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I've seen a lot of these writing workshops aiming to better writing skills. But, if you don't have the talent to begin with can you be taught?
Or is it an innate talent only a selected few have?

I believe anyone can be taught to be a competent writer. But brilliant writers are born, not made---though everyone should learn the basics of competent writing. As the saying goes--learn the rules and then you can break them.

You can be taught. It's mostly self-teaching, though. Classes and workshops give you the writing basics, but at the end of the day you can only really learn by doing. For example, I often say that I learned more from writing fanfiction than I did from classes on creative writing. The reason for this is because with fanfiction, I was doing a lot more actual writing. Coming up with fanfic ideas was easier than coming up with original fiction, because with fanfic I already had most of what I needed (characters, setting, an entire world, etc). Where as with original fiction there was a lot more I had to work on, a lot more time needed to work on it, and a complete loss of motivation when the story ended up not working out.

So by the time I eased out of fanfic and back into original fic, my writing had majorly improved.

I think that if you have enough of a passion for writing, or even if you merely enjoy it as a hobby, you will eventually get better at it whether you have a talent for it or not.

You can be taught grammar, how to hold a pen, how to type, and the mechanics of putting a plot together, developing characters, etc... But, without passion to write, the spark is not there.

just like any other kind of art, writing a story is almost completely--barring grammar and basic character and plot--subjective.

there is no such thing as a brilliant writer--nor artist for that matter--that is born or has innate talent. writing a story and then having people praise it with accolade upon accolade is such a complex social phenomena that it goes beyond the genes. it's not like a writer is a mathematical genius or superb athlete.

i agree that effort is required. you should also know the market you're targeting. with the ease of self-publishing and ease of distribution, readers can easily find the books that they like and you can easily find your audience; we are in--what i like to call--the era of niche marketing.

as far as classes and being self-taught, there are two books that I'd bet my not-yet-started writing career on:

Strunk and White (The Elements of Style ) -- this is the writing style that is commonly looked upon as "good writing"

Aristotle's Poetics ( Poetics)-- this is the basic story that is commonly viewed as a "good story"

I can only speak from my own personal experience Angel. If writing is in your hearts desire then give it a try. The wonderful thing that can happen is you might actually complete your book and then face the task of publishing it. Open your mind to possibilities, follow your dreams and be head strong about learning how to get your book into publication. Best of Luck!

Anyone can be taught anything* if they have the drive to learn. But that drive is the most important part.


*Except crochet. I still can't grasp that nonsense. ;p

I think that a person who learns to write without acquiring the passion for it is like a singer who is trained well enough to hit the notes correctly but is not inspired by the music. The technical part may be correct, but no one cares. For any artist passion is the most important part.

I have another thought. True, without inspiration and passion, the work is lifeless. But, writing is indeed a craft, and the craftsman must learn to use his tools. Then, there is effort. Madame Curie once said, Genius is 1% inspiration, and 99% perspiration.' You must work hard to develop and apply the gifts you have.

Anyone can be taught to write competently, but being able to clearly articulate your ideas through writing is something many people find beyond them. I think that calls for an element of ability or talent you have to possess naturally or find within yourself.

Writing is a talent that can be developed, yes. But if you lack imagination and the ability to conceptualize, I'm not sure it does much good.

Steve: That was my point exactly. You can't teach someone to become a Hemingway, or a Ginsberg , or an Andrew Marvell.

I was taught to write in kindergarten. :)

Tim wrote: "Steve: That was my point exactly. You can't teach someone to become a Hemingway, or a Ginsberg , or an Andrew Marvell."

Yeah, writing is a funny pursuit. I consider myself a pretty good writer, but when I read my favourite authors I am amazed and awed by their way with words and wonder if I can ever reach those heights. I don't know if I will, but I am determined to get as close as my abilities will allow.

The ability to teach is not as crucial as the willingness to learn.

I think you can definitely be taught to write but story-telling is an acquired skill - putting a story down on paper is the single most difficult and rewarding thing I do all day - part science, part art, part magic. I've read a lot of stuff about how to write a story - most of it didn't make sense. I learned the most about story-telling from watching movies.

if you can tell a tall tale to your homies then you can learn to "write". everyone starts out writing as they speak but with reading more, taking classes and living life one can improve their skills.
now writing mainstream fiction is another matter....

