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The 2015 New Years Eve Attacks in #Cologne (#Köln)


This is a Discussion about real rape culture and more specifically about The 2015 New Years Eve Attacks in #Cologne (#Köln). Being form the United States I only know from what I have read and what friends form Europe have told me about these attacks and similar behavior happening Across Europe. Therefor I don't believe that it is appropriate for me to speak or lead this conversation discussion. I wish people to share feeling, experiences, information and have a open dialogue on this and other matters like it. I feel that issues like these are real example of rape culture and violence against women. What is worse is that these real issues and violations of human rights are being swept under the rug and not discussed or viewed by the media and main stream culture. I would just like to say that I do not want this to turn into a discussion of discrimination against Muslims, refugee immigrants or men in general. Please be truthful and honest but refrain form discriminating speech.
Also because i feel that video's are a good way to inform and illustrate points I have posted two youtube video's on this subject. This video's are by Sargon of Akkad and although he speaks negatively about Feminism form time to time I have found these video very objective and informative. If you wish to watch them feel free.

The 2015 New Years Eve Attacks in #Cologne (#Köln)



Aftermath of the #Cologne New Years Eve Attacks

Dear James, I have just read the prayer for the repost. Here it is. Hope, it is understandable (?)
Best wishes to all of you
BOI

Translator used:

Since I live in Germany and personal experiences have made with violence, me the origin of this website has deeply touched. She is encouraging. Keep it up :)
Among the recent events in Germany, I can only say that women are harassed sexually by refugees not only since Sylvester. Personally, I think Mrs Merkel for a clever woman, but I feel at the same time as a woman of her abandoned because they and all our government leaders will not have noticed what happened. Almost worse the trial has been trying to cover up the origin of the perpetrators. I take this as a direct slap in the face for every victim. Especially when you consider how much it costs to overcome, to confide in someone or to go to the police for help. But the mockery does not stop. Anyone who wants to give us women in Germany behavior tips on how we move and where we can stop us / to, thus curtailing our won in recent Jahrzahnten rights (or to put it mildly 'privileges') on freedom and equality. Besides the fact that it is sexist to want us to discipline women, one need only ask around among friends and learns firsthand so that women repeatedly harassed by refugees, insulted with dirty words and are touched inappropriately. It hurts and leaves a helpless disbelief and back, because you can not understand how someone who seeks protection in another country, to such a vile behavior can be capable of.

Da ich in Deutschland lebe und persönlich Erfahrungen mit Gewalt gemacht habe, hat mich die Entstehung dieser Webseite zutiefst berührt. Sie macht Mut. Weiter so :)
Zu den jüngsten Vorfällen in Deutschland kann ich nur sagen, dass Frauen nicht erst seit Sylvester sexuell von Flüchtlingen bedrängt werden. Ich persönlich halte Frau Merkel für eine kluge Frau, fühle mich aber zeitgleich als Frau von ihr im Stich gelassen, da sie und unsere gesamte Regierungsspitze nicht gemerkt haben will, was passiert. Fast noch schlimmer ist der Versuch gewesen, die Herkunft der Täter vertuschen zu wollen. Ich werte dies als direkten Schlag ins Gesicht für jedes Opfer. Noch dazu, wenn man bedenkt, wie viel Überwindung es kostet, sich jemandem anzuvertrauen oder zur Polizei zu gehen, um Hilfe zu erhalten. Doch der Hohn hört nicht auf. Jeder, der uns Frauen in Deutschland Verhaltenstipps geben will, wie wir uns fortbewegen und wo wir uns aufhalten dürfen/sollen, beschneidet damit unsere in den vergangenen Jahrzahnten erkämpften Rechte (oder vorsichtig ausgedrückt 'Privilegien') auf Freiheit und Gleichberechtigung. Abgesehen davon, dass es sexistisch ist, uns Frauen maßregeln zu wollen, braucht man sich nur im Freundeskreis umhören und erfährt so aus erster Hand, dass Frauen immer wieder von Flüchtlingen bedrängt, mit schmutzigen Worten beschimpft und unsittlich berührt werden. Es tut weh und lässt einen hilflos und ungläubig zurück, weil man nicht verstehen kann, wie jemand, der in einem anderen Land Schutz sucht, zu solch einem widerwärtigen Verhalten fähig sein kann.

