like! I'm happy to see activity on this group. :)))

To answer Michael's question, I'm nobody. If I can do something, anybody can. I only happen to be a random loudmouth Stephanie tolerates.
Also, Stephanie may move/fix/cancel anything you do. So you can simply go ahead and make mistakes (as I did).

As to the other thing, I was intentionally vague so as to avoid engaging in what I perceive as sterile discussion but briefly, here's a broader map:
Institutions such as Cornell aren't disinterested parties when it comes to priviledge by the way.

Lizzie wrote: "I'm delighted to see some activity on this group.
I write science fiction which explores gender issues. My current work in progress is The Stud and the Sperm Thief which takes place on planet whic..."

Hi Lizzie! A belated 'Welcome aboard'! I, too, respect your choice not to identify under the 'feminist' label. At times I find myself a bit curious why anyone would not consider themselves feminist, given the additional struggle women endure over that of men which has been well documented, but I recognize that it's the label itself that can turn people off. No doubt humans in general have battles to fight for their own rights, and I'm certainly not in the camp that dislikes men or wants to see them suffer so women can succeed (if men treating women as less than themselves is inappropriate, then how is it appropriate to invert that system?), but women have certainly had a more uphill battle when it comes to gender rights due to restrictions placed by men/patriarchy. I do agree with what you said, though, about the patriarchy representing a select number of men and not ALL men.

That being said, the label 'feminist' does carry a lot of stigma, and as Outis commented, one-word labels do tend to be confusing because they put everyone using them under the same umbrella when in fact there are a large number of variations in belief - feminism in particular has so many issues that can clash, resulting in a lot of fighting within the movement - so it would seem to make sense to break the label down further so those using it could declare more specifically what their belief structure is. But that could also get very complicated and confusing. I think our task is to make feminism what we want it to be for ourselves, and communicate that to others in order to alter the stereotype.

I, personally, am supportive of however individuals choose to label or not label themselves.

Anyways, I'm glad you have joined the group and introduced yourself!! Your novel sounds very interesting, and (I looked at your website) the world building looks intense! Do you have published works that are available? Is your current work nearing completion?

Oi, here we go:

Feminism
General

Anarcha-feminism
Cultural feminism
Ecofeminism
Feminism
Individualist feminism
Lesbian feminism
Liberal feminism
Marxist feminism
Masculism
Postmodern feminism
Psychoanalytic feminism
Radical feminism
Separatist feminism
Socialist feminism
Womanism

Religious feminism

Religious feminism
Christian feminism
Islamic feminism
Jewish feminism


I suppose it's up to us to find where we fall on this list... if at all. I've got some reading to do haha

If the feminism section is the one which is of interest to you, this might be a better overview:
It should be immediately obvious the article is very biased but then so is almost anything you can read, especially if you can only read a single language.

Thanks for the link!

I am a feminist but then I am also a masculinist, if there is such a word. Sure I'm for women's rights but I'm also for men's right. I'm for gender equality regardless of male, female, transgender, or intergender labels.I'm lumping here not splitting.

I've got six manuscripts written but none published. I've also got some short stories which I intend to send out. Lightspeed Magazine is putting out an issue entitled "Women Destroy SF" I hope I don't jinx myself saying that I intend to submit a story. If only I can decide which one. I've written about a dozen short stories, none published. I've got a lot to choose from.

Masculism is a thing, focusing on the rights and needs of men. I think there are aspects of this line of thinking that also focus on males as superior and actively exclude women. Too bad the word Humanist is already being used, it might apply here! It's all semantics anyways, you believe what you believe and that's all that matters :)

Good luck with Lightspeed Magazine!!

Thanks for the links, comments, and assistance Stephanie/Outis. I have not used the ŷ������ app, Stephanie, but you are not the first I have heard complain about its functionality, if that makes you feel any better...

Wow, that is a big list of feminisms. I hadn't really thought about it in that way before, but it helps explain a lot of the internal conflicts I've seen in the movement over the years.

Hi everyone! I am grateful for discovering ŷ������! Such great exposure. I am a 32 year old chick living in Manhattan and I’ve written two books, NOTHING like one another. One is a YA dystopian novel about a girl who is born into the Illuminati, but is unable to be programmed or brainwashed. She therefore is an outcast among the “Others�� (everyone else other than the Illuminati) and her own cult. She grows to see how evil a conspiracy she was born into and quests on a search for her mother who ran away when she was little, and answers. Only 99 cents, give it a shot!




My other novel is an adult fiction work, based on my real life high school bullying experiences (hence the similarities in the name). Listina is an angry bitter alcoholic who is barely functioning and stumbles upon diaries that she knows she is afraid to read. She does, after hitting rock bottom, she knows her spiral downward is going to kill her. She relives every humiliating memory one by one, being bullied by her own friends as well as other girls. Here are links to my social media below. Enjoy!

Hullo

I'm a huge fan of Science Fiction - which made me very odd (Country town, teenage girl hauling around huge amounts of Science Fiction in the early eighties, and I so hated the "Isn't that supposed to be for boys?" comments I got, but I have to say the Librarians on the mobile library that serviced our town, got a great collection of authors in for me....).

I'm from Australia - not sure if there is anyone else here who is also located here...anyway...I'm rambling...

My favourite Authors who would most likely fit this group include:

Le Guin (I had an English Teacher who taught her for my final year of High School - this was like nirvana for me.....);
Atwood (Handmaid's Tale made a huge impression on me);
Butler (She's amazing, awesome, and I was really impressed you're reading Bloodchild next;
Ann Leckie (just read Ancillary Justice and was blown away by it, it's really very exciting to read....)
Vinge (I have collected her books wherever I could find them),
Tepper (always thought provoking),
Cherryh (I love her Downbelow Station)

I've probably forgotten some, and I'm always looking for more suggestions....

Looking forward to hearing from you,
Cheers
Jaq

You've assembled a great list! "Isn't that supposed to be for boys?" is so utterly appalling! I'm so glad no one ever had the nerve to say that to me! I would add Marge Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time to your definitive list. I just also read Ancillary Justice and LOVED it. I finished it thinking, this is exactly the sort of book I love, why is it so hard to find books like this (and why do I waste so much time reading books that just don't measure up?).