Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

I am a fan. I am a huge fan, OF THIS SERIES. Who cares if I haven't read the books? No one did until you brought it up. I think you're just being overprotective of what you love and think if someone is going to love it too the need to read the books. Yes?

To be honest, Todd, he does have a point, you know?
It's not that he is trying to be overprotective of the series so much as he was willing to debate the theory with you, but then you said you never had (nor planned to) read the books, and in my opinion, you couldn't be taken seriously for a discussion of such a deep theory.

Please, try to understand that we're not being mean to you, it's just that when you present a theory (yours or not), asking people what's their thoughts on it, you're supposed to discuss with them your points, your views and how you got to that conclusion. That's what a "discussion" is supposed to be.

So yeah, believe me when I say that no one is trying to "troll you around". It's just that this discussion has been debated so often, it seems that anyone who brings it up again might be able to explore a different view, and that's always something we, avid readers, need (not want, really) to focus on, more so because of the long wait between the books' release dates.

Either way, I do advise you to try and read the books, even though from what I could see, you wouldn't be persuaded to actually read a series so complex. I don't think it matches your profile, which really is too bad, for this is the best series I've ever read... and believe me when I tell you that I've read A LOT. :P

Anyways, I apologize for any mispells or typos. This is not my native language, and I still kind of struggle with it sometimes. I also apologize for making this comment so long, but it couldn't be helped. xD

See ya~

Yeah okay. No more of this.

Todd wrote: "Yeah okay. No more of this."

Actually, this about you lying Todd. You claimed this was all your theory, which made it seem like you had read the books and were familiar with the deeper plot. But as you demonstrated, you're not. You got that idea from your friend, who actually read the books and knows what going on. You wanna enjoy the show, no one's stopping you. But don't misrepresent yourself. And don't throw a tantrum at me or anyone else simply because you came off looking like a fool.

Can't you just be an adult Matthew and drop this? You're basically telling me the same thing over and over again. Leave it alone.

The TV-series isn't just based on the books, it covers almost everything written in them. You could just as well have this theory based on the show as well as the books.

Marte, you could not.

Since they do not have the internal dialogues, which are essential to the understanding of Jon Snow's speculated parentage, the show do NOT cover almost everything in the books.

But that's just beside the point right now, since Todd can't even... whatever. I'm out of this discussion, and I advise you all to do the same.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not angry at all. Just curious as to what you wanted to get out of the discussion if you haven't read the books. It's really not that big of a deal to me personally. There are some interesting theories on here but I'm a little baffled that you yourself can't join in the conversation anymore. If it were me, I'd want to join in.

Jeff, I just don't get why you are so angry? And you don't need the internal dialogues to question Jon's birth. I've read the books, but even so, I can easily see how one can come up with this theory from just watching the show.

Marte wrote: "And you don't need the internal dialogues to question Jon's birth. I've read the books, but even so, I can easily see how one can come up with this theory from just watching the show."

I really don’t see how anyone could have come up with the theory if they just saw the show. In the show, Jon’s parentage is not a mystery at all. Ned is stated to be his father, and he tells Robert that Jon’s mother is a woman named Wylla. This happens in the first couple of episodes, and in the three seasons since then, the issue has never been raised again. In the books, it’s an ongoing mystery, since the topic is discussed over and over again, and different people believe that different women are Jon’s mother, so there's obviously something fishy going on.

Also, Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark are important characters in the book, though they have been dead for years before the story begins. Other people who knew them or loved them think about them and talk about them constantly. On the other hand, they are barely mentioned on the show.

But most importantly, Ned’s dream about the Tower of Joy and his promise to the dying Lyanna, which forms the foundation for the R+L=J theory is not shown or mentioned in the show at all. Without that information, it’s extremely hard to see why anyone would connect those dots at all.

I totally agree with Mitali, and I have a suggestion: lets:
1. Discuss Jon's parentage theory; and
2. Drop the discussion about Todd's lie.

It is not a valuable waste of out time to discuss whether someone could come up with this theory from the TV show, and worst of all: Todd never said he did. He stated that it's his friend's theory.
Lets forget it.

Isaac wrote: "I totally agree with Mitali, and I have a suggestion: lets:
1. Discuss Jon's parentage theory; and
2. Drop the discussion about Todd's lie.

It is not a valuable waste of out time to discuss whethe..."

Well, I guess the riddle is solved, although I thought, Jon would be related to Lysa (Hoster Tully's weird talking when he was dying, about Tansy and Lysa and the bastard....)

Marte, I'm not angry at all.
Although I am frustrated that you fail to see, or rather, ignore, my point.

