Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

How strongly will this group focus on intersectionality? I'm curious, as I think this group has the chance to be great if it avoids works by those whose feminism harms rather than helps (ex: Lena Dunham, Amy Poehler, Tina Fey).

Hillary Clinton, lol.

Then again, Hillary's not a feminist, she just manipulates and uses them.

I would hope that it focuses strongly on intersectionality.

Intersectionality is so so so so important because it branches out to all the different women worldwide. It's a topic we need to discuss.

I hope it will be present in this group since we are all humans of different race, religion, sexual identity/ preference, etc.

I'm all for intersectionality but I'd like to know why the women listed above hurt rather than help. Please consider this an opportunity to educate me, not an argument. I am a young white woman who is very in favor of the rights of the underrepresented, but I do not always know how to express it properly.

I'm also confused Katie. I always saw Amy Poehler and Tina Fey as women who help feminism. They are always fighting for female comedians to be treated as equals with male comedians.

There have already been mini discussions on intersectionality. Check out the LGBT thread if you have any title suggestions from LGBT authors.

I'm white, so it really isn't my place to explain how they've harmed women of color with their feminism, but there are definitely folks out there who they've impacted who have written on it and can explain it better than I could.

I'm so glad this thread exists! I think intersectionality is a huge factor in today's feminism and should definitely be part of a feminist education for young women. I've been trying to get into the habit of reading works from intersectional authors fo a while.

That being said, as a middle class, able bodied, white woman it can be reeeeeally intimidating to newcomers and those just coming to grips with their feminism. During my undergrad I even said "I hate intersectionality. What's the point" in the middle of a women's studies course. Eeek! Now I couldn't imagine saying such a thing!

I think there can be a balance found in reading 'mainstream' / 'white'/ 'problematic' authors or texts because those ideas might be better able to facilitate a discussion that bridges the gap between what is percieved as feminism and the reality of social complexities for people who identify more closely with non-intersectional feminism

Hello!

I'm glad someone already posted this discussion, because intersectionality is also a very important thing for me - if not the most important.

There's no such thing as feminism without intersectionality, as far as I can see it.

I think that mainstream feminism fails a lot of people. It does. And that's why I understand some people can think they do more harm than good.

When, for instance, Jennifer Lawrence, insists on bringing JUST pay inequality as THE problem in Hollywood that's bs (excuse my french). I wish she would also talk about the lack of meaningful roles for black women; the lack of representation of queer people; the whitewashing of stories and so on!

When we have Caitlyn Jenner as the spokesperson for LGBT organisations when she has lived a privileged life and hasn't yet fully grasped the impact of her coming out, that's an issue!

Anyways, I don't want to say that mainstream feminism is BAD. But it doesn't represent me.

I'm definitely going to keep an eye on this topic! I want to work at focussing on intersectionality in my feminism.

Hello everyone! Kelseigh, please can you tell me who has written about the damage of Pohler and fey's feminism? again, I just want to know and have a broader pool of opinions for this interesting topic.

Intersectionality is such an important part of feminism and I'm glad that this comment is getting recognition and starting discussions. I know a lot of new feminists that have privilege don't think much about diversity and focus more on issues that relate to themselves instead of all the issues woman who lack this privilege face. While this issues are often important, if solved they still leave problems for the non-privileged. I think this book club could be a great way for feminists to grow and understand since no one's feminism is important. Reading books that really explain the issues of trans women, women of color, disabled women, or LGBT+ women is vital to achieving the goal of development and and having relative feminism.

I posted about inter-sectional feminism before, and I will repost what I said here as well. This topic deserves to get more recognition. It also gives me a chance to add more to what I said earlier as I do not feel I contributed enough to inter-sectional ideals itself, but rather, what I thought about it compared to feminism.


To be one hundred percent honest, I have, or rather, I had, not idea what "inter-sectional feminism" was before I joined this group. Just think, in less than forty eight hours, I have gained so much more insight this topic! A topic which really should be taught to young men and woman while they are still in school, though that is just my opinion.

I believe that reason that I did not know about inter-sectional feminism is because I just believe everyone should be a supporter of equal rights. We all breath the same air, are warmed by the same sun, and have our sleep minded over by the moon. I never really considered that feminism should be inter-sectional because this is something everyone needs to be apart of, and by everyone joining, we all become one, with our different things to add and learn.

