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This topic is open for discussion about Six of Crows by Leigh Bardugo




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Book synopsis:
Ketterdam: a bustling hub of international trade where anything can be had for the right price—and no one knows that better than criminal prodigy Kaz Brekker. Kaz is offered a chance at a deadly heist that could make him rich beyond his wildest dreams. But he can't pull it off alone...

A convict with a thirst for revenge.

A sharpshooter who can't walk away from a wager.

A runaway with a privileged past.

A spy known as the Wraith.

A Heartrender using her magic to survive the slums.

A thief with a gift for unlikely escapes.

Six dangerous outcasts. One impossible heist. Kaz's crew is the only thing that might stand between the world and destruction—if they don't kill each other first.

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I've got this one preordered, and will probably dive in this weekend.

Will pop in! Hopefully work won't get in the way this week :)

Oh exciting - I didn't realise she had a new book being released. Will have to see if I can get my hands on it!

Up to Chapter 3 - Kaz (35)

It's a little confusing right off the bat with all the characters introduced since each chapter follows a different group of people it seems and I'm not certain how they all fit in. I do have the suspicion, however, that (view spoiler)[the ambassador found dead in a room where no one knows how the murder was pulled off might link back to the drug they were using on Anya in the first chapter, since she was able to use mind control. (hide spoiler)]

I'm hoping the romance between Joost and Anya doesn't become a major plot line. The second paragraph of this novel alone made me a little weary of it.

Up to Chapter 3- Kaz (pg. 35)

I think you're probably safe on Joost and Anya's romance, as my guess is that the characters from the first chapter aren't going to be major players in the book- that it was just an intro chapter to suck us in and tell us about some events that will end up mattering. But I could be wrong. I actually found the first paragraphs amusing, though I probably agree that very much of Joost's inept efforts to win over Anya would get old. I do know that this book does have six main characters (and more than one romance- though I don't know how major they are) and continues to be told from several different POVs. I usually like books with multiple narrators, as when done well, it tends to give more depth to the story and characters IMO, but it can definitely be confusing, especially at the beginning. This is quite a slow read for me so far.

I think your theory about the assassination is very high up on the list of possibilities. I'm wondering if the events of the first two chapters are supposed to have occurred on the same night or not (and if not, how much time passed between them) because that makes some difference in how the two chapters fit together.

I'm finding myself drawn into the story, but some of the things I didn't like so much from the Grisha trilogy are coming back to me, although my opinion on this book might end up being vastly different, as it's still very early on. But so far, I'm not finding the writing to be very smooth- it just doesn't flow as much as I would like. Plus, maybe too much telling instead of showing. Bardugo definitely creates a sense of atmosphere, but it's a bit too stark, harsh, and forbidding of an atmosphere for me,

Emily wrote: "I think you're probably safe on Joost and Anya's romance, as my guess is that the characters from the first chapter aren't going to be major players in the book"

I'm a little further now and I think you are definitely right, I don't have to be too worried. Hopefully the romance for any of the characters doesn't become a huge plot point, and it seems there is already plenty enough going on without it with all these different characters. I think Joost might become one of the Six of Crows, as it seems each chapter follows one of these six main characters (I am guessing), but I have no idea which one he would be as of yet. And it first couple of paragraphs were definitely entertaining (in small doses).


Emily wrote: "I'm finding myself drawn into the story, but some of the things I didn't like so much from the Grisha trilogy are coming back to me, although my opinion on this book might end up being vastly different, as it's still very early on.."

How do you feel about authors who reuse the same worlds over and over in different series? For example, Bardugo is taking the world from the Grisha trilogy and reusing it here. Mead reused the world from Vampire Academy for Bloodlines, Cassandra Claire reuses her one universe for just about every book she writes, ect. ect. On one hand, I don't mind it and sometimes even like it (especially when you can get cameo roles from some of your favorite characters from previous series/novels in the "spin offs") but on the other hand, it feels a bit like they are cheating/using a crutch. When an author is truly talented, I like seeing all the different worlds they can create, instead of coming back to the same one time and time again.


I am finding it a slow read as well because there is just so much going on and soooo many characters induced all at once! And I think one character in specific goes by two different names which has been slowing me down even more. But the plot is definitely interesting so far, and the pace of the story is definitely moving along.

i just got this :) looking forwards to reading it.

I started this morning. I agree that so far this is a much slower read than usual for me. I think the Grisha trilogy was also pretty slow-paced, but here I feel like there is a lot of information being thrown at me and I had a hard time following, particularly when they got into all the gangs.