Either way, Mitali has summed it up perfectly, so if you don't agree with that argument now, I'm sure you will never do. Either because you're being stubborn or ignorant, which isn't helpful in either way.

@Isaac: Let's.

@Carolin: I believe the bastard mentioned by Hoster Tully might be one of Robert's, maybe? You know, since Jon Arryn was so obsessed with the subject, he might've mentioned to his father-in-law. At least that's my take on it. What do you think?

It's very possible that Jon Snow is a Targaryen. It would not be surprising!

Jeff wrote: "@Carolin: I believe the bastard mentioned by Hoster Tully might be one of Robert's, maybe? You know, since Jon Arryn was so obsessed with the subject, he might've mentioned to his father-in-law. At least that's my take on it. What do you think?
"

I won't spoiler but this has nothing to do with Jon or Robert.... ;)

I will try to re-read, just so I can have a new perspective on it. Truth is, I don't quite remember the reference...

Also, I forgot an "it" on my previous comment. :X

Anyways, could you (Carolyn) pm me about that? I need some spoilers, tbh. :D

Carolin, comment here about the spoilers hiding them: just write spoiler between these: < > and they'll be hidden, so everyone can talk about them!

(view spoiler)[
Like this! (hide spoiler)]

Descent theory, definitely can't knock it. I also can't come up with much of a counter-argument. It makes a lot of sense. The only thing that puts me off about that is Catylan's irrational hatred for Jon Snow. However, there could be other motivations behind this, such as her hating the Targaryens. But you're right, Ned just never seemed like that kind of guy to me and I was always put off by that.

Catelyn's hatred towards Jon puts you off? Really?

Eddard lied to her. He said Jon was his son. So her hatred is quite understandable, really. I mean, every woman hates being cheated on.

And I agree with you. What validates this theory the most, in my opinion, is the fact that Eddard was so damn honorable, so he would never do something so unlike his character.

Catelyn hates Jon because he is the walking result of what she belives to be Ned's dishonor.
Eddard is known for being an honored man, and yet (so far as people know) he cheated on her, generating a bastard child, and it's not like the child is distant, like she could pretend he doesn't exist. He is right there, playing with her kids, living under her roof. It's as if he is always provoking her, just by being there. Cat can't ignore him, it is very reasonable for her to hate him.

But Ned warns Cat to never ask him about Jon, and says: "he's my blood, and that's all you need to know". And he is evasive about Jon's mother even with his best friend Robert. I believe "my blood" means Jon is Lyanna's son.

PS: At this point, when this theory is highly accepted , I think it is possible that GRRM will reveal the thuth to be something else, although I can't see any other explanation as good as this one.

I agree with you, Isaac. I think if it were Ned's son and that's it, no question then he would have said something more like, "He's my son and that's all you need to know." Instead he said blood. In my opinion that validates the theory that he's Lyanna's.

Love it! haha

Matthew wrote: "Todd wrote: "I just don't get how I made this discussion and all, and lots of people started to comment and put in their thoughts. Then like ages later, someone started having a go at me. I mean wh..."

Dangit, now I have to RTFT!!!! Boo! Hiss!

Carolin wrote: "I won't spoiler but this has nothing to do with Jon or Robert.... ;) "

Thank you, I was all "srslah?"

Again, I agree with you, Isaac.

Thoughts will be added here later... too sleepy right now for any coherent text. xD

I personally believe that that theory might very well be true. There is certainly a goodly amount of evidence backing it as other people in this discussion have summarized.
Though with GRM you can never be too sure.

Todd wrote: "Can't you just be an adult Matthew and drop this? You're basically telling me the same thing over and over again. Leave it alone."

You're in no position to talk about being an adult, Todd. You started this thing based on pretense and have reacted childishly whenever people began asking you the obvious questions - like why did you pretend this was your theory and how can you contribute if you haven't even read the books?

If you want to show some maturity, leave this thread that you started and let the people who actually know what they are talking about do their thing. You are basically superfluous at this point.

Matthew wrote: "Todd wrote: "Can't you just be an adult Matthew and drop this? You're basically telling me the same thing over and over again. Leave it alone."

You're in no position to talk about being an adult, ..."

Two peas in a pod, Matthew, two peas in a pod.

Jon wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Todd wrote: "Can't you just be an adult Matthew and drop this? You're basically telling me the same thing over and over again. Leave it alone."

You're in no position to talk about ..."

Who? Todd and I, or you and me?

Jon's parents ARE Robert and Cersei (remember her speech about the black-haired baby she lost?-although that may have been the show, not the book). Or his parents are Robert and Lyanna. Benioff and Weiss said they guessed who Jon's mother was, and GRRM told them they were right, so...