Therefore, taking initiative to remedy my lack of understanding, decided to look up the definition of inter-sectional feminism. It means, "The view that women experience oppression in varying configurations and in varying degrees of intensity." I found this definition in a news article, which can be found by following link. Having read it some way through before finishing this post, I understood why I never knew of inter-sectional feminism. It is because I already knew that different woman, and men, were oppressed in different ways because of their age, gender, heritage, sexuality, and ideals. I am surprised there even needs to be a unique term for it, because I always thought that everyone understood that every person's case of discrimination and oppression was different.

Learning that people need to be educated on inter-sectional feminism was shocking to me, and it makes me realize just how far we have come, but also, just how far we are yet to go in making the world understand that inter-sectional feminism is a real issue, and that even the name is an issue itself. People, of course feminism does not just apply to "white, middle class, cis-gendered and able bodied" citizens around us. It applies to everybody.


So, this is what I said earlier. I did not really think about how different people should tackle the different challenges they face, but rather, I focused more on how everyone should know about inter-sectional feminism and that feminism is not just for a certain type of person.

In response to Jennifer, I do not have much privilege in my life whatsoever. I do not come from money, and everything my mum and I have is because of hard work. But we are both still facing constant struggles in our life with money and other issues such as health. But, from our social class, sometimes feminism can be overlooked. We have "bigger problems" in our lives than worrying about what people think of us. That is how it feels sometimes.

Then I turn on the television. Or I read the news. Maybe I go onto an online forum and see how people refer to others.

Then I get angry.

I never knew that what I was reading would be classes as inter-sectional feminism issues or just oppression for a certain race. I always just took bullying and rudeness as that--bullying and rudeness. It seems like it should be obvious that certain comments are only offensive to some people, or that certain issues are only a problem for others. It isn't. It is such a big issue that, when put right in front of us, we only see a small portion and cannot grasp the bigger picture.

I can only dream of having a representative from each culture or sexuality or religion going to the UN one day to really explain to people how they are oppressed because they are woman. Better yet, a documentary bringing awareness to people about inter-sectional issues and feminism. Even now, I know I am mainly rambling, and that I am probably saying the same thing over and over again. But that is because I am ignorant on this issue and I crave more knowledge about it.

I strongly agree that intersectionality is a major part of feminism. Last semester I took a sociology class that focused in Cultural Diversity in the United States and we learned about intersectionality. I found it completely fascinating. Unfortunately we did not get to the chapter about gender and I was looking forward to that but the semester was just too short. I took the liberty of reading it myself and I was completely interested in every word in that chapter. In a few sections it did cover feminism and intersectionality. I'm glad this topic was created in this group along with the other topics that have been discussed so far. I enjoy reading everyone's opinions and discussions. I'm looking forward to reading more responses along with the book of the month and suggested ones.

This is in response to Savannah. I myself am also a recent intersectional feminist (for a few months now) and I felt the same way, I didn't really understand that women experienced sexism differently because of different obstacles. And classism is another issue that not a lot of people discuss, but definitely creates problems that need to be addressed. (I think I myself neglected to mention it in some of my comments about intersectional feminism). I'm hoping that one of the books we read will delve into the topic so more people can learn about and understand it (including myself).

Hello Everyone:

That is also one of my concerns, and thank you for bringing this up.

I am glad that we are all in this together, and I cannot wait to see the diverse recommendations for feminist books. More importantly, I am hoping that works that also address intersectionality are addressed. This book club has a lot of potential, and more than the recommended books themselves, it is the thoughtful participation of everyone and the (hopefully) fruitful discussion that will about that excites me.

Cheers and looking forward to a wonderful exchange of ideas, no matter how difficult those may be.

Tiffany

Hireko wrote: "Hello everyone! Kelseigh, please can you tell me who has written about the damage of Pohler and fey's feminism? again, I just want to know and have a broader pool of opinions for this interesting t..."

Yes, please. I'm also wondering!

Who exactly is going to tell us about 'minority feminism' if not the minority themselves? If we google 'white feminism' aren't we going to find lots of articles by POCs? Which means we are going to be educated by people of color anyway.

And in this case, I don't really think we're talking about educating. The OP mentioned a number of specific women whose feminism she said was harmful - it's far from unreasonable to ask why she thinks that and where she got her information. No one's being asked to give a class - just to substantiate a claim.