Did any of you read The Lies of Locke Lamora? This feels similar to that, but maybe it's just the parallel between seedy underworlds.

Logan wrote: "Did any of you read The Lies of Locke Lamora? This feels similar to that, but maybe it's just the parallel between seedy underworlds. "

I won a copy of it a while back and it's been on my shelf to read since then, but I haven't gotten around to it =( Is it good?

Hi, Logan :) I haven't read The Lies of Locke Lamora, though I've heard good things about it, so I can't compare the two, unfortunately.

Elise- I haven't read too many spin-off series. I did enjoy Cassandra Clare's Infernal Devices trilogy (although I still need to read the third book). There's also a spin-off of my favorite adult urban fantasy series (the Mercy Thompson series, the spin-off is the Alpha and Omega series) that I love. I agree with what you said- they can be enjoyable, as it can be nice to just slip back into a world you already understand, but they also do seem to be cheating a bit, as the author isn't pushing themselves as much. In order for a spin-off to work well, I think you have to have two elements. One, the world has to have a lot of depth to begin with, so there are different aspects to explore and develop in the spin-off. Second, the author has to have enough of a different take or a twist to make the new series worthwhile and distinguish it from the original. For example, the Infernal Devices trilogy had quite a different atmosphere, being set in a different time period, which worked well. (But at this point Clare needs to find a new world and characters to write about!) Or in the case of the Alpha and Omega series, there's a great set of well-developed, original characters with a different perspective on the world that make it rewarding. Whether or not this book fits those two criteria, I haven't decided yet.


Up to Chapter 5 (pg. 68)

There's some excellent character development going on, although it's a bit of a slow start plot-wise. Kaz is a fascinating and original character, although I keep having to remind myself that he's only 17, as he comes across as much older to me (which I'm sure is partially, but definitely not entirely, due to his limp and cane). Despite feeling very intrigued by the characters, I wouldn't say I'm feeling much emotion coming from them or, as a result, feeling very connected to them as of yet, but that often takes time.

I like how the magic system here is decently well explained and mixes in some science in those explanations, mixing together what we know of our world with the impossible. I like magic systems that have rules and function in and almost science-like manner in my fantasy much better than the alternative. Maybe it's less truly magical to pin the magic down with rules and limitations, instead of just viewing it as mystical and unknowable, but it makes so much more sense to my brain for the magic to at least have a framework on which it's based.

I think (view spoiler)[the political, ethical, and practical quandaries presented by this drug are a great theme for a series. Parem really changes the game in this world, and allows for some cool ways that can be explored. (hide spoiler)]

So, (view spoiler)[obviously, Kaz has a price for which he's willing to override his objections about the riskiness, danger, and difficulty of this job. Do you agree with the philosophy that everyone has a price? I think most people have something they'd find it very hard to turn down, something that could overpower their sense of self-preservation, but that it's not necessarily money. Whether or not the desire for that something can overcome someone's moral principles, I think depends on the person. What do you guys think? (hide spoiler)]

I'm confused about Inej's past. What exactly is this Menagerie of which she was a part? Where did she learn her incredible sneaking, climbing, etc. skills?

Up to Chapter VI: Nina (pg 81)

I feel the same way about Kaz. It definitely doesn't seem like he is 17! He has definitely climbed the social ladder extremely fast, and I want to know what caused the limp and what the deal with his hands is.

I also agree about the character development. I think it is going to play a large role in the decision these characters make building up to the situation in the center of the plot, but I don't feel much of a connection to any of them yet. Even Nina (who you are about to meet) seems to have a sad past like Inej (you're about to learn a little bit about her in chapter five, including the Menagerie), but I'm still not that connected to them. I think this might be because of the sheer number of characters we've been thrown. Even with development, it's a lot to take.

The one thing I'm not sure about with the magic is the way that (view spoiler)[the Parem fits into the ordeal. It seems to take all those rules that make the magic in this system fit into science and then chucks them out the window. So I'm not quite sold on this "miracle drug" yet that turns stuff to gold. If it were real though, I sure as heck wouldn't want it in my world. The chaos it would bring to the economies and politics would be staggering - I hope Bardugo gets into that more here. (hide spoiler)]

I think maybe 95% of people would forego their morals if they were given enough money (that's probably me being pessimistic). There was a movie, I think, that brought up a similar situation - The Box or something. All you had to do was push a button and you would get a million dollars. The catch was that when you pushed the button, someone would die. I wouldn't be able to do it, but I'm sure a lot of people could. So I think you are right, it depends on a person and their circumstances. Money doesn't really mean anything to me, so it isn't even an incentive. But say I was poor, homeless, an orphan and having to sell myself on the streets just to have a roof over my head at night? I'm not even sure I know what I would be capable of then if I could find a way out of that terrible situation. (view spoiler)[So I don't think greed rules everyone like Kaz, but I do think we all have things that drive us that could maybe be manipulated (hide spoiler)].