S wrote: "Jon's parents ARE Robert and Cersei (remember her speech about the black-haired baby she lost?-although that may have been the show, not the book). Or his parents are Robert and Lyanna. Benioff and..."

Who are Benioff and Weiss? And did they share your theories here? I ask because there's simply no way they are correct. Jon Snow was born before Robert and Cersei were even betrothed. And Lyanna and Robert never consummated their marriage, as far as I know, because she ran off with Rhaegar. And even if the timelines worked out, it makes no sense. Why would Ned steal Robert's own son away from him and keep his true lineage a secret?

Todd wrote: "Now, this is all my theory. You can keep all your hate to yourselves if you feel that way towards it, but please share your thoughts.

Jon Snow is not Ned Stark's bastard. Ned's sister Lyanna who h..."
You version is very intereting and i think it have right to life. But why neither character don`t know about it? albeit...maybe Ned wanted saving Jons` life

Matthew wrote: "S wrote: "Jon's parents ARE Robert and Cersei (remember her speech about the black-haired baby she lost?-although that may have been the show, not the book). Or his parents are Robert and Lyanna. B..."

Benioff and Weiss are the writers/producers of the show GAME OF THRONES. However, they have never said publicly who Jon;s mother is. My theories were simply (crazy?) guesses.

Todd wrote: "I just don't get how I made this discussion and all, and lots of people started to comment and put in their thoughts. Then like ages later, someone started having a go at me. I mean why now? I don'..."

You just stepped on a land mine, that's all. Commenting on A Song of Ice and Fire is a delicate operation.

Here's a fact: I have read all the published books and I still can't keep up with Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ fans when they start discussing this series. It's very dense with details, and you can get lost anywhere. I usually just read what everybody else posts and keep my thoughts to myself.

For similar reasons, I can't blame you for not having read the books. It's heavy reading. And it can be very difficult to get into.

My advice to anybody commenting on A Song of Ice and Fire (or Lord of the Rings for that matter) is to just be honest about how much you've read and be humble with your opinions, keeping in mind that it is very likely that you missed something. These are very heavy reading and the people who are sharp enough to keep track of it all can intellectually tear the rest of us to shreds. If you try to sound smarter than you are, they will catch you.

That you had enough interest in the series to start this post says that you would probably enjoy the book if you can just get into it. So perhaps you keep watching the series, research your questions on http://awoiaf.westeros.org/ first, and then post your questions on these forums. If doing this, be honest about what you've read, and humble in asking your question. Understand that it can be very difficult to explain what's going on to somebody that hasn't read the book, so be patient and hopefully everybody else will be patient with you.

A lot of people will give you shit for not reading the books. Just respond with "I tried; I couldn't get into it." (humble and honest). This is heavy reading, nobody rational can hold it against you if you at least tried.

And if people start getting mean, just change your notification settings so you don't get notified when people comment on the post.

S wrote: "Matthew wrote: "S wrote: "Jon's parents ARE Robert and Cersei (remember her speech about the black-haired baby she lost?-although that may have been the show, not the book). Or his parents are Robe..."

Yeah, I suspected as much. And they aren't crazy, it's just that there's no way that the timing of those theories could correspond to Jon Snow's actual birth, not to mention the motivation factor really isn't there. Really, the only explanation of Jon's ancestry, if we accept that he isn't in fact Ned's bastard, is that he is a Targaryen and Ned kept the truth of his ancestry a secret to protect his life.

We're still on this? Oh my god.

Todd wrote: "We're still on this? Oh my god."

What? We're discussing the theory you raised. Which is the point of this thread, isn't it? As for what Julia said, she just arrived late to the party, and was giving good advice of how to deal with others who might judge you over whether or not you've read he books. You should listen to what she says, dude, she's being helpful and addressing your main issue.

Todd wrote: "We're still on this? Oh my god."

Like I said, turn off notifications if you want to leave the conversation. This is an old conversation for you, but some of us are just now seeing it. That's just how Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ works.

It's also possible to delete your own posts. If you do that, then the conversation will have gaps in it and people will just get confused. It's kinda funny when that happens.

actually i think it is a awesome theory and i wish that later in the books it is exactly as you said but i am not sure.

Julia wrote: "Todd wrote: "We're still on this? Oh my god."

Like I said, turn off notifications if you want to leave the conversation. This is an old conversation for you, but some of us are just now seeing it..."

I meant with the whole me not reading the books thing. And I don't want to turn off my notifications, and I do know how goodreads works, I'm not stupid Julia.