Intersectionality is a necessity for feminists to embrace. While there are many social aspects that give me privileged for example, being white, and university educated, I grew up lower class. When I first started becoming interested in feminism I felt excluded because of the emphasis of "shared experiences", and while this is an important aspect to feminist theory, not all women experience life the same way. There are unique social indicators that can either make the experience of gender more or less challenging, or experienced differently. For example, sexuality, age, class, race, education, and physical ability. I'm hoping this book club will embrace this and we explore the diverse experience of gender. But additionally, consider intersectionality while reading the books to see what social groups are left out of the stories or how they are discussed in the books.

I believe we do have to educate each other on our individual struggles. I have a lot of privilege in my life and I know that, being white and educated primarily, but I also see unique struggles as a woman with SEVERE mental illness, who came from a low class background and worked my way through college, who is pansexual, who is a Buddhist in a very Christian environment, and I wouldn't expect people to understand those struggles unless I communicate them. I think in order to be a truly intersectional feminist, we need to understand that 1. we can't fully understand each other's struggles without listening to each other and 2. we can't expect others to understand our struggles unless we give them something to listen to.

@Jamie Exactly what Astrid said. It's not about educating. We were asking especifically about the argument this thread started on and more articles on the harmful feminists given as an example. Being rude is not the way to start a discussion. Plus, I thought this was about sharing instead of judging.

Intersectionality and Interrelationships go together. For every action, their is a reaction. If I, as a Jew, can not get work because I require to have my Shabbat off, then how does that impact the rest of society? You get enough of us females unemployed (baby in tow, might get pregnant, religious issues, food allergies, or whatever the case may be why the female is not working due to companies refusing to hire them) and taxes get raised, causing more people not be able to spend as much on things we do not need. In turn, people lose jobs because they do not need to make as much product. This goes on long enough and then the economy tanks.

Intersectionality is important, and I think we can discuss its importance here and add in any discussion point you want. I'd be interested to read other points of view and random thoughts. Thanks!

Now to answer why certain types of feminist might harm the movement. (In general, not about any specific person or group per se). In general, for a man to recognize why he needs to change and support equal rights, we need to tailor the message for him and how HIS brain works and thinks. Some women are so in your face, that it turns some men off and may turn off the wrong man - the man who has the power and ability to affect huge change in the world in support of equal rights for all.

We can not at any one time, tailor a message such that it offends no one. This is why many different flavours of feminism is cool! Each flavour can impact another part of society and help get that part of society on board for equal rights.

What do you think?

For those who are asking about education - if you google "Tina Fey feminism" and "Amy Poehler feminism", you will get a lot of hits, most of which focus on the problems with their feminism. I'm not saying that they're awful people, but rather that an understanding of intersectionality is essential, because they are both privileged as rich and white women. I'm a white woman myself so my perspective shouldn't be privileged over those of women of colour, but some of the concerns I have are of both of them using words like "whore" and "bitch", both of which are very gendered words used to insult a particular group of women; usually sex workers.

Here are a few links:


Ultimately though, you really need to do your own research. I can't tell you how to think. Do your own reading about Tina Fey and Lena Dunham and others and decide whether you agree that their feminism is problematic or not. The huge advantage of this reading group (at least, if Emma chooses books that represent different views; if not, we can all suggest our own as well!) is that we can all learn and in doing so gain a greater understanding of our own opinions :)

As a white woman, I do understand the need to want to be educated. The thing is though, that when women of colour are told "educate us!", that essentially means "justify your experience!". People of colour spend their lives justifying their existence due to racism; women of colour spend their lives justifying their existence due to racism and sexism. It's not their job to educate us; it's our job to educate ourselves.

I'm sorry, Gemma, but I disagree.

First of all, as I said above, I don't believe anyone's asking to be educated. Someone voiced an opinion, and as far as I could tell, people were just asking why they had that opinion. If I make a claim about something in a forum, I don't exactly get surprised if people want to know where I got my info.

Second, if I'm discussing feminism with someone and they say Lena Dunham's feminism is harmful then, sure, I can google a couple of articles about that, but I'm not interested in what random people think. I'm interested in what the person I'm discussing it with thinks and what information they've used to form that opinion.
If we discuss something based on two different texts or backgrounds then misunderstandings are pretty much guaranteed.

In this case, no one's being asked to justify their experience, but they can be asked to describe or explain it. And, honestly, if someone isn't willing to explain their opinion or share information, how are we supposed to discuss anything at all?