Boi wrote: "Dear James, I have just read the prayer for the repost. Here it is. Hope, it is understandable (?)
Best wishes to all of you
BOI

Translator used:

Since I live in Germany and personal experiences ..."

Thank you so much for sharing your post, best wishes to you and the women in Germany and across Europe. You should not have to face this kind of injustice from men or from your own country. I wish you all the best and hope things will get better. I think the best thing to do is to speak about it and raise awareness of what's going on. Thanks again and stay safe.

BOI
Vielen Dank für Ihre Post, beste Wünsche zu Ihnen und den Frauen in Deutschland und in ganz Europa. Sie sollten nicht zu dieser Art von Ungerechtigkeit von Männern oder von Ihrem eigenen Land konfrontiert. Ich wünsche Ihnen alles Gute und hoffen, die Dinge besser werden. Ich denke, das Beste, was zu tun ist, um darüber zu sprechen und das Bewusstsein von dem, was vor sich geht. Nochmals vielen Dank und sicher bleiben.

I think we should take into consideration that sexual violence and agression has been occuring in Germany before New Year's Eve as well. It's just being publicized much more now that refugees are involved. During the Fasching parade and the Oktoberfest, groping is very common.

I think all of these women are equally victims and we shouldn't encourage this idea that refugees and foreigners are more likely to commit this crime.

According to the law in Germany, sexual incidents in which the victim has not fought back are not illegal (Section 177 of the Criminal Code of Germany). This should be changed and it shouldn't be just because of the refugees, even German men commit these crimes.

Anja wrote: "I think we should take into consideration that sexual violence and agression has been occuring in Germany before New Year's Eve as well. It's just being publicized much more now that refugees are i..."

That is a fair point and I don't think it's because they are refugees that they are being held accountable. It is because they attacked and sexual raped women, that is the important thing to remember here. I do think that it has been swept under the rug because they are refugees though. Also They have been Identified as foreigners immigrants by both the victims, the police and themselves. Also a lot of evidence points to them being immigrants and this being a premeditated act. Also these attacks are being described as planned and cared out by large groups of men, which dose make them different form individual counts of rape. This behavior has been described as similar to ones that are seen if third world countries against women.
Again this is not about blaming a group of people or religion. but more about speaking openly about the issues and raising awareness, so that it can be prevented in the future and that German women and across Europe are safe.
But you would no more then I would. Being from Germany can you share more about it or your personal views?

Translator used:

Thank you.
The events in the cities of Cologne and Hamburg are the most widespread. Over the past few weeks, the ads have heaped. Thus, in the link below the 'Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung' reported in Köln 'are 676 ads received. Half concerned sexual assaults'. 'Stuttgart announces 72 criminal charges ...', 'at the Hamburg police 205 ads are now received ...'
The matter is in my opinion the whole, very tragic. And there were also known other messages, for example, there were reports that some women could be protected and saved. Here is the link to a detailed report of a newspaper in German:






Vielen Dank.

Die Ereignisse in den Städten Köln und Hamburg sind die am weitesten verbreiteten. Im Laufe der vergangenen Wochen haben sich die Anzeigen gehäuft. So wird in dem unten aufgeführten Link der 'Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung' berichtet, in Köln 'seien 676 Anzeigen eingegangen. Die Hälfte betreffe sexuelle Übergriffe'. 'Stuttgart meldet 72 Strafanzeigen ...', 'bei der Hamburger Polizei sind inzwischen 205 Anzeigen eingegangen ...'
Die Angelegenheit ist meiner Meinung nach insgesamt betrachtet sehr tragisch. Es wurden aber auch andere Meldungen bekannt, zum Beispiel gab es Berichte, dass einige Frauen geschützt und gerettet werden konnten. Hier der Link zu einem ausführlichen Bericht einer Zeitung auf deutsch:

Hi everyone,

I am a German woman and live about 30 kilometers from Cologne and I'd like to tell you how I feel about what happened.