I think the plot is starting to slowly speed up in the last chapter or two, but it's still a little slow.

Up to Chapter XI Jesper (pg 142)

I am still trying to figure out how Joost is going to play into the story. It feels like there ought to be some reason he was introduced in the first chapter, instead of just Anya. I'm thinking there is going to be a "bigger" picture for introducing Anya's character as well.

I'm not a big fan of all the drama between (view spoiler)[Nina and Matthias. I am sort of getting the feeling that maybe he was the one who brought her to that country since her testimony on human trafficking is what got him caught up in prison in the first place. But I think the whole "tension" between them is kind of forced (hide spoiler)]

The plot is definitely getting more interesting. It is still very slow, feels more like a simmer than a burn. For example, the entire last chapter - except right up to the very end - was basically just character development for Inej. At this point, I'm just gearing up for (view spoiler)[when they try to sneak in and get the captive out. I'm not sure how sound their plan seems (I think maybe it could have used a little more development - it came together pretty darn quick IMO), but we'll see. Definitely has potential for suspense! (hide spoiler)]

FINISHED(DID NOT BUDDY READ JUST NEED TO GET MY THOUGHTS OUT)
Nina and Matthias is OTP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I loved all of the characters so much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think Kaz is the Darkling though. Hope I'm right.

Up to Chapter 11 (pg. 142)

Things are definitely picking up some (or at least I'm reading a little faster now), but I'm getting kind of tired of the author teasing us with hints about the characters' pasts. There are still major questions unanswered about each of the six, and at least part of me wishes she would just tell us the answers so we could move on to the plot, the development and exploration of relationships between the characters, some emotional depth, etc.

While he's still a good character, I'm not nearly as interested in Kaz anymore. (view spoiler)[I find the seeking revenge trope to be overdone. (hide spoiler)]

I think I might hate Matthias. I'm not completely sure why he's rubbed me so the wrong way, maybe just (view spoiler)[his bigotry against Grisha. He also just doesn't really seem to match up well with Nina in a lot of ways, IMO. (hide spoiler)]

So, according to my table of contents, (view spoiler)[all the chapters except for the first and last are from Kaz, Inej, Nina, Matthias, or Jesper's POV. Which means the sixth "crow"- Wylan it would seem (although I have some doubts about that I'll discuss in a second)- doesn't have any. Which is very interesting. Did the author decide five was enough and the sixth wouldn't add? Or does Wylan have so many secrets that the author doesn't want to give away till the end, so it's best to just leave him completely a mystery? I wonder if the explosion that just happened was Wylan betraying them, and thus, he isn't the sixth crow. But I don't think it's Joost. I think this (in chapter 3) was supposed to be Joost dead: "Van Eck turned up the light on one of the lanterns, and Kaz saw a body in a purple uniform slumped on the floor, eyes closed. Van Eck sighed and crouched down to turn the body over. “We’ve lost another," he said. The boy was young, the bare scraps of a mustache on his upper lip." (pg. 54) Although I admit that's quite cryptic. But even if that's not him, he should be stuck "waiting" like the others (and eventually dying, since there didn't seem to be any hope to save them). (hide spoiler)]

Well, (view spoiler)[the whole Hellshow thing was quite gruesome. I really thought Matthias's fight with the wolves could have been written so much better! It evoked no response from me at all. Don't know if that was just me- maybe I temporarily misplaced my heart or something. (hide spoiler)]

Up to Chapter XVI (pg 185)

The plot is definitely starting to roll and pick up pace. I see the slow transition from character development to plot centered development taking place. We are still getting teases at backstory, but not a whole lot of substance to them now.


Emily wrote: "There are still major questions unanswered about each of the six, and at least part of me wishes she would just tell us the answers so we could move on to the plot, the development and exploration of relationships between the characters, some emotional depth, etc."