I don't think it's fair to single out individual women and claim they aren't "doing feminism right". This is just closing off opinions and putting women down. Not everyone will agree with others opinions, but these women are putting themselves out there and trying to make a difference in this patriarchal world and I respect that. Although I too wish to see more diversity in feminism, I could never see someone standing up for women's rights as a bad thing.

Hello Again:

First off, I hope, more than any thread on this group, that maintain a civil and fruitful discussion, just so we can reach a break through.

That said, I think it would be good if we course our conversation/discussion through feminist works that address intersectionality relative to those that do not.

I am a POC, but I do not shut off those around me who may not have the same views.

I am hoping that we can get some readings that address intersectionality, or the nuances in a lived experience through one's social class, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, and so forth.

Intersectionality, as I describe it, is this layered experience.

I am really hoping that we can all go through this together and discover it as move forward.

Cheers and thanks, Team!

Audrey wrote: "I don't think it's fair to single out individual women and claim they aren't "doing feminism right". This is just closing off opinions and putting women down. Not everyone will agree with others op..."

Hi Audrey! although I partly agree that it is great that more women are being outspoken about their feminist views and the changes they want to see in the world, and that there is no "right way" to do feminism, it is still possible that individual women could be harming others with their words. The problem with "white feminism" is not that it is feminist, but rather that it attempts to bring white women and their troubles into the front lines of the movement while forgetting, laughing about, and sometimes even aggressively denying the problems faced by WoC or women belonging to other countries, cultures, class, etc.

For example, I just found this quote by Tina fey here in goodreads, and to me it looks like a very racist type of feminism is going on there: /quotes/3729... . The topic about objectification and sexualization of women is actually a good one to discuss, but the way that she uses WoC (and feminist WoC) as the theme of a joke is harmful for both the women she talks about and also for the movement if we want it to be diverse. People won't want to join a movement in which they feel insulted or treated as if their problems had less value. It's probably about time for us to start making jokes without using other people's race or culture as a punchline... especially when we have important things to say too and they get lost in the midst of a racist punchline.

Anyway, this was just to point out why intersectionality is important, and why it is also important to call each other out when we have harmful views or hurt people on the way. Making mistakes is completely fine, the important thing is to learn from them and change our behavior, and sometimes we need other people to tell us that we are doing something harmful. Hopefully Fey and Poehler will also notice and change their attitudes a bit. It would be cool to see different and more creative jokes out there ;)

Amanda wrote: "For example, I just found this quote by Tina fey here in goodreads, and to me it looks like a very racist type of feminism is going on there: /quotes/3729... "

Her comments, taken in context (I read the book), might also be interpreted to mean that rather than each individual being found attractive in their own way, society has come to expect that each trait considered attractive should be found in all women. In other words, the standard is so high that it is impossible to meet. Society's standards are skewed. She uses as many racial traits as possible as commentary on the fact that it would be quite impossible for all of them to be found in any single person. She is defending women in the best tradition of satire.

There are times when we are so eager for an idea or movement to be embodied by a singular, exceptional spokesperson that we perhaps establish too high an expectation for them. And I feel that this is the situation into which we have injected individuals like Tina Fey. The same way lawyers want to speak for the founding fathers or civil rights leaders claim to know the mind of Martin Luther King Jr. it is simply unfair of us to appropriate their words and actions for our own purposes. We simultaneously want to hold Fey up as a model feminist, but demonize her for not doing so to our standards. And I think this was, roughly, the point Audrey wished to make. While it may not be true that any progress is good progress, I hardly think the line has moved so far toward equality that Fey, or Poehler, or... can be said to be on the wrong side of it.

Yes, we need people to call us out at times. But if everyone with a voice tailored their opinions to suit the desires of the masses they would hardly be interesting enough to keep our attention, quite the double-edged sword. Worse yet, if we allow that an elite few know the "true" nature of a movement or ideal, we have created yet another privileged class, the very opposite of our intended goals.

Here's my issue, I hate the phrase "It's not my job to educate you!" Um, yeah it is. I can handle ignorance, it just means you don't know something. Stupidity is knowing you don't know, and not caring to know.

If I sat around saying "It's not my job to educate you!" Nothing would change! If I didn't go to my own teachers growing up and telling them how calling my people 'injuns' was inexcusable they would still do it!