Of course, the most prominent feeling is disgust - at what has been done to those women - but even more about how politics and media treated it.

MEDIA: so, we all know the media loves to create fear and hate because it boosts sales. In this particular matter the media ONLY made it a big deal because so many of the offenders were not German citizens and called the reasons for these men's behaviour "rooted in their cultural norms". If that REALLY were the case I'd have a couple of questions regarding Oktoberfest... and Karneval (if you're a woman and want to be treated like a person and nit a piece of meat, avoid Oktoberfest and Karneval at all costs)

POLITICS: Mrs. Merkel obviously responded in a "We cannot and will not tolerate this behaviour and we will punish the responsible parties with full power of our laws." - which completely ignores the existence of rape culture in our country. She couldn't just sweep this particular matter under the rug, though because more than 120 filed charges (theft, assault, sexual abuse...) are difficult to ignore. Yet women everywhere are still waiting for someone to actually DO something about it.

And then there is the mayor of Cologne, Mrs. Henriette Reker, who suggested that women avoid large groups of men - especially if they look foreign (because obviously) and also said "of course there's always the option of keeping an arm's length distance to men in general" (yes, she really said that. no, I can't believe it either but you can check out the twitter #einearmlänge ). So again, instead of acknowledging the real problem there were a lot of empty phrases with a side dish of victim blaming. Classy.

COUNTY POLITICS: of course people were outraged and demanded answers to what exactly went wrong so that something like this won't happen again. The guilty party was quickly found (the lowest link in the political food chain): the police.
To explain, there is ALWAYS Polizei stationed outside of the train station in Cologne, as well as Bundespolizei inside. The train station is highly frequented and where there are a lot of people, lots of fighting happens. However, what county politics doesn't like to talk about is how THEY cut the budgets for the police forces stationed inside and outside of the train station meaning: There are 10 officers of Bundespolizei on duty at all times. 10.
Yes, police forces outside were more than usual, yet New Years Eve requires police presence in more than one part of town and the number of people who stood in front of the train station is estimated between 1000 and 2000. You don't need to be a genius to figure out that there's only one way this could have turned out if things went sour. And they did.
Yes, it's absolutely their fault. (insert eye roll)

So, where does all of this leave us?
Still, the existence of rape culture is being ignored.
Still, women are not taken seriously.
Still, we'd rather send our daughters to martial arts and self defense classes than raise our sons into decent humans.
Still, it's our fault.

How do I feel about it? I feel like screamimg a lot of four letter words.

Loudly.

Anja wrote: "I think we should take into consideration that sexual violence and agression has been occuring in Germany before New Year's Eve as well. It's just being publicized much more now that refugees are i..."

"According to the law in Germany... "

Translator used:

The Depatte about adapting or changing laws is, sadly, only comes after the incidents at Sylvester. Sexual offenses are to be (for a link to related news I would be grateful) thus future punished harder.
The fact is that it not change the fact how difficult it is for an affected woman to 'come out' as a victim. I myself do me hard in order to talk about certain events in my life.

Christina wrote: "I am European, currently live in Germany and I have friends in Cologne. I'm also fluent in German so I have the great advantage of being able to read the local as well as the international press re..."
Are these Group attacks new or unique in Germany and in other parts of Europe?

But even the Police in Germany can't take someone in custody without evidence. The investigations has to be very careful and this can't be done in few days. It may be annoying, but you cannot bend the law according to your will. We have already to fight against xenophobia. We do not need a witch hunt due to speculations. Don't blame the police, blame the media because they play with the fire.

James wrote: "Christina wrote: "I am European, currently live in Germany and I have friends in Cologne. I'm also fluent in German so I have the great advantage of being able to read the local as well as the inte..."

