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I don't know if anybody is interested in it, but I'd love to discuss the other aspects the book includes as well.

I know this group is about feminism, but Alice Walker doesn't just write about problems the women have. There's the whole problem with white people vs. black people. White people thinking they're above black people. Colonialism, it's outbreak with the help of missionary schools and what it means for Africa. And land grabbing (especially in the letter that starts on page 148).

I think those are all aspects we should be discussing too, because in the end it's all about equality.

Totally AGREE with you!

Agreed! It is imperative that we discuss the ways Walker addresses and comments on racism that Celie, Sophia, and others experience in addition to the misogyny within mens' treatment of women in this story. One point I'd like to discuss is the way Walker addresses misogyny within black communities, which was one of the criticisms lobbied at this book, that it perpetrates stereotypes of violence that are still often applied to black American men.

So my question is: How does Walker showcase through this book the need to be able to talk about racism that black men and women experience IN ADDITION TO the misogyny that continues to exist in the power dynamics between black men and black women?

Good point, Kori. It's so important to consider how a story like this one can perpetuate stereotypes. How do we discuss these (potentially problematic) facets of the book without invalidating the experiences of the victims of the story? It's a delicate balance.

I'm not far enough into the book to feel comfortable making any assertions about that, but I'm going to be careful to give it more thought as I continue.

The first thing, and probably the whole problem about discussing the threatment of black women and men is that countries like England, America etc. didn't learn from history. I sometimes get the feeling that they didn't learn from colonialism. Africa and other countries don't need us to march in their country and try to take it over.

People need to be taught more about the consequences of colonialism and the slavery of black people. They need to understand that black people didn't come to their country on their own will (Though America needs to shut up because they basically took 'their' America from others) and that there is no such thing as 'bad black vs superior white'

When I have finished the book, I will participate. But I think I've read too few of the book to properly discuss it.

Completely agree, Daniela. How do you feel Walker addresses colonialism in Africa within this book? That could be another point we discuss when everyone has finished the book. I'm going to have to look back through that portion as it's a bit fuzzy for me. Depending on how we feel Walker discusses this through the letters, we should delve into the historical context to better understand the setting in which Celie, Nettie, Sophia, and the other characters operate within in relation to colonialism in the physical (i.e. The Atlantic Slave Trade, the European colonization of Africa, and how those countries and the United States benefited from then politically, socially, and economically) and of the mental (the cultural and ideological colonization used to impart the idea of the "superiority of Europe" to their colonial subjects); this latter point could be applied to the narrative itself, through the ways Mr. imparts the idea that Celie is stupid and ugly. Though it is the furthest thing from the truth, he needs her to believe that in order to maintain control over her.

@Kori

Well first of I study cultur and social anthropology and we did learn some things about colonialism and racism. It's just something that I recognised in the book.
Missionary schools weren't always helping f.e. black people. They basically were part of the colonialism: coming to a foreign country, joining a group of people and trying to get them to live their way of life and believing in their god.

The missionary school in Walkers book was quite harmless, they actually wanted to help in the end, but there were some who used black people, forced them to believe in God and Jesus. I can't remember on which page, but they do say that they didn't quite understand why the people won't let the missionary school help them and convert to christianity.

But yea, discussing colonialism is a bit difficult as it needs some knowledge about it to understand it. It's especially difficult because it's so different every time. But it shouldn't be an forgotten aspect

Daniela wrote: "@Kori

Well first of I study cultur and social anthropology and we did learn some things about colonialism and racism. It's just something that I recognised in the book.
Missionary schools weren'..."

Definitely.

Another observation is that even though Nettie, Corrine, and Samuel see themselves as kinswomen and kinsmen of the Olinka, united not necessarily through direct relation but due to skin color and the origin of their ancestors, they are still bearers of a religion and a cultural concept that viewed white culture and society as "more advanced" and needed for Africans and African Americans to achieve respect in white American society and the global community. Nettie and the missionary family clearly understand how racism keeps the stories and contributions of African Americans outside of mainstream narratives, and even at one point Nettie sees the ways that Olinka girls are not allowed to diverge from the gender structures of the community.