It's not fun, and yes it gets tiring but it's a fight I choose and I choose it because it's important. It's all related. I go now to my children's school, a decent school but in a VERY white and sheltered area, and am constantly having to explain about race issues that my kids have, culture issues, sexual identity issues and yes feminist issues. Even teachers say things that blow my mind like, "I refuse to use the pronoun 'they/them/their' because it's not grammatically correct!" and convincing teachers that no, you do NOT just pet my child's hair because you yourself have never seen non white hair before and you 'just have to touch it! it's so fuzzy!'

Intersectionality is important, but telling people you won't explain why or what it is, doesn't help, it only hinders. There are people that are privileged. They don't even realize it, and there's nothing they can do about it. It's just the way it is. White cisgender is going to be treated differently, but blaming them or getting upset that they DON'T understand how non white cisgender are treated is only going to make people feel guilty and ashamed without any recourse. How can they help, or change their own thinking if we aren't educating?

I hate to say it but if your view is "It's not my job to explain it to you/educate you!" Then why are you here? Just to complain about it? I'm forty years old, I've been dealing with race, sex, sexual identity, and disability problems all my life. I'm tired. Bone tired some days, but still, I will educate if you want to learn, because me sitting here and complaining about it being unfair but unwilling to do anything to change it, is useless.

Hi!

For me, intersecionality is a really new word. First because I didn't hear it not one single time in spanish until the last year and, when I hear it from someone in the "spanish community" it was in Europe. The word wasn't very popular in latinamerica. But the last two or three months I've been bombed with the word becuase I'd read many books from feminists in the UK, the US and other countries in Europe. I get the importance of intersecionality in the feminist movement but sometimes I think we expect too much from ourselves.

In all this time, I've seen huge misconceptions about Mexico, Latinamerica, the latino community in general. People have said too me that I don't look latino or that I don't look mexican. Sure, I understand why they say it: althoug I don't understand it, sometimes I pass as white... until I open my mouth. I have a really strong accent, really, really strong and the same people who say to me that I don't look mexican as something they see as a compliment, tell me it's a shame I have that accent. I've always feel insulted. By both sentences.

So I always have to explain why the first is never a compliment and why isn't bad that I have an accent. Maybe I'm tired or I hate hearing thing like those, but I also hate the phrase "It's not my job to educate you". I get it, really: It's nobody's job, nobody is forcing you, but you're perpetuing the ignorance and, as Catrice said: I can handle ignorance too, we're all human and it's not our obligation to now everything about everything. But I want things too change, I want it badly, and by only complaining or accusing somebody of having privileges is not going to work.

I have privileges, too. Everyone have some privileges. I'm not white or a man, but I'm a middle class woman, I have access to college education (public, but college education), I have access to internet. We all have privileges and I've always thought that if we want to talk about intersecionality we all have to be consious of that. We aren't guilty for having it, but we cannot talk for others. For example, the latinos: I'm mexican and sometimes I sense that people who don't know a lot about latinamerica thought about the latino people as a single community, but the reality is diferent: we are hugely diverse; it's not the same from one country to another, and a single voice doesn't talk about us all.

So, when I talk about intersecionality, I'm searching diversity of voices and of opinions. It's impossible to completely agree with other person, because the experiences aren't the same, or the knowledge, the influences, etcetera. So, sorry for talking a lot and maybe making some grammar horrors in the way, but that's it how I feel about intersecionality.

This thread makes me want to step out of it again, after having apologised for being a white female, possibly doing feminism the wrong way. I doubt that was the purpose, but since I'm clearly in the boat of uneducated, I'll need a moment to regroup.

deep breath

Okay. The problem is I don't know what I don't know. If no minority talks, I will never know. I'm also in a few minorities, but all of a sudden I feel close to defensive, like my life experience isn't valuable enough, or challenging enough compared to those of others. I can't read minds, so help me understand. I don't want to offend, but if there is a chance I might when simply being myself, I'd rather shut up.

Aglaea wrote: "This thread makes me want to step out of it again, after having apologised for being a white female, possibly doing feminism the wrong way. I doubt that was the purpose, but since I'm clearly in th..."

Please don't feel the need to leave. One thing I have learned, in groups I'm in on minorities, DV, and religion and spirituality minorities, it's that YOUR experience matters!

No it may not be as 'bad' as someone else's. Maybe you haven't had to face some of the same battles others have, but that doesn't make YOUR battles any less!