It's not. In bigger cities it probably happens about every weekend. To be honest, it's the reason I rarely go out anymore. It usually happens on a much smaller scale (groups of 3-5 men & cat calling/verbal abuse/ groping happens in clubs ALL the time, rarely out on the street). Just in most cases bystanders don't ignore what's happening. Which is tricky because within those last couple of years a new "trend" evolved: group of young men harrasss young woman>somebody steps in and helps women>women go home>group of men starts stalking person who helped women>group of men assaults helper and beats him/her into a coma-or worse.

So yes, feeling safe when going out in a bigger city is not something that happens.

Janos wrote: "But even the Police in Germany can't take someone in custody without evidence. The investigations has to be very careful and this can't be done in few days. It may be annoying, but you cannot bend ..."

agreed on all accounts.

I agree with a lot of what you all said. First they (media etc.) tried to blame the police until some days after the incidents. This was the first big news. Meanwhile the head of the police in Köln was dismissed. (He may not have known what happened... maybe he was on holliday... I don't know for sure and I would not rely on boulevard press.) Far from this I think we can not blame the police where is not enough police to prevent such happenings.
Next was a subject of discussion that women (!) should change their behaviour and avoid crowds etc. etc. Ironically suggested by a woman... I wonder how you will avoid a crowd of men willingly moving towards you, when you are alone on the street. Good luck. If someone is near you, willing to help, you may get out of it. So I ask myself: Shall we stay at home all day? How do we get home after work? Most of us are no VIP-persons protected by security.
Now, three weeks later, many has been said. But several hundred criminal complaints, if sexual delicts or 'just' mobbing or stealing, can not be downplayed. We know for sure that women were attacked by men. This happens very often. You are on one side of the street, then some meters beyond you spot 3 or 10 men coming in your direction, calling you names... This. Is. A. Horrible. Feeling.
These things do not only happen in big cities, but there is more press of course, more media, more attention. All of this makes me very sad. What shall we do? Sit around and wait for better times? How sad.

Boi wrote: "I agree with a lot of what you all said. First they (media etc.) tried to blame the police until some days after the incidents. This was the first big news. Meanwhile the head of the police in Köln..."
What do you think should happen, or what would you like to see happen? I mean what kind of steps would be a positive steps forward in your opinion? With the news, your government, the police? Is this a new and growing probably, or has it kind of been there for awhile?

@ James:

This is not an easy toppic. First we need enlightenment/education, talks, debates and patience. It can drag on, to provide clarity. Some see a headline on Twitter or a magazine and think they know all about it. Rumors spread quickly. But who was ultimately really involved? You have to dig deeper to find a cause, especially to prevent things like that in the future. If we now, only three weeks later, stop talking about it, it will not get better sooner or later.
We also need assistance that encourage the women concerned. Many victims do not dare to display the incidents, because they fear it will not change anything. The figures on the criminal charges are therefore only as reliable as the women are brave to come out. Unfortunately, some men seem to be subject to error, women are there for entertainment. But just because we are wearing a summer dress or go dancing, that does not mean we are 'at leisure'. It's part of our culture in Germany to visit a festival. I want to decide who touches me when and where. Anyone who does not respect that needs to be punished. The other way around. If a man wants nothing from me, I have to respect that.
From the Government I wish harsh words that make clear that aggressive behavior towards women is not tolerated.

I wish that the politicians would take their promises seriously, such as changing the law to ensure that the Istanbul Convention is fulfilled. We need proper laws in place that prosecute the behaviour regardless of who commits the crime.

Has the problem grown because of certain migrants from first world countries bringing these behavior to Germany and across Europe? looking at the Middle East and North Africa,there dose seem to be a sexist oppression to women within the cultures. Do you feel this is part of what the growing problem is? Or is it German culture as well?

I do apologize I didn't mean to imply that it was German culture or tradition... that is not what i meant and worded my question poorly. I guess what I'm asking is do German people feel
that these growing attacks on women are related by something cultural or mindset based. or is it felt that this is just a rise in crime. What do people feel is the reason for this growth in attacks on women ? What is German women's perspectives on this?

