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Excerpt from DEBUNKING HOLOCAUST DENIAL THEORIES: Two Non-Jews Affirm the Historicity of the Nazi Genocide:

“The worst mistake I made was that stupid, suburban prejudice of anti-Semitism.� �Ezra Pound


Here is a basic definition of the Holocaust which mainstream historians universally agree upon:

“The Holocaust (aka the Shoah) was a genocide in which Nazi Germany killed approximately six million Jews between 1933 and 1945.�

The Shoah, incidentally, is from the Hebrew HaShoah, which appropriately translates as “the catastrophe.�

Those who challenge the detailed and indisputable historicity of the Holocaust generally fall into two distinct camps: Holocaust deniers (those who say the entire crime of the Nazis never occurred and is all just a result of post-war propaganda) and the more common Holocaust revisionists (those who try to downgrade the death figures from six million Jews to a mere 50,000 or 500,000 maximum).

Note the revisionists are quick to imply that of the tens of thousands, or the hundreds of thousands, of Jews they acknowledge died, few if any of these “casualties of war� died in the Nazis� infamous gas chambers.

So, essentially revisionists are still denying the historicity of the Holocaust.

Clearly, there is very little difference between saying 95% of the Holocaust never happened and saying it never happened at all.

For this reason, we will only use the term Holocaust deniers from here on as we feel the term Holocaust revisionists gives them far too much respect and makes them sound intellectual or even academic.


“Negationism means the denial of historical crimes against humanity. It is not a reinterpretation of known facts, but the denial of known facts. The term negationism has gained currency as the name of a movement to deny a specific crime against humanity, the Nazi genocide on the Jews ... Negationism is mostly identified with the effort at re-writing history in such a way that the fact of the Holocaust is omitted.� �Koenraad Elst, Negationism in India: concealing the record of Islam


We have studied all sides of this so-called debate. We’ve read Holocaust survivors' books and watched documentary footage of the actual Holocaust; we’ve listened to recordings of Hitler's speeches and those of other Nazis; we’ve watched footage of talks given by notorious Holocaust deniers including shamed historian David Irving; we’ve studied WW2 history and have met and interviewed Jewish survivors of the concentration camps. And we can assure you of one thing�

Holocaust deniers always have anti-Semitic beliefs and sympathies somewhere inside them. Always.

We need to point out not everyone would agree with that, however. The great American political activist and linguist Noam Chomsky once stated, “I see no antisemitic implications in denial of the existence of gas chambers, or even denial of the holocaust,� as reported by William Rubinstein in the October 1981 edition of Quadrant. Chomsky later elaborated, in a personal letter to Lawrence K. Kolodney, by saying, “I was asked whether the fact that a person denies the existence of gas chambers does not prove that he is an anti-Semite. I wrote back what every sane person knows: no, of course it does not. A person might believe that Hitler exterminated 6 million Jews in some other way without being an anti-Semite. Since the point is trivial and disputed by no one, I do not know why we are discussing it. In that context, I made a further point: even denial of the Holocaust would not prove that a person is an anti-Semite. I presume that that point too is not subject to contention. Thus if a person ignorant of modern history were told of the Holocaust and refused to believe that humans are capable of such monstrous acts, we would not conclude that he is an anti-Semite.�

We would respectfully disagree with Chomsky. Or at least conclude that he is perhaps correct if incidents of denialism are assessed formally in almost an academic fashion, but incorrect if denialism is considered in the wider sense, including what it takes to maintain such a belief system.

Yes, in the first instance someone could potentially be a Holocaust denier on the basis of reasons that are not anti-Semitic. For example, an engineer may have no hatred for Jewish people whatsoever and yet may dispute Holocaust reports simply because he or she believes it was not technically possible to kill millions of people in gas chambers over the course of WW2.

However � and this is where we would disagree with Chomsky � in the long-term, to hold to the belief that the historicity of the Holocaust is pure fabrication, or has been greatly exaggerated, requires that you also believe that virtually the entire worldwide Jewish community, including Holocaust survivors past and present, are liars and that they collectively make up what deniers callously refer to as the “Holocaust industry�.

So, even if the original reason for an individual’s denial of this historical event was not anti-Semitic, in the long-term it always leads down the “Holocaust industry� path the deniers allege is “slyly managed by Jews� who, they insist, are concealing the facts from the public.

In our opinion, psychiatrist Walter Reich, former director of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and now professor of international affairs at George Washington University, summarized the underlying reason for Holocaust denial best when he wrote in a July 1993 article in The New York Times that, for anti-Semites, “the Holocaust is an infuriatingly inconvenient fact of history. After all, the Holocaust has generally been recognized as one of the most terrible crimes that ever took place, and surely the very emblem of evil in the modern age. If that crime was a direct result of anti-Semitism taken to its logical end, then anti-Semitism itself, even when expressed in private conversation, is inevitably discredited among most people. What better way to rehabilitate anti-Semitism, make anti-Semitic arguments seem once again respectable in civilized discourse and even make it acceptable for governments to pursue anti-Semitic policies than by convincing the world that the great crime for which anti-Semitism was blamed simply never happened� indeed, that it was nothing more than a frame-up invented by the Jews, and propagated by them through their control of the media? What better way, in short, to make the world safe again for anti-Semitism than by denying the Holocaust?�

Deniers will pretend they are impartial and say they simply wish to report anomalies they’ve discovered in historical records, but deep down there abides a hatred of Jews. In some, or even many, cases their hatred may only be subconscious, as in partially hidden even from themselves, or it may be purely unconscious, as in automatic or reflexive, without them understanding why they are anti-Semitic. Either way, it amounts to hatred.