There are those people with a chip on their shoulder, they feel maginalized and don't feel the need to explain why or how, as if "You should just know!" Then leave them with their pain, they don't want your help.

There are those that do! Those that are willing to share their stories. To have a talking circle and listen and learn as well as speak and teach. We can't make threads ONLY for those willing to do both, willing to have a talking circle of sorts here on the world wide web, so you may run into those that only wish to complain and not change anything. Those hurt but unable or unwilling to explain their hurt and find answers.

Stay, learn from those that DO communicate, and then share. Share your own experiences. Even vastly different, even if you feel they are 'less', they are valuable and I for one, want to listen.

So stay. Share.

Aglaea wrote: "This thread makes me want to step out of it again, after having apologised for being a white female, possibly doing feminism the wrong way. I doubt that was the purpose, but since I'm clearly in th..."

I often feel the same, don't worry. And I'm in something that, in the US, is considered a minority.

First, I don't think there is a wrong way to doing feminism. Of course, maybe because you have certain experiences, you don't know a lot of things. I feel far more comfortable talking about issues I've experienced than talking about things I don't know. We are all human and human make a lot of mistakes, but, as Catrice say, we can learn a lot and also teach people about things we experience or know and they don't.

Thanks to both of you for saying that. I feel half the joy of interaction is to listen. I love stories and getting an increased understanding of what makes people tick, and I may be vocally passionate around this topic, but personally I'm not here just to complain, but to learn as well.

I can't fix the world unless I know what is wrong with it, and I never had a choice regarding my skin colour... That doesn't mean I choose to ignore problems that others might be facing, though, nor that I haven't had my fair share of challenges, rock bottom and all that.

Anyway, I live for lively discussions no less. Talking can also mean asking questions :)

Absolutely! Which is why I always tell people, I'm an open book! Ask me anything! Of course, few do but that's okay I'm a great listener too. ;)

Catrice wrote: "Absolutely! Which is why I always tell people, I'm an open book! Ask me anything! Of course, few do but that's okay I'm a great listener too. ;)"

Can I just say that I feel really lucky to get to know people like you here, Catrice? Your previous posts in this thread were pure gold.

I remember being checking my IG once and finding a pic with a lot of comments. It was from a feminist POC feed, and she was presenting yet another case of white privilege and racism. Her caption featured the following warning (not the exact quote, but something along these lines, written in all caps, too) - "I'm warning all of you, white crybabies! Don't you even dare to come here with your hurt feelings or I will ban you!!!!!" I felt compelled to respectfully offer my opinion, say that while some of us do not acknowledge our privilege, then again some of us do and are willing to be aware and educate ourselves and that her warning was rather harsh.
Well, I guess I fitted her criteria for 'white crybaby' pretty nicely, because she removed my comment immediately and blocked me. I thought it was sad. Because of my skin colour, I am privileged indeed, but she was being arrogant and righteous, too - and she would never acknowledge it.
I think that when you're passionate about something / deeply care about something, and you find someone along the way who does not know a lot on that topic, you should only be pleased to share your ideas and thoughts with them. Now, if we're talking a 5000 words essay to be delivered within a deadline, um, no, go educate yourself indeed. People asking honest questions and getting honest answers in turn? That shouldn't be a problem.

I find it so strange that there is a whole world called intersectionality that I didn't know about and didn't even realise I was a part of. There is so much to learn and fight for.

I believe that in some way, since each of us are part of this, we will naturally have an understanding of the hardships of our discriminations.

However, we have to own who we are and be strong enough to tell others since, each of our experiences will be different due to the fact that we react in different ways.

We can't expect others to read from other sources, then be able to truly understand our individual situation,

Amy Poehler has allowed jokes that sexualized Blue Ivy, a toddler, on her show.

Tina Fey uses racist tropes constantly and has a white woman playing a Native American.

Lena Dunham molested her sister.

That is why the feminism these women preach is harmful.

Some people with privledges tend to get defensive because they say: "How can I be priveledged? I struggled a lot to get where I am today." Being privledged doesn't mean you never struggle. And it doesn't make you a bad person. It just means that you're not going to experience disadvanteges based on certain aspects of your identity.