Of course they do, Eric. That's happening everywhere around the world. Tell me one single country on this planet where women were not bullied by men. (Think about that: Even the pope admitted that nuns were 'used' by his fellowers to wash the mens underwear. He said the men better sould wash them by themself and sent the nuns praying.) We all make mistakes but it is important to do better in the future.
No problem, James. I'll try to explain. These massive attacks against women is something that has increased. What we can say is that all witnesses (victims, police) identified the attackers as 'people with an immigrant background'. Let's make this clear: Not everyone who comes to Germany for help etc. is a bully. Most of them just need help. There were men from other countries that tried to protect women as well. My link from above shows several examples for this.

Noteworthy the fact that feminists don't show themselves in no way in this situation. Though, theoretically, they have to be among the first, who should be interested in what that all who raised this wave of sexual violence were immediately identified and punished, regardless of status. This is what they would have to demand from authorities.

Nikita wrote: "Noteworthy the fact that feminists don't show themselves in no way in this situation. Though, theoretically, they have to be among the first, who should be interested in what that all who raised th..."

EVERYONE should demand the same from authorities. Feminists are scared like all women - they are women. And honestly? It's a situation that makes you feel a bit powerless, especially when the media tries to make it about the refugees and no one knows the right way to approach it. Are you seriously blaming feminists for this?

Nikita wrote: "Noteworthy the fact that feminists don't show themselves in no way in this situation. Though, theoretically, they have to be among the first, who should be interested in what that all who raised th..."

Feminists did address this issue. There were detailed reports and discussions about this after Cologne.

No, Lara, I do not blame, I'm puzzled mostly.

It doesn't request a lot of courage to write something official like: "We, feminists of Germany/France, strongly condemn the barbaric acts of sexual violence, which took place in Cologne in the New Year's Eve of 2015. We believe that refugee status is not an indulgence, which exempts from the prosecution for the committed unlawful acts and we are demanding from the government bodies, law enforcement agencies to stop the vicious practice of concealing and pressure on the victims of crimes committed against women of Germany. We are demanding the immediate, transparent investigation of the committed crimes and the responsibility of all those responsible and so on and so forth.".

Feminists postulate solidarity and if so, then all the victims of the violence should have to be provided with all the possible psychological and legal support, so that all the occurred incidents have reached the court. It also doesn't require a lot of courage and I think on forces for a vast network of the feminist organizations in Europe. No need to catch criminals - this is work of police and special services.

The feminist organizations need only to create the necessary informational background of intolerance (they posses experience), and thereby encourage government bodies to take actions. Discussions, of course, are necessary, but not enough, actions should be adequate to the situation, for the sake of security and women's rights, which are so dear to feminists.

By the way, the word "refugees" in relation to the young, agressive and strong men, who I recently often see on the TV screen makes me laugh. They seems more like the conquistadors of the modernity, whose onslaught and masculinity flabby, pampered, feminized and tolerant Europe can not oppose anything at all. This was many times warned by various authors.

I think that passivity and confusion of the feminist organizations, including government bodies is not so much due to a fear, but rather due to the bankruptcy of the concept that migration (fundamental pillar of the political platform of feminism) is a failsafe remedy of solving of the demographic problems. Life has demonstrated the futility of this way and here brewing an existential impasse, since the promotion of fertility is in contradiction with the concept of women's independence.

Nikita wrote: "No, Lara, I do not blame, I'm puzzled mostly.

It doesn't request a lot of courage to write something official like: "We, feminists of Germany/France, strongly condemn the barbaric acts of sexual ..."
I really have the same view as you do...but being from America I don't feel it is my place to comment. I don't have the information first hand.... what I I've seen and read makes me feel that feminism really didn't address the issue, or didn't address the truths of the issue. Here in America feminist walk around talking about rape culture. But when a real rape culture is presented they don't talk about it. They take the same approach as the liberal government dose...which is very very sad and kind of show were feminism loyalties line Up with. They care more about their political standing rather then about the safety of individual people. They are more about a social collectivism and how to kept that in place. Note when I say feminist I am referring to feminist organizations and Feminism in political and areas of power, not individual people who identify as feminist. The only thing that they said was that these attacks were because of the actions of men and male behaviors. This is a safe approach blaming all men for these attacks, turning all men in to the scapegoats for this real rape culture. This is just wrong first of all and it doesn't address the real issues about oppressive practices against women being brought in from first world countries. I'm not blaming Immigrants, what I'm saying is that the first world cultures practices that oppress women should not be aloud from anyone.