Tim wrote: "Steve: That was my point exactly. You can't teach someone to become a Hemingway, or a Ginsberg , or an Andrew Marvell."

you can teach anyone who wants to learn to articulate their ideas--as well as imagination and conceptualization--in writing (as Dwayne stated). that is not something innate. true, it is difficult for some people but that is rather a result of education (formal and within their wider circle) than some genetically-determined ability.

therefore, you can teach someone to be a writer at the same level as hemingway, ginsberg, or marvell. now, whether they are writers to whom all budding writers should aspire is subjective. i find hemingway to be overrated; ginsburg's howl is excellent but some of his other writing is absurdist tripe; as for marvell, Eliot didn't think much of him (and I happen to like Eliot's Wasteland and his cat poems quite a bit); on the other hand, Ronald Tanaka Shido, The Way of Poetry (of whom I am confident that no one here has ever heard) is a great American poet; then there is Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man (Invisible Man) of which it is difficult to find a more eloquent yet alienating portrayal of the American psyche.

Isn't it like any talent? Like playing an instrument or singing? Or painting?

Anyone can be taught, but only those with a natural propensity to their craft will truly excel.

You can't deny talent exists when there are people in this world like Pablo Picasso, Ernest Hemingway, Elon Musk, Albert Einstein, Tiger Woods, Nikola Tesla, Michael Phelps, Meryl Streep, Tom Brady, Michael Jordan, Jimi Hendrix.

I know Wayne Gretzky put in his 10,000 hours but so have thousands of other hockey players and he is twice as good as the next best player. But here's the thing, most of these people were obsessed with their work. It wasn't even a job to them but something they had to do everyday. A very deep passion that was just inside them since they were born. Elon Musk became a billionaire from Pay Pal, he could have easily retired and yet he went right back to work creating Space X and Tesla motors. Donald Trump would rather be working in his office than sitting on a beach. You won't see these kind of people retire from their work because they love it too much. Maybe passion has a lot to do with talent, who knows. You can get all the writing classes in the world but they still won't be able to teach you passion.

I'd never written a word of fiction until February 2009. Then a story hit me like the proverbial locomotive, and it gave me no peace until it was written down. In some respects, stories find you, and if you're really lucky, a great story might shake your hand.

Can you teach technique, discipline, organization? Yes.
Can you teach vocabulary, syntax and grammar. Yes
Can you sing the song in another's head, stop the breath in terror, goose the flesh of a reader soul?

Angel - These are all good comments. I like what K.P. wrote

K.P. wrote: if you can tell a tall tale to your homies then you can learn to "write". everyone starts out writing as they speak but with reading more, taking classes and living life one can improve their skills.
now writing mainstream fiction is another matter....

Angel - You could tell me about the 1st time you made a pie or pancakes. You know your friends, so you know what they will find humorous, frustrating, or maybe it’s a sense of accomplishment.

I could tell you about making a chocolate cake when the bag of ingredients slipped from the box into the heavy duty blender. The bag was shredded before I could find the off switch. And a cloud of powder found its way into every nook and cranny in the kitchen. More...

With fiction, you can build on the story or create something altogether new.

I totally agree! :)

Christina wrote: "Anyone can be taught anything* if they have the drive to learn. But that drive is the most important part.


*Except crochet. I still can't grasp that nonsense. ;p"

If the passion for yarn is within you, you can master crochet!
Now, knitting, on the other hand.....

Crystal wrote: "If the passion for yarn is within you, you can master crochet!
Now, knitting, on the other hand..... "

And God forbid you confuse the two in front of someone that does one or the other...

Fantastic thread. I believe that maybe people can be taught but ultimately, it is what is caught, either from the DNA or as God Gift (which still needs to be well-honed), or as an inherent skill of observation coupled with fertile imagination and good if not great language that do a writer make. It HAS to be from somewhere within you, that pull, that urge that makes you pull out the best in you and not just pick the best out from around the writing world to modify it as your own.

, chk this out. Interesting thread.

Crystal wrote: "If the passion for yarn is within you, you can master crochet!
Now, knitting, on the other hand..... "

Ah, so it's an either or thing. As I suspected. And still relevant to the topic. Some people have natural talent for only one aspect of writing.
One person may have an active imagination,but have no grasp of structure. Another might be a brilliant writer on a technical level, but have no story to tell. Can one be taught the other? I am i clined to think that with the right motivation, the concept artist can learn the architecture of writing, but I'm not so sure about the other way around.

I agree that people may have natural talent in some aspects of writing, but probably not in all of them. I know I don't ;) You definitely must have the drive and determination to be a writer. I don't believe most of us do it for the big bucks or for the glory!! ha ha We write because we have to.

Nice segway back on topic, Christina.
Well done.Well done.

There are certainly many techniques that can be learned. Nobody started out with everything they needed to become an Author, we all had to learn how, in many ways and many forms. I still have a lot to learn.

I believe anyone can be taught to write competently, if they're willing to learn. I believe anyone can improve their writing if they're eager to do so. How far someone can go? I think that's a combination of too many things for me to fathom. But I know the only failure is not trying.

Stephen King will never be William Shakespeare, but that's okay. He's done alright for himself writing Stephen King style.