Todd wrote: "I meant with the whole me not reading the books thing. And I don't want to turn off my notifications, and I do know how goodreads works, I'm not stupid Julia."

She wasn't saying you are stupid. She was simply saying that if you didn't want to read abuse, to turn off notifications. That's all. Like Matthew said, she'd just come to this discussion so she was commenting on how to maybe not let this happen in the future. Just some friendly advice. I think maybe you should take it as such and be done with it. I also think perhaps you like conflict? Just an observation. We're having an interesting conversation on the topic you brought up. There's nothing angry going on at this point. Maybe let's try to keep it that way? Discussions are much more fun when there isn't any anger in them.

Julia brought up a good point that there are a lot of things going on in these books. I read all of them and I still didn't catch on to this. :) Guess that shows how closely I read. I've declared this year the year of the re-read and hope to get to this series again. I'd like to be able to keep up and not be "torn to shreds" intellectually. Well put, Julia! Some of us who've read the series still get shredded! These are all really interesting to think about!

Kari wrote: "Todd wrote: "I meant with the whole me not reading the books thing. And I don't want to turn off my notifications, and I do know how goodreads works, I'm not stupid Julia."

She wasn't saying you a..."

I think his issue is more along the lines of him being insecure. Even though no one here has faulted him for not reading the books - mainly, we've given him heat for saying originally this was "all his" theory, which he later admitted it wasn't - he has consistently been defensive on this front.

I for one have consistently said this is about being misleading, but he doesn't seem to see that and thinks he's being given the screws for not reading any of the original material. It's like, who cares? Just don't lie.

Julia wrote: "Todd wrote: "I just don't get how I made this discussion and all, and lots of people started to comment and put in their thoughts. Then like ages later, someone started having a go at me. I mean wh..."

I read all the books twice and I still couldn't remember who Lyanna was. It really is one of the 2 or 3 greatest series of all time, but it is definitely overwhelming.

Mitali wrote: "Marte wrote: "And you don't need the internal dialogues to question Jon's birth. I've read the books, but even so, I can easily see how one can come up with this theory from just watching the show...."

Yes, but I suspect "Wylla" is a pseudonym.

S wrote: "Julia wrote: "Todd wrote: "I just don't get how I made this discussion and all, and lots of people started to comment and put in their thoughts. Then like ages later, someone started having a go at..."


Lyanna was Ned's sister, betrothed to Robert. Soon after she married him, Rhaegar Tergaryen (who possibly loved her) took her away (it is not clear whether she ran off with him or he kidnapped her, like Robert and Ned state). This is one of the reasons for Robert's rebellion, that ended only when he took the throne.
At the end of the civil war, Ned and 6 companions fought 3 knights of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, where Lyanna was being kept. Ned and Howland Reed survived the battle only to find Lyanna dying in a pool of blood. Ned than promises her something, on her deathbed. Keep in mind that this is all remembered by Ned Stark.
The theory discussed here is that Lyanna and Rhaegar actually loved each other and Jon Snow is their son, and so, a Targaryen, And also that Lyanna made Ned promise her he'd take care of the child so no harm would come to him. Ned than would have made up the story about him being his bastard, so no one would try to kill him in an attempt to end the Targaryen bloodline.

Wylla is a wet nurse at Starfall. Lord Edric Dayne tells Arya that Wylla is Jon's mother. During the first book, Robert asks Ned about the name of the girl Robert believes to be Jon's mother. Ned answers "Wylla", but we don't know if his answer is to the question "what is that girl's name?" or to the question "what is your bastard's mother name?".

Read more about that here:

Isaac wrote: "S wrote: "Julia wrote: "Todd wrote: "I just don't get how I made this discussion and all, and lots of people started to comment and put in their thoughts. Then like ages later, someone started havi..."

I have a used copy of the Blu-Ray for Season 1 of Game of Thrones , and there is an extra that lays out the whole backstory (Lyanna. etc) in chronological order. Only then did I really understand what happened before Game of Thrones begins.

Mitchell wrote: "i've also believed this for a while, and that jon will become a dragon rider, and with bran a skin-changer (promised he would fly by the 3-eyed-crow) would posess the dragon as a form of controll (..."

I do not anticipate Dany surviving the series.

I anticipate Martin killing off the most popular characters-Dany. Tyrion , Jon and Arya.

S wrote: "I anticipate Martin killing off the most popular characters-Dany. Tyrion , Jon and Arya."

Tyrion is safe. Martin is too fond of him. So is Jon. He is going to be on the throne at the end of the series and will be the one character who's arc most closely resembles the Monomyth. But, I've long suspected that Dany will not survive and as Arya grows darker and darker, I fear more her fate.