I am feeling the same way. On one hand, I like the mystery it adds to the plot. I think the problem is that I don't really connect with any of these characters (except maybe Inej a little), so I'm not spending all this time obsessing about what the past might hold as I sometimes do with other characters. Most of me just wants the backstory complete. I don't really like Matthias or Nina as this point. I'm still not sure what their past completely includes, but all the drama there just feels like it's drawing needless attention away from the plan for the plot. And Kaz is wayyyyy too wrapped up in this greed things for me to take a liking to him.

So this is what I'm thinking for the Crows so far:

(view spoiler)[A convict with a thirst for revenge - Matthias

A sharpshooter who can't walk away from a wager - Jester

A runaway with a privileged past - Wylan

A spy known as the Wraith - Inej

A Heartrender using her magic to survive the slums - Nina

and

A thief with a gift for unlikely escapes - ? (any ideas?)

Since it says all six work with Kaz, I don't think Kaz counts as one of the crows (hide spoiler)]

I don't know what the deal with Wylan is, except maybe he's a (view spoiler)[plant from his family to keep an eye on them, or to try to take them out once the rescue mission is done so they don't have to pay out that enormous sum (hide spoiler)].

Yeah, the (view spoiler)[Hellshow thing was pretty messed up. And I agree that Matthias's fight could have been written much better, as could their escape when they have to move through the area of all the unleashed creatures. It could have been a lot more suspenseful. But the part with Kaz and the eye later on at the docks? That stuff was messed up and definitely felt visceral (hide spoiler)]. I thought that part was well done.

I've got a family thing today so I might fall a little bit behind today and tomorrow, but still trying to read at least a little each day =)

I'm up through Chapter 17 now. Sorry I haven't been posting much!

I agree about Nina and Matthias. As much as I love a good hate-to-love romance, this doesn't feel like that to me. To treat her the way he did (view spoiler)[on the slaver ship, like she was less than a dog (hide spoiler)] is just not ever going to win him over for me. The animosity is not interesting to me, and if this is all setup for an eventual scenario where the team thinks he betrayed them but really he saves the day I might punch something.

I also assumed that Joost (view spoiler)[was the dead boy. (hide spoiler)] I've already forgotten though - do we know where Anya is?

I still like Kaz, but I do really want to know what's up with his hands. Is he Grisha? Regarding Rebecca's comment, this all takes place after the trilogy, right? So I don't think Kaz can be the Darkling.

I was also expecting the Hellshow to be more disturbing. (view spoiler)[I think because we didn't know Matthias' thoughts on wolves beforehand it lost some of the impact. (hide spoiler)]

The book summary includes Kaz in the crew, so I think he is one of the six and is the thief. We know he stole the painting from Van Eck and managed to escape the parley and the boat explosion.

Overall I really like the dark aspects of the gang wars and such, but it's moving a little too slowly for my taste. I don't know if it's odd phrasing or what, but I keep having to reread sentences or sections because things are not very clear. For being almost to the end of Part 3, I'd like for them to at least be at the Ice Palace already!

Logan wrote: "I've already forgotten though - do we know where Anya is?"

I missed the part about Joost. My eyes must have glazed over and I must have skimmed through that. Anya, if I recall correctly, (view spoiler)[was found dead in the water, I think trying to swim somewhere to get more of the drug? I kind of glazed through that as well since it was like reading through molasses a bit (hide spoiler)].



Logan wrote: "Is he Grisha? Regarding Rebecca's comment, this all takes place after the trilogy, right? So I don't think Kaz can be the Darkling."

I honestly have no idea when in time this series takes place compared to the Grisha trilogy. Does anyone know for certain?



Logan wrote: "The book summary includes Kaz in the crew, so I think he is one of the six and is the thief. We know he stole the painting from Van Eck and managed to escape the parley and the boat explosion."

The book sleeve on my version is a little vague. I must have read this wrong then. My bad! =)

Elise wrote: "Logan wrote: "I've already forgotten though - do we know where Anya is?"

I missed the part about Joost. My eyes must have glazed over and I must have skimmed through that. Anya, if I recall cor..."
Six of Crows takes place 2 years after the Grisha trilogy.

So I am going to a Leigh Bardugo signing!!!!! Any questions on Six of Crows/Grisha? I would be happy to ask them!

