A Song of Ice and Fire - A Chapter a day discussion
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08/11/15 - Chapter 19: Jon III
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Dani, Stormborn, the Unburnt, Khaleesi and queen
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Aug 11, 2015 06:47PM
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. Ok, so we knew Jon would be better than most because he was trained at Winterfell, and at the start of the chapter he defeated this boy Grenn. Also, the man who trains them is Ser Alliser Thorne, who seems to be really harsh. And he mocks Jon calling him Lord Snow, which of course upsets him.. Jon is not getting along which his new brothers, he beat them all, and most of the people don't like losing. So he is not the most loved person in Castle Black right now.
. It is really, really cold, so much Jon thinks in a few years he will forget what is like to feel warm.
. "There was scant warmth to be found in Castle Black; the walls were cold here, and the people colder." I think when people spend so much time in such a cold environment (not only talking about wheater here), they turn cold themselves. It must be so hard to be a man of the Night's Watch.
. So Benjen Stark went ranging, and had little love for Jon since they got to the Wall. I found it interesting how Jon imagines his uncle dead after hearing what Tyrion said a few chapters back. It seems like he listen to what Tyrion said and didn't forget it.
. Jon has a lot of balls to offer Grenn to break his other wrist, when he is against four bigger and older boys. They are all mad because he made them look bad. I believe Jon really wanted to stand out, he must have known and see the others boys weren't trained, and he beat them all the same.
. I like how Noye calmed him down, how he said "words
won’t make your mother a whore. She was what she was, and nothing Toad says canchange that". And how Jon thinks his mother is highborn and beautiful. It makes me wanna hug him.
. I totally forgot Noye worked at some point for Stannis.
. Interesting how surprised Jon is when Noye told him he was being a bully, and the boys were probably afraid of him.
. Donal Noye has a point, let me tell you.
. Lol at Tyrion saying the Wall is the most useless thing men built after Benjen said it was the largest. We know is not so useless, like we read in the prologue.
. “As I was saying . . . why is it that when one man builds a wall, the next man immediately needs to know what’s on the other side?� I love Tyrion so much.
. Most of the keeps are empty, so they can sleep wherever they want. So it is a lot of space in the keeps of the Wall.
. Jon is so happy when he found out his brother woke up, he doesn't even care he will be crippled from now on. He is so damn happy he doesn't realise what he says to Thorne, and he doesn't like it at all. For what he said to Jon we can expect he won't be any nicer to him now.
@Clara, I think you're right about the coldness turning people eventually into cold, bitter people. And the phrase: 'having a cold heart' can almost be literal here. Hadn't thought of that until after I read what you said. And also about your point with Jon feeling guilt at imagining his uncle dead when Benjen left north without him, I had totally forgotten about what Tyrion told him in Jon's earlier chapter! Even in my second read I didn't believe Jon would think of something like that to his kin, but here it is! It puts a different light on Jon's character for me, not bad exactly, but more human, and it shows just how much he is hurting. He's the only bastard in the family, and being 14 of course he wants to go out on what he thinks are heroic adventures but Uncle Benjen tells him he's not ready yet. I completely forgot he wished for his death, and now he doesn't want it to come true (kind of reminds me of Catelyn and Bran back at Winterfell -- be careful what you wish for).
1. At first I like Ser Alliser Thorne, but quickly begin to change my opinion of him by the end of this chapter.
2. Jon hates being called Lord Snow. It's meant to mock him. Thorne himself named him that. He gives everyone nicknames. He's just a right old bully, to me, egging Jon on to humiliate the others. Not very "brother-like" if you ask me.
3. Black hair and onyx eyes, Thorn even looks Night's Watch. I wonder why the color of his eyes and hair is emphasized here when so many others aren't.
4. Weird that Thorne brings up the Others, since I thought everyone thinks they're not real, or ever were. Maybe he was just kidding, but it doesn't sound like it. Of all the fabled creatures to use, he brings up the Others. A part of me wonders if he knows something no one else does.
5. I like that Jon doesn't immediately get along with anybody. He always seems sullen, like Mr. Darcey in Pride and Prejudice, but eventually warms up to them. Jon's not an ass; and it also shows that his first impressions of people aren't always correct. People can change.
6. Interesting that the chill is always with him here, and he'd soon forget what it's like to be warm. Training certainly heats you up, though!