At what point does their intervention become supportive of steps by Olinka who are working on improving their lives and communities in the face of European expansion and at what point is it exploitative and colonialist? Was there ever a point during Nettie's residence with the Olinka that their critiques or work within the community could not be defined as "colonialist?"

Kori wrote: "Daniela wrote: "@Kori

Well first of I study cultur and social anthropology and we did learn some things about colonialism and racism. It's just something that I recognised in the book.
Missionar..."

I'm with you. I enjoyed the stories that Nettie shared in her letters, but because I have reservations about missions in general, I had a much harder time sympathizing with Nettie, Corrine, and Samuel, compared with the people in Celie's letters. For example, all of the discussion of the ritual face scarring just... mostly made me feel conflicted. Ultimately I felt sorry for everyone because it seemed like Tashi had regrets about it, but the whole thing was so fraught with colonial imposition of values. Would Tashi's regrets have been as profound if not for the presence of missionaries (with whom she had formed solid friendships)? That being said, it was nice to find out that girls were being educated toward the end of the book. I can't help but remain ethnocentric (if that's the word that best applies here. I'm tired and my brain has been slow today as it is!) when it comes to gender equality in education and the like.

Well I can't say that there was ever a time colonialism wasn't there while the missionary school excisted. But I do get the feeling that Nettie wanted to help them at least a bit.

But yeah, in the end it didn't matter. They left and lived their lifes.

I really liked the way this book introduces the reader into the sexuality of Celie. It doesn't make it a big deal, it just happens. Another thing that I found exciting about it it's how the characters change their vision about God as they live different experiences. It's funny how both sisters live oppressed in different ways but end up with a very similar way of thinking (even though they found it in a different way too). This book toches so many interesting topics so gently that when you finish it it's really hard to just talk about one and only view. Thank you for opening this topic!

My thought about her sexuality:

I don't quite believe she'd be a lesbian if she had men who loved her in her life.
Men always were cruel to her and I think that's why she became to love Shug. She was the first one (besides her sister) to show her love and who accepted her.
It's hard to argue about her sexuality, it could be so much different if Pa hadn't abused her or if Mr._____ had loved and cared for her

@Daniela
As a lesbian who has been in a relationship with a man for a considerable amount of time, I would like to comment on the ideas you expressed regarding her sexuality.

How you are treated by men (good or bad) has no impact whatsoever on whether or not you fall in love with women. You don't become a lesbian/bisexual woman, you are born one. It's not a choice you can make, just like no one can choose which person they fall in love with. She might have been happier in her relationship with a man if she hadn't been abused, but it wouldn't have changed the fact that she falls in love with women (too).

@Patricia

Of course, I'm aware that people can't choose who they fall in love with.
It was just a thought as she has only known love from women. Might be that she would've loved Shug anyway, but we can't quite know. In the end I think she wouldn't care about the gender much, as long as she gets threated well :)

Kori wrote: "Agreed! It is imperative that we discuss the ways Walker addresses and comments on racism that Celie, Sophia, and others experience in addition to the misogyny within mens' treatment of women in th..."

I think that's an interesting question, Kori (about misogyny within the black community, as you described). Is it the idea that (disproportionately) many black American men are misogynistic because of their oppression by whites? Kind of like grasping at whatever level of power they're able to achieve? Makes me think of the women who are "den mothers" of sorts to young girls and women who have been forced into prostitution, having an iron fist of control over those women, even though they were abused themselves? I don't know if there's evidence in the book to support that (or in society, for that matter... are black American men statistically/culturally more misogynistic, or does the media just portray them that way?), but it's an interesting question.

Alana wrote: "Kori wrote: "Agreed! It is imperative that we discuss the ways Walker addresses and comments on racism that Celie, Sophia, and others experience in addition to the misogyny within mens' treatment o..."

I don't have any statistics on that last question, but maybe white people portray black people as more misogynist because we don't want to look at our own faults? It's a common thing to seek the worse in others, instead of beginning to change yourself first.