As I said before, and I'll say it again, feminists have condemned the attacks. Just as they condemn other attacks.

Why don't we women expect men to distance themselves from these attacks? After all the attackers were men. As you said it doesn't require a lot of courage to do so. However, why should they. They didn't do the attacks.

To declare that it is all men, generalizes the issue and doesn't help to finding cause or solution. It also lumps all men together and accuses all men that they are capable of these acts against women. This is not the chase at all and again dose not help to find the cause or solution. Feminist should speak out about this because they claim to stand up for women's rights. Just them speaking about it in a truthful way would raise awareness and allow for a dialogue to be established. That is the first steps...not being afraid to address issues openly and honestly.

What I'm trying to tell you is that feminists have spoken up about it.

I live in Cologne. After having spent 12 years in the US and having just returned back to Germany a few months ago I am in shock about the assaults and the general standing of women in this country. The backwards progress in Germany with regards to equal standing of women, and how it seems no longer possible as a woman to walk alone at night, is something that I would not have thought possible 15 years ago.
I have to admit, I am worried and I find it more important than ever to speak up, direct the conversation, and work towards closing the yet again increasing gender divide.

There is so much to do.

No, Anja, I don't mind to lend a helping hand. But, girls, let's play fair. When it's all quiet you are independent fighters for equality, who hate patriarchy. You studying each man under a microscope in searchings for a potential rapist. And when in your life invades real violence you shout: "Men, help us, save us!!!"

This is not one I'm saying. I was saying that you expect all feminists to condemn this act is the same as asking all men to say they are not like this.

As I keep saying, women are already doing something against sexual agression in Germany. I don't know how many times I should say this.

Anja, I agree with you! What I found most frightening after Cologne was how formerly very conservatice politicans used feminism for arguments against refugees. Behind the worries about the safety of women, there was a hidden a lot of unspoken racism - I think.

Nikita wrote: "No, Anja, I don't mind to lend a helping hand. But, girls, let's play fair. When it's all quiet you are independent fighters for equality, who hate patriarchy. You studying each man under a microsc..."

Sorry, but this is a very strange train of thoughts - and a way to unprecise generalization. Being a feminist doesnt automatically mean to condemn (or hate) all men or to "study them under a microscope in search for a potential rapists." For me for exemaple, feminisim is in now way about men vs. women, it's about creating equality together. And about your last sentence about "when real violence is invading": What do you wanna say with that? Helping another person who is in danger is something I expect from every decent human.

But shouldn't real conversations about refugee and immigrants be discussed...If these acts are being committed and they are being linked across Europe to acts by people from third world countries then there is a real conversation to be had. I don't think real conversations and truths should be held back because people are afraid to be called racist. Nor should people be afraid because of consequences of what extremist might do. It is not every immigrant, probably not the majority of immigrants. But cultures form the middle east and Northern Africa do have oppression of women and real rape cultures. If these ideas are moving into Europe then the European people need to speak out against it for the good of your society, and people.

I think what Nikita is saying is the the feminist organisations took the easy way in the attacks by linking them to all men instead of refugee immigrant men. There is a big difference in saying that these attacks are systemic and systematic of all men rather then these attacks are related to middle eastern and north african rape culture.
It's like the feminist blame the men of Germany but at the same time want the mens protection against the real threats.

I really do kind of understand Nikita anger. It dose seem that at least in the past Feminism has been an attack on men and male identify. The blame for everything bad has be put on men. Then the HeforShe, telling men that even though men have problems that they still need to advocate and support all women. When something bad happens, like these attacks, it's because of male oppression and all men need to support and protect women because of it.

Thanks for the comments, James. I am with you in the point that no truth should be held back but be discussed openly. But at the same time it makes me sad when I see how sexism and racism get mixed up in the current discussion we ware having in Germany: As I said before, a lot of conservative politicians call themselves suddenly feminsts because they can use women's rights against refugees - most of them people who flew because their lives were in danger.