Thanks for the detail on the timing, Rebecca, that helps! That's really cool that you're going to a signing! I've actually never been to one (I know, how can I call myself a real book geek? ;) I'll definitely have to fix that sometime. I don't have a question for you to ask, but I do have a question for anyone on this thread, especially for those who are The Grisha trilogy fans: has anyone caught any specific crossover (like details or characters) between The Grisha trilogy and this book? (Beyond the Grisha powers themselves, the countries, mentions of the Ravkan civil war, and other such big picture things.) I don't remember the trilogy very well, so I'm worried I'm missing some connection(s). (view spoiler)[Nina wasn't ever mentioned in the trilogy, was she? I know she was taught by Zoya, but that's the only crossover I've caught so far. (hide spoiler)]

Up to Chapter 18

So this book is getting... gritty, I would say- or at least grittier than I remember the Grisha trilogy being. (view spoiler)[That whole scene with Oomen and his eye- wow. I agree, Elise, very visceral. I admit to being a wimp, but that was a bit much for me. (hide spoiler)]

The book this is reminding me of is The Final Empire (the first Mistborn book). Kaz and Inej remind me quite a bit of the main characters in that (although the relationships between the two sets of characters are different), as well as there being the whole "band of thieves taking on an impossible job" thing.

I agree, Elise, that I don't connect to these characters as much as I often do when there's this much character development. I think my favorite is Jesper right now, actually. Which is kind of strange, as I haven't really enjoyed what little gambling I've done and have an aversion to guns. But, of course, it's usually not the specifics about a character that allow you to connect with him or her. I've felt Jesper's sense of insecurity more than I've felt the emotions from the other characters. I like Inej to some degree as well. Who's your favorite, Logan (or anyone else who wants to answer)?

I hadn't read the blurb in a couple months actually. It is vague on whether Kaz is considered one of the six or not, but (view spoiler)[that last description would seem to fit him. (hide spoiler)]

That's a good theory on Wylan, Elise, although (view spoiler)[his family would have to have been planning far ahead to have him move to the Barrel long before the Fjerdans got ahold of Bol Yul-Bayur. However, I guess he might have moved out for other reasons, but now be playing the role of plant for his family anyway. (hide spoiler)]

I agree with your thoughts on Matthias and Nina, Logan and Elise. I also can be a fan of a good hate to love romance, but this feels more like Nina fighting to change him and drama for the sake of drama.

Like you, Logan, I also find some parts not super clear, which is why it's been a slow read for me. I think it's at least partially because the author makes a lot of things cryptic since she's not giving us the full backstories yet.

Rebecca wrote: "Six of Crows takes place 2 years after the Grisha trilogy."

Oh, I think I get what you were saying about the Darkling now. Not that he becomes the Darkling but that the Darkling reinvented himself as Kaz?

That's interesting!

The only crossover I have noticed was Zoya too. And there's one more that's coming up in a few chapters. But I don't remember if Nina was in the trilogy, but she must have been right? Maybe it was just a mention here and there.

And I totally agree that it feels like Nina is trying to change Matthias. It's great that she wants him to think of Grisha as humans, but trying to also push a love interest there feels too forced.

Emily wrote: "That's a good theory on Wylan, Elise, although (view spoiler)"

Good point. Had a brain fart there =)



Logan wrote: "And I totally agree that it feels like Nina is trying to change Matthias. It's great that she wants him to think of Grisha as humans, but trying to also push a love interest there feels too forced. "

I've never really understood the attraction/relationships where people like the person they think they can turn someone into. Most people do not like to change, and it's a receipt for disaster probably 9 times out of 10. Now if someone changes, then yeah - go ahead and like the person they become. I still don't know the whole backstory between them and if that's even what is happening/happened with Nina/Matthias, but their whole love interest feels really forced so far.

I'm up to chapter 22 or 23 I think, and you do get some backstory for Nina and Matthias but none of it has really changed my opinion of either of them.

Up to Chapter 25

Well, the pace, plot, and intrigue have definitely picked up! I'm very sucked in- it was hard for me to stop reading to write these comments. It seems to me that (view spoiler)[Kaz has either never told the group all of the real plan or has changed the plan for some reason. I certainly think Kaz will be anticipating Nina and Matthias's move. (hide spoiler)] While not the MOST suspenseful book I've ever read, it is keeping me fairly on the edge of my seat now.

Kaz is seeming younger and more likable because he's showing more vulnerabilities. But (view spoiler)[I don't understand how he can do the same thing to people as was done to him, tricking and conning people out of their money and even taking pleasure and pride in it. He blames Pekka Rollins for his brother's death, but he must be just as responsible now for similar tragedies. I will never understand this mindset, that things are only a crime when perpetrated against you or those you care about, but not when done to strangers. (hide spoiler)] So on the whole, I'm definitely liking Kaz less.