Christina wrote: "I am i clined to think that with the right motivation, the concept artist can learn the architecture of writing, but I'm not so sure about the other way around. "

ah, a cogent analysis.

perhaps cultivating rather than teaching imagination/observation/brainstorming would be a more accurate description.

Charles wrote: "There are certainly many techniques that can be learned. Nobody started out with everything they needed to become an Author, we all had to learn how, in many ways and many forms. I still have a lot to learn. "

Good point. Like any art form, there never has been a true master, nor will there ever be. We're all still students, really.

I'm a musician, and it has occurred to me that writing is a lot like playing the piano. Anyone can learn to play, but mastering it is a whole different story. And even if you do, you still have to practice. A famous master cellist, when asked why he practiced, replied "because I think I'm making progress." And so it is with writing. To echo Dwayne, we're always students.

Jacek wrote: "Roxanne wrote: "I'm a musician, and it has occurred to me that writing is a lot like playing the piano. Anyone can learn to play, but mastering it is a whole different story."
I've tried to learn g..."

I sooo agree with you.

Comment deleted for negative criticism, calling the writing of some "randomly placed sentences".

As the Supreme Overlord said in the Intro: "That being said, we are not here to look down on anyone. Period. End of story."

This is a support group, guys.

I once asked some friends of mine who work with visual arts how much of it they thought was technique and how much was natural expression (because I wanted to consider writing in the light of their opinions - I see writing as art and that explains to me all the subjectivity that comes with it and with its appreciation by readers).

Most told me "you need techniques, but you can 'learn' them by yourself as well, by trial and error". They also thought that a sensibility is needed for art to be "good" (their words). I think this sensibility is not something you learn formally, but I also don't think it's something you are born with necessarily. Maybe a pre-disposition for it?

As for learning how to write, I've always considered that for that more than taking classes on writing (though they might be useful, especially when you discuss your work with others and take into consideration their suggestions), you need to read as much as you can (the kind of book you want to write) and write as much as you can (trial and error has worked for me).

I'm not sure this other comment is entirely on topic, but I've heard more than once that there is a difference between knowing how to write and being a writer, as in it takes a knowledge of the professional field for someone to be able to pursue a career as a writer. I'm not arguing for this definition of writer (the one who has professional success), but I always imagined writing classes would deal with that (as I understand it, they don't).

Claus wrote: "...you need to read as much as you can..."

Yes. I believe this is where the talent really comes from. It's not something we're born with, or we'd be writing sonnets while still in the womb (as I believe Charles was alluding to). And there are many aspects of writing that cannot be taught in the class room, but these are self-taught. Not just from reading but studying books. Look at how your favorite authors structure their stories, pay attention to the kind of words they use. I'd also go as far as to say that it's not a bad idea to read things outside the genre you're writing in. This will help to ensure you're developing your own voice and not just copying what others in your genre are doing.

I wanted to add that I, too, grew up with music and was trained as a music educator. Writing is definitely like music in that, you study more advanced artists, you practice your own skills, and you take advice from teachers. The thing I think no one tells you is that writing is very much like acting. You need to immerse yourself in your writing so thoroughly that you are living vicariously through your characters. I'm speaking of fiction writing, of course. I know that if I'm doing it right, when I quite writing and come back into the real world of my life, it's like I'm a stranger in it, which is a good thing. It meant that my immersion in my fictional world was complete.

Dwayne, I think you've put it perfectly - it's important to study books. I actually started getting more interested in writing (though I already enjoyed it) when I noticed a narrative style one of my favorite authors used (from the third book on his series onward), and I think thinking about it and looking at it from the outside shaped my writing a lot.

It's also a good way to see what works for you and what doesn't. To be honest, something that helped me too were some youtube videos that talk about game development (some talk about the narrative and stotytelling in games), especially in regards to suspension of disbelief and narrative structure.

Though I still feel like I'm not paying attention to any of that when I write a first draft (I like to joke that I'm in a trance at that moment, because it's kind of how I feel), when editting it really comes in handy (and while coming up with plotlines).

Dwayne wrote: "Good point. Like any art form, there never has been a true master, nor will there ever be. We're all still students, really. "

I find writing to be a lot like life in that way. We never fully master either one.

Dwayne wrote: "I'd also go as far as to say that it's not a bad idea to read things outside the genre you're writing in."

I will second this. One of the more valuable things I've done as a writer is to read and study work I don't personally care for. Because someone else does. If I can begin to understand the POV of that "someone else", I feel I grow. This is something I think people can learn to do, and it's something I think others can teach.

On the original question, I'll just echo what has already been said here multiple times: if there's a will, there's a way.

And, as lifelong learners, we need to read, read, read. Watch the masters at work for inspiration. And write, write, write, for the 90 percent of success that is perspiration.

Topic closed at the request of the OP.