7. Jon is hurt at the thought that Ned knew it'd be this bad at the Wall and never told him. Only Tyrion told him the truth. I feel bad for Jon here. His dreams shattered. He doesn't even get much time with his uncle, and when he does, Benjen is not very genial. He must feel abandoned, and cheated.
8. "We put aside our old families when we swear our vows." No you don't... remember the prologue?
9. What made Jon imagine Ben Stark lying dead? Was he really that mad that he left without him? "What was he becoming?" I don't know, Jon... I guess there's a savage in all of us at times.
10. He considers Robb his best friend and constant companion. :) He even misses Sansa. He really misses Arya, accepts and loves her just for who she is. She could always make him smile. :) (I really hope they run into each other again!)
11. Jon standing up against boys bigger than him reminds me of Ghost versus that female dog, and even his litter mates. He doesn't even seem afraid, either. Just reckless, and angry.
12. They go there -- insulting his mom. Because they know they can't beat him in the yard, they'll attack him in other ways in order to preserve their pride.
13. "Jon was cold with rage." Usually, to me anyway, rage is associated with heat.
14. Interesting how they're making a big deal about whether Jon's mom was a whore or not. I like Donal Noye's handle on it: "She was what she was, and nothing Toad says can change that." It's true, too. It's just words. It's what Tyrion said earlier: make it your armor. Though I can see why Jon is offended -- he doesn't want his parent's honor smudged, though everyone knows he's a bastard anyway. In a way, this is Ned's fault, for having let Jon live under a rock this whole time, sheltered from the scorn that most bastards deal with everyday since they can remember. They're just words. And he needs to make an effort to get along with them, because like it or not they're going to be his new family soon.
15. "He knew nothing of his mother." Haha, premonition! I forgot that he dreamed of her often, though. In his dreams she was beautiful, highborn, and her eyes were kind. :)
16. Sounds like Jon looks up to Donal Noye, a real hero from the past, and he's only here because he lost an arm. Though he can still make armor for everybody with that one arm!
17. Donal comes right out and calls him a bully, wow, but it's the truth! Exactly what I'm thinking... Ser Alliser turned Jon into a bully without him realizing it, feeding off his need to prove himself, to be something great. Donal manages to make Jon feel ashamed of himself, that he was indeed being a bully.
18. The Wall shines, alive with light. Sounds beautiful, like our Northern Lights. Here I think GRRM is showing us by dropping small hints every now and then that cold and light, and heat and darkness, CAN coexist together. "...Somehow Jon knew that if it fell, the world fell with it."
19. "...but it was better not to speak of the things you wanted." Oh, Jon... :(
20. Tyrion gives him the same advice again...which proves all the more how important it is to make your weakness your strength.
21. Castle Black could house up to 5,000 fighting men; now it only holds 500. That is incredibly sad.
22. Oh, he wished his uncle was dead in the snow... ouch, now he feels terrible, because he was angry that Benjen didn't take him with him.
23. It's a little annoying at this point that Tyrion keeps joking about the grumpkins... This is serious, losing rangers for no known reason! And all you can do is joke about grumpkins and snarks? Here this reminds me that while Tyrion is smart, he's not as wise as I want him to be.
24. It's sweet, though, that Tyrion sits with Jon at dinner so he doesn't have to eat alone. :) Reminds me of grade school and how important it was to have friends.
25. And then Ser Alliser Thorne chides Jon, love how Tyrion stands up for him.
26. And Jon cries, AGAIN, lol, when he reads that Bran woke up. But this time it's tears of joy. It's so cute how happy he is -- even swinging Tyrion around in the air. I forgot about that!
27. Jon is now smiling, joking, and even offers his kindness to Grenn and the other boys he'd beaten up just moments ago -- making a 180 degree personality change. This suddenly gets him on Thorne's bad side, but at that point I'm so happy for him I think to myself: Good, jerkoff. Someone should stand up to you.
I don't remember if I thought about it the first time I read the book, but this time they all seems so cold. So I thought about sharing it, maybe somebody felt the same. And I don't think Jon would think time this second time either! Maybe his dream came true, but we don't know yet. I have read some theories about Benjen that are just ridiculous.Wow, I didn't think about your point 3! But it's true, he does seem black in every way. I also hope Jon and Arya see each other again, I just adore them so much! Interesting thing you said in your point 13; I didn't catch it the first time.