The whole Nina/Matthias situation is just too convoluted and complicated for me to be able to get behind.

Jesper (view spoiler)[being a Fabrikator definitely came as a surprise to me, but really, it shouldn't have. It had crossed my mind that it was strange that there was only one Grisha on the crew. (hide spoiler)]

The name of Part Four- The Trick to Falling- greatly intrigued me. (view spoiler)[In chapter 12, Inej says that "her father had taught her to fall�� to protect her head and minimize the impact by not fighting her own momentum", which could be taken figuratively. And, of course, there's the slightly cliche, but very true in my opinion, saying/advice of Inej's that "the trick is in getting back up." I wonder what (other) literal or metaphorical falls are to come. (hide spoiler)]

I should have said this awhile ago, but I loved (view spoiler)[Inej's father's advice about flowers, boys, and finding love. (hide spoiler)]

Up to Chapter XXV (pg 301)

Logan wrote: "I'm up to chapter 22 or 23 I think, and you do get some backstory for Nina and Matthias but none of it has really changed my opinion of either of them."

Same here. If anything, it made me like their pairing even less. Granted, I liked Nina a little for (view spoiler)[saving him, even though he had basically called her a dog. But it seems like their feelings have no basis at all. Their "romance" comes from them just sleeping huddled together for warmth? That turned the tides and made her completely forget what he does/how he treats Grisha? Did not like that at all (hide spoiler)]


Emily wrote: "Kaz is seeming younger and more likable because he's showing more vulnerabilities. But (view spoiler) So on the whole, I'm definitely liking Kaz less."

I like the point you made there. To me, the vulnerability we see where (view spoiler)[he starts shaking and then passes out (hide spoiler)] just seems uncharacteristic to me. Bardugo has built him up to this kind of unattainable level of almost evil, so even with this I don't like him. Also, I'm not sure the (view spoiler)[romance between him and Inej is well played out either. It seems a little similar to Matthias and Nina, where there are just these feelings, and even with the characters' backstories I am not feeling it (hide spoiler)].

Jesper surprised me too. I like the point he made (view spoiler)[about the reasons why he hid the truth about his abilities (hide spoiler)]

I'm still not hooked on the plot yet and it's taking me a while to get through it. I think (view spoiler)[almost everyone has their own agenda for the rescue. I agree that Kaz has not told anyone about his whole real plan for the rescue - after all, there have been surprises he's kept hidden the entire time so far, so I definitely think there is more to come. And we know Nina and Matthias have personal agendas too. And I feel like Wylan still has a secret as well that could impact how the rescue goes off (hide spoiler)]. We are at least getting to the main part of the plot now though, so I still have hope!

Finished

Definitely not my favorite. The fact that (view spoiler)[Van Eck had no intention of actually paying them and was going to double cross them at the end (hide spoiler)] was so predictable that I couldn't believe Kaz had not even considered. I figured it was coming the whole time. (view spoiler)[Considering how he had layered plans for everything else, it seems kind of absurd that he didn't have a contingency in place. I guess to some respect he did, with Wylan, but still. Van Eck got the better of him, Inej got smoked... I realize Barugo was probably going for the shock factor but I didn't like it (hide spoiler)]. It felt like 400+ pages of build up for not much delivery.

There was a solid 50 pages or so that were actually pretty interesting to read, but they didn't really carry the story for me. I probably won't continue the series since (view spoiler)[Inej was the only character I really liked. If you took out all the drama with Matthias, I also kind of liked Nina too... and look what happened to her (hide spoiler)].

What did you guys think of the ending/story in general?

I finished today. I agree with Elise. This one missed the mark in a lot of areas, but I rated it 4 stars mostly out of love for the world. I think trying to build complicated (yet somehow still full of tropes!) back stories for all of the characters slowed the pace way too much. There was so much set up and then the action felt disjointed and rushed at the end - particularly when they got back to Ketterdam.

I will read the next one. It's apparently only a duology and I'd like to see if they can all overcome their personal demons and make peace with their lives.

Logan wrote: "I will read the next one. It's apparently only a duology and I'd like to see if they can all overcome their personal demons and make peace with their lives. "

Didn't realize it is only going to be a duology. When I finished Six of Crows I figured I wouldn't continue the series. But if there is only one book left, I'll probably give it a second chance.