All too often, anti-Semitism is like a subtle form of brainwashing that is either conspiracy-based or religious-based. With the former, classic examples include the conspiracy theory which would have us believe the banking elite are all Jewish, or the age-old myth that the Jews control the entire world; with the latter, certain fundamentalists � most notably in extremist forms of Christianity or Islam � believe the Jews are an inferior people or practice an inferior religion.


“Thus, a story concocted by Mark strictly for evangelistic purposes to shift the blame for Jesus’s death away from Rome is stretched with the passage of time to the point of absurdity, becoming in the process the basis for two thousand years of Christian anti-Semitism.� �Reza Aslan, Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth


The David Irvings of this world are even more openly blatant about their anti-Semitic beliefs. After years of claiming he was an unbiased historian with no racial hatred whatsoever, Irving has since made disparaging remarks against Jews and various other non-white races. Just search online to find his interview with Australian journalist John Safran on the ABC TV show John Safran's Race Relations for an example of his (Irving's) vile racism.

In that filmed interview, Irving made such charming comments as “usually the (white) women who marry blacks are the ones who have been rejected by the whites� and “the gas chamber they show you in Auschwitz is as genuine as the fairy castle in Orlando, rather like Disneyland and Auschwitz has become the kingpin of the Holocaust industry� and “More women died on the back seat of Senator Kennedy's car at Chappaquiddick than ever died in a gas chamber in Auschwitz.�

David Irving also lost a libel case in the United Kingdom against author Deborah Lipstadt and her publisher, Penguin Books, which we refer to in greater detail in chapter 4. In the process, his Holocaust denial arguments were historically and scientifically proven beyond doubt to be incorrect and a purposeful misrepresentation of the true facts of the Nazi genocide.

During that court case, the trial judge, Justice Charles Gray, concluded that: “Irving has, for his own ideological reasons, persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence; that, for the same reasons, he has portrayed Hitler in an unwarrantedly favorable light, principally in relation to his attitude towards, and responsibility for, the treatment of the Jews; that he is an active Holocaust denier; that he is anti-semitic and racist, and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism.�

And there was the infamous poem written by Irving in an article headed Irving taught his nine-month-old daughter racist ditty, libel trial told, which was published in The Guardian newspaper on February 3, 2000.

That report states, “The QC read out a September 1994 extract from Mr Irving's personal diaries in which the historian referred to a poem he had sung to his daughter when ‘half-breed children� were wheeled past.�
An excerpt from the poem Irving wrote for his infant daughter follows:

“I am a Baby Aryan,
Not Jewish or Sectarian.
I have no plans to marry-an
Ape or Rastafarian.�

So much for Mr. Irving being the ‘unbiased� and ‘impartial� historian Holocaust deniers claim he is!

Additional excerpt from DEBUNKING HOLOCAUST DENIAL THEORIES: Two Non-Jews Affirm the Historicity of the Nazi Genocide:

An article on the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM) website does an excellent job of summarizing the various ways people end up becoming deniers. Titled Origins of Holocaust Denial, the article states that many “deny the Holocaust for more overtly racist, political, or strategic reasons.�

The USHMM article continues, “These deniers begin with the premise that the Holocaust did not happen. This premise suits their broader purposes. They deny the Holocaust as an article of faith and no amount of rational argumentation can dissuade them.
This denial is irrational, largely unrelated either to the facts of the history or to the enormity of the event. Some people deny the Holocaust because of innate antisemitism, irrational hated of Jews.

“In fact, Holocaust denial has been called by some scholars the “new antisemitism� for it recycles many of the elements of pre-1945 antisemitism in a post-World War II context. Holocaust deniers argue that reports of the Holocaust are really part of a vast shadowy plot to make the white, western world feel guilty and to advance the interest of Jews.

“Holocaust denial, then, unites a broad range of radical right-wing hate groups in the United States and elsewhere, ranging from Ku Klux Klan segregationists to skinheads seeking to revive Nazism to radical Muslim activists seeking to destroy Israel�.

The USHMM article concludes, “Holocaust deniers want to debate the very existence of the Holocaust as a historical event. They want above all to be seen as legitimate scholars arguing a historical point. They crave attention, a public platform to air what they refer to as ‘the other side of the issue�. Because legitimate scholars do not doubt that the Holocaust happened, such assertions play no role in historical debates. Although deniers insist that the idea of the Holocaust as myth is a reasonable topic of debate, it is clear, in light of the overwhelming weight of evidence that the Holocaust happened, that the debate the deniers proffer is more about antisemitism and hate politics than it is about history.�

Incidentally, the USHMM makes a perceptive point about Holocaust deniers. It reminds us the very views they perpetuate, accusing Jews of conspiracy and world domination, are the same “hateful charges that were instrumental in laying the groundwork for the