I think the best way to deal with it is better integration. I dont believe in simple (thus convenient) explanations that blame an ethnic group or religion. Studies prove it's always a certain evil environment (poor economy, authoritarian regimes, very patriarchal organized social structures...) that promote sexual assaults from men towards women.

The other point: It's not true that the German feminist organisations took the "easy way" by linking rape to all men instead of immigrant men (I wonder where you got that from, Nikita? Do you have a link or sth?) There is a lively discussion going on about the oppression of women in Arabic countries, also among feminists. Alice Schwarzer, one of our most famous feminists e.g. critizes current Muslim culture in a strong way.
And OF COURSE there has been (and still is) a lot of discussion about rape culture and opression of women in Germany and from German men as well. Because it exists in Western societies as well.

I think we should keep in mind that not all of the perpetrators at New Year's Eve were refugees.

As well as remembering that Germans have also done these crimes.

I don't agree with Alice Schwarzer's opinion however and I do know from several feminists, that they consider her to be very extreme in her opinions of men.

Anja wrote: "I think we should keep in mind that not all of the perpetrators at New Year's Eve were refugees.

As well as remembering that Germans have also done these crimes.

I don't agree with Alice Schwarze..."

I dont agree with her either - it was just to point out that German feminists are not homogenic united in one opinion but do argue and discuss about the relationship between (German, Arabic, whatever) men and women as well.

James, thanks for support.

Eva wrote: "Anja wrote: "I think we should keep in mind that not all of the perpetrators at New Year's Eve were refugees.

As well as remembering that Germans have also done these crimes.

I don't agree with A..."
I understand not agreeing with someone on a particular topic, but that shouldn't be a reason to dismiss their views totally. I don't think anyone has all the answers but even extreme views have validity and are worthy of examination. Alice Schwarze has worked for equality for many years and has been very influential in removing obstacles to women's independence and equality. Do you know many people have criticized Gloria Steinem for the same reasons? Have a look at how many MRA websites attack her and her views.

Eva wrote: "Thanks for the comments, James. I am with you in the point that no truth should be held back but be discussed openly. But at the same time it makes me sad when I see how sexism and racism get mixed..."

No Eva i didn't get that view from Nikita, and i just want to say that i am from america so these attacks got literally no coverage in the states. everything i know about it is What what i read and what was told to me. My family is form Israel originally so i do have knowledge of what real rape culture and oppression looks like. That is why i think it is important to speak out truthfully about oppressive cultures. Not about individual people, not about religions, the practices that exist.
The fact is that the majority of refugees that immigrant are men, and that only a percentage of them are actually from Syria.
I think main stream Feminism has been much to silent on this issue at least form the rest of the worlds stand point.
The politicians, the police all have.
I mean these issues were't even being discussed on this site until I started this thread. They would rather talk about, "Why can't women walk around topless?" They don't care that in some parts of the world that action would get a women raped and stoned.

Violence against women is NEVER okay. The perpetrators need to be found and brought to justice and dealt with accordingly. If refugees happen to be amongst them, well then I'm sorry the German government should seriously consider deportation. Sexual abuse is a serious offense and there should be a zero tolerance policy with regards to it. Any young man, regardless of what country they're from should know better and understand that this kind of behavior is unacceptable. This is basically a slap in the face to the German government and its people for their generous hearts, open arms and hospitality that they've so kindly extended to the Syrian people. What has happened to these young women is a travesty. It really is and it's so unfortunate. Shame on these men for what they did, they should've known better and because of their despicable actions, they have now shed a bad light on the genuinely good Syrian refugees as a whole.

First, not all refugees are from Syria in Germany. Secondly, in Germany we stnad for an equal society. Thus, we have to treat all perpetrators the same. Deporting sexual abusers and sending them back to their countries, means that they will find victims there. As equalists or feminists, can we accept that by deporting these people they will be causing people problems elsewhere? And, we don't deport German abusers.