Up to Part Six (pg. 407)

So I recently heard on GR when discussing a different book that it's a common theory that frequently shifting POV in a book keeps readers from identifying and connecting with the characters. Do you agree? While I don't think this is always true, it does seem to be the case for me here. Often I love books with multiple POVs because I get to know more characters well and gain a more complete picture of events, but I think alternating between five was too many, and I'm not sure the author has quite the strengths necessary to pull it off. I just don't really care about any of these characters enough to be interested in what happens. I've been stalled on this one for a few days because I was starting the BOM, but I haven't had any huge desire to get back to it, even though I'm in the midst of the climax.

I see your argument about Kaz and Inej's relationship, Elise, that they're in essence just trying to change each other as well, but to me it feels a little different. (view spoiler)[While I'm not greatly invested in them as a couple, I think they fit together because of what they bring out in each other. Inej helps uncover a bit of the morality and human decency Kaz has buried since Jordie's death, and Kaz has helped empower Inej and bring out her strength and resolve. Plus, the two of them allow the other to trust and feel some real human connection again, along with helping to heal each other's emotional wounds. Instead of trying to change each other, they reveal what's already there, just hidden. But I admit that the distinction is subtle and it might not be enough of a difference. (hide spoiler)]

So Logan, you were right on about (view spoiler)[Matthias's fake betrayal. Hopefully you didn't actually hit something ;) I found it a fairly ineffective tool for ramping up the tension, plus one that's overused. (hide spoiler)]

This book is interesting because despite the characters being criminal types from a slum, they don't swear much that I have noticed. A few times they've used swear words in other languages, but not to any realistic degree. I've read a few books recently (all of them YA) that have fit in different places along the swearing continuum, including one that had a fair amount and one that used euphemisms instead of the actual words, so the lack of it in this book got me thinking about the subject. What is your opinion on swearing in books? I'm very divided on the subject. On the one hand, I don't have any great problem with swearing in moderation- I think words have as much power as you give them- so that part of me thinks using some for verisimilitude makes sense. Obviously they shouldn't be used in children's books, but I feel like even fairly sheltered teenagers know the words, so I don't know that we need to protect YA readers. Considering some of the violence and such in this book, it seems silly to be worried about language. On the other hand, I think reading lots of curse words makes you more likely to use them, since they come to mind more easily. I don't really want to swear more often, so in that way, I might prefer books that are "cleaner." So as I said, I don't have a definite opinion- I guess like a lot of things, it's a choice by the author that contributes to the book's tone.

Emily wrote: "So I recently heard on GR when discussing a different book that it's a common theory that frequently shifting POV in a book keeps readers from identifying and connecting with the characters. Do you agree? While I don't think this is always true, it does seem to be the case for me here. Often I love books with multiple POVs because I get to know more characters well and gain a more complete picture of events, but I think alternating between five was too many, and I'm not sure the author has quite the strengths necessary to pull it off. I just don't really care about any of these characters enough to be interested in what happens. I've been stalled on this one for a few days because I was starting the BOM, but I haven't had any huge desire to get back to it, even though I'm in the midst of the climax."

I think telling a story from multiple POVs makes it more difficult to identify with the characters, but not impossible. And really, I don't think it's the POV that makes it difficult but the shear number of characters. I think any novel that has a large number of main characters and side characters can be more difficult to identify with than a book with a small cast. But I think that is a sign of a true writer, if they are able to pull it off. I think it is certainly more difficult to write (I have a series I am writing that have seven main characters and changes POV between them and it is definitely not easy).




Emily wrote: "This book is interesting because despite the characters being criminal types from a slum, they don't swear much that I have noticed. A few times they've used swear words in other languages, but not to any realistic degree. I've read a few books recently (all of them YA) that have fit in different places along the swearing continuum, including one that had a fair amount and one that used euphemisms instead of the actual words, so the lack of it in this book got me thinking about the subject. What is your opinion on swearing in books? "

I hadn't even though about that but you are right. I give writers some slack when it is an alternate realty/world they are writing in, because the customs could be totally different there, just as how in different dialects of English different words count as swear words (like 'ass' for British people does not have the same swearing connotation as 'ass' for Americans, and I believe - if I remember correctly - that 'fart' has a much stronger meaning for British than Americans, etc.

I think authors should try to be honest to the characters they are writing when it comes to swearing (even though excessive swearing can get really annoying for me to read, like Earl did a bit in Me and Earl and the Dying Girl). I know when my husband plays GTA all I can hear coming from the game is *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* and it's really annoying, but I bet that it isn't that far off from how some people actually talk.