To Ana: I can understand that you were upset, because the feminist POC wasn't very nice. But I interprete your response as basicaly saying "But not all white people are racist/ignorant!" Minorities can feel silenced by this because they criticize certain systems but are misinterpreted as hating the people who benefit from them. Kat Blaque perfectly explains in her video "#NOTALLCISHETS + INTERNAL BIASES" that dominant groups use this to reject the responsibility to call out their own internal biases. She says that "this conversation is never about hating white people (...). They’re always about systems that are in place that benefit these groups" (...) But "when you recenter the conversation on you, you perpatuate the problem." The solution should be to "recognizing that these conversation are about systems that maintain certain biases and not about every person who benefits from them."

US teens are diverse and altruistic. What MTV asked over 1,000 13 and 14-year-olds in the US what they would name their generation, they picked the Founder Generation. Runner-up terms were in the same vein: bridge, builder, regenerator, and navigator. The teens said Millennials were disruptive “of the existing framework of race, gender and sexuality equality;� in contrast 90% of the Founders want to “build a better world� and 91% are optimistic they can achieve this goal. Diversity will be valued in the new world as they’ve learned from the Internet to understand people from different backgrounds and starting in 2011, a majority of the Founders are people of color. They said their generation doesn't feel “pressure to stick to a mold of who they should be� (79%). MTV researcher Jane Gould reported they have “a stunningly intuitive sense of the changing times they’ve been born into and the huge opportunity to make new history.�

Intersectionality isn't just important. To me, it is by far the most exciting thing about the feminist movement today! The oppression of women is not a separate phenomenon as the oppression of, for example, Blacks. It is a sociological structure where some people are treated as less and others are treated as more. When we only fight for ourselves, we do nothing to change the underlying psychological and sociological problems of the world.

When I was a young child I had the naive notion that maybe one day all of us would be the same shade of light brown, and our racial problems would disappear. As an adult, I realize that we've created these problems because we (as a society - hopefully not the members of this group) want to see differences. We want a reason to treat some people as less and others as more. If we were all the same race, we would find some other criteria on which to rank people.

When women fight for rights just for women, and Blacks just fight for Blacks, and gays just fight for gays, and immigrants, religious minorities, disabled people, etc. each just fight for themselves, they may gain rights for themselves, but society will just find someone else to put down.

I long for a movement where we fight for the rights for all people. I know feminism will always have a root in fighting for women, and that's okay, but it is exciting to see it start to branch out and if not fight for all people, at least fight for all kinds of women. That is more than I see in any other cohesive movement.

So articulately presented Evan

Etta that is. Sorry I got your name wrong.

Thanks for bumping the thread :)

As for "it's not my job to educate you", I take that as "do your homework". Many things aren't really that controversial, not if you avoid cherrypicking the articles that allow you to remain right and innocent. People usually say that when there are lots of articles online, if only you're willing to google and read. imo in this case it can be fair game to find a specific article and ask whether the person agrees, unless you're randomly entering their personal space to demand an opinion.

A great description of feminism I've seen is that it supports the "feminine" qualities in all people, regardless of the gender identity (along with freedom for all women and female-read people). For example, anti-gay sentiments are generally based in misogyny*, and gay men often get feminine slurs directed at them.
*including some cis men's fear of being treated by gays in the same entitled way as they treat women

Similarly, men with health issues are sometimes compared to women. Now, I don't think that feminism alone is enough to help gay or disabled men, but many feminist sites write about various kinds of discrimination, generally including the ways men get discriminated against.

The problem with the internet is that due to the sheer volume of information and various sources it's impossible to quickly find credible sources at all times, covering all the issues.

Personally I find it extremely arrogant to tell someone else "it's not my job to educate you", if we are aware of the good sources already. Because sharing those sources through a dialogue with others (as is being done currently in the trans* thread to mention one example) will create a mutual understanding and mutual starting point much sooner. But if we want to keep status quo with no mutual vocabulary going, by all means.

The way I see it, the more people learn about all of the issues others are facing the sooner, the better off we all will be. This is why I cringe when others are telling some to only listen, because most of the people hearing they should only listen are also at the receiving end of various inequalities. If it isn't skin colour it's gender, and if it isn't gender it's something related to sexuality, and if it isn't that then it's something related to disability, and there is no disability then it could be something in regards to income, and if it isn't that then...

Yes, some people in this group unfortunately face oppression that others don't, but there are yet others with their own set of daily challenges. Which is why I once again feel like mentioning oppression olympics (and that white crybaby post Ana saw was totally out of line). The sooner we all assemble under a "we" umbrella the better. The sooner we unite in rhetoric rather than create a divide consciously and voluntarily, the better.