I'll say it again, most of the crimes commited on New Year's Eve are not considered criminal offenses by law in Germany and are commited by Germans during e.g. the October Festival and the Faschings Parade.

Anja --

I found your comment quite depressing. You make it sound like Germany is way behind in equality between women and men than the rest of the western world like the US.
Do you believe that the law is favoring men and allowing assault over protecting females? Do you also feel that women are treated second to men just because groping and touching is not considered a crime?

It also appears from your comment that you assume a clear issue gradient. It appears that issues to protect equal rights between religion and races is more important than equal rights between men and women? Meaning that in order to grant religious freedom it is ok for another minority to be restricted in freedom. At least that is what I read between the lines as either a statement of fact or worry. Can't really tell.

Is this really the political landscape in Germany? I always thought law and country there would be more progressive.

Anja --

I found your comment quite depressing. You make it sound like Germany is way behind in equality between women and men than the rest of the western world like the US.
Do you believe that the law is favoring men and allowing assault over protecting females? Do you also feel that women are treated second to men just because groping and touching is not considered a crime?

It also appears from your comment that you assume a clear issue gradient. It appears that issues to protect equal rights between religion and races is more important than equal rights between men and women? Meaning that in order to grant religious freedom it is ok for another minority to be restricted in freedom. At least that is what I read between the lines as either a statement of fact or worry. Can't really tell.

Is this really the political landscape in Germany? I always thought law and country there would be more progressive.

We had some attacks locally, too, and police came out with a statement, contrary to usual practice, that the men in question were asylum seekers. We are amidst a recession, they get financial aid even though there is barely enough for some of our own nationality, and that is how they choose to treat local women. It is appalling. Yes, we do have problems among our own as well, but were I to travel to an Arabic country, I'd be thrown in jail for not being appropriately dressed.

I don't know, I want to see the best in people, but come on, sexual harrassment almost the first thing you do when arriving in a new country? No manners, no honour, but just take take take. Hateful. Had I done that in their country, they would have stoned me or similar. Yay for equality, huh.

Yep, Eric. You misunderstood me. I was challenging Anja, because I could not understand her opinion and perspective. Or even what she was trying to say. I wanted clarity on her perspective and why her point of view paints Germans and the equal right laws in such negative light for women.
To me it appeared like equality for women is only second to all other societal issues in her opinion. She did not even sound upset that groping is not considered a crime... I find a comment like this depressing coming from another women, like so many years of feminism have failed... I hope she just stumbled over the language barrier and her sentence structure was just a little unfortunate.

To me no one should be asked to sacrifice rights or freedom to support someone else's believe or cultural system. I have seen this in some of the countries I have lived in. And living in a country where you are considered free game or an object if you do not follow prescribed behavioral rules and dress code is a very discriminatory and frightening experience. I do not want this "life style" to expand to Western cultures. Or have to explain to my kids that to some of their friends "free choice" or freedom just does not apply...

There was some recurring incident in a bathing institution, too. Also involving immigrant men. Troublesome to an extent that they have been banned from entering again. No, I don't want that sort of culture to get a stronghold either, where women are considered loose and free game merely from existing the wrong way. The thing is, I don't want to come up with news like this, but they have managed just fine on their own to get a tarnished reputation from acting like some sort of savage people.

Eric understood me correctly.

I would like to state first of all, that English is my mother tongue, so I don't have a language barrier.

I find it wrong that groping is not considered a crime (I find it a bit ridiculous that I have to say this, because it should be obvious from my numerous messages in this thread). I'm just trying to point out deficits in our legal system.

In my opinion, we should have a 'no means no' law in Germany. We don't have that, thus there is no legal background that would justify deporting refugees for these actions. I think that we should work on the problems in our legal system and change our laws so that the Istanbul Convention is implemented. This is a problem for equality because our legal system obviously doesn't consider this to be important enough to implement.

I would like to add that I don't think that one societal problem is more important than others. I think that all are important and have to be tackled. I find that a lot of people who are feminists, just think about gender equality issues in Germany, and don't realise or think that it is important that a lot of groups suffer from racial and religious discrimination in Germany.