That's amazing, Elise, that you're writing a series like that! It does sound tough, but I'm so impressed you'd take something like that on!


Finished

The ending wasn't fabulous, but I thought it was decent enough. I totally called that (view spoiler)[Nina would have to use parem as soon as Brum told Matthias it was possible to fight off the addiction with just one dose. (hide spoiler)] I knew from the beginning that (view spoiler)[things would not go as Kaz had hoped after they had secured Yul-Bayur. At least Kaz didn't end up actually handing over over Kuwei because that would have ended in complete disaster. It's true that Kaz didn't maybe have as many tricks up his sleeve as usual (or as needed), but he did make contingencies for betrayal. I agree he wasn't anticipating it as much as he should have been, but if he had managed to out play Van Eck, there would be no second book. The characters would have gone their separate ways, and who knows if they would have mastered their demons or if the money would have been more curse than escape. I'm actually finding the thought of them all splitting up to be rather distressing. (hide spoiler)] I think I got more attached to the characters as a group, as a makeshift family of sorts, than as individuals. Though I have been thinking about the characters a bit, so maybe they slipped more into my emotions than it had appeared to me. If it's only a duology, I'm curious enough to give the sequel a shot.

I'm think I'm rating the book a 2.75, although considering all the faults I found with it, I'm not really sure why I'm not rating it lower.

I do think this book meets my requirements for a good spin-off series.

Here's my review, though it doesn't say too much I hadn't already said here:
/review/show...

I do think the multiple POVs contributed to my troubles connecting with some of the characters, but I see how they were necessary. Once things moved to the Ice Castle and the group split up, we needed the different perspectives to follow the action, and third person POV is not too popular with the YA crowd.

The swearing thing didn't bother me - I didn't really notice that they weren't. I don't mind swearing in books, and I think most swears are prevalent enough in other media that it's not very shocking to today's teens.

I did not actually punch things re: Matthias, but I did roll my eyes. :)

Yeah, it's hard because the different perspectives were necessary because the characters weren't always together, and it was nice to get things from the characters' perspectives because it led to greater character development. But things just didn't completely come together for me. It was an impressive story to attempt, though, which is maybe why I didn't rate it lower.

BUDDY READ REVISIT! BUDDY READ REVISIT! BUDDY READ REVISIT!

This topic is open for discussion about Six of Crows by Leigh Bardugo


Book synopsis:
Ketterdam: a bustling hub of international trade where anything can be had for the right price—and no one knows that better than criminal prodigy Kaz Brekker. Kaz is offered a chance at a deadly heist that could make him rich beyond his wildest dreams. But he can't pull it off alone...

A convict with a thirst for revenge.

A sharpshooter who can't walk away from a wager.

A runaway with a privileged past.

A spy known as the Wraith.

A Heartrender using her magic to survive the slums.

A thief with a gift for unlikely escapes.

Six dangerous outcasts. One impossible heist. Kaz's crew is the only thing that might stand between the world and destruction—if they don't kill each other first.

You want to stop at a specific chapter or something? That way, there's no spoilers being mentioned.

Eunice wrote: "You want to stop at a specific chapter or something? That way, there's no spoilers being mentioned."

Eunice,

Sorry, I wasn't subscribed to this thread (am now), real life super busy last few days.

Whatever works for you. I'm reading Chapter 20 now. We could both comment on first impressions on the first few chapters, and/or that and up to anywhere you might be.

Have now read to page 317. Next is Part 4 "The Ice Does Not Forgive"

Ok sorry, only saw your reply. I actually only read the first few chapters because school has kept us busy. But I'll get to reading it.

My first impression was, "Is Joost a part of the team of six? I can't believe it." To me, he doesn't seem to be anything special. And he wasn't. So then, I wondered what is that first part for? Is that a catalyst for the quest of Kaz's team?

****THIS BUDDY READ IS BEING REVISITED!*

Starts June 15, 2018

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Okay I've had this on my TBR for way too long. Looking forward to reading it and hoping it lives up to the hype.

Jammin Jenny wrote: "Okay I've had this on my TBR for way too long. Looking forward to reading it and hoping it lives up to the hype."

Oh I hope you love it!!!

Same here Jenny! I had this out from the library for over a month and ended up returning it unread. I just wasn't finding the time but now is perfect. looking forward to finally reading this!

Yay! Very excited to do this book

(Team Tonks)

I’ll join in on this book as well. A reread for me but I really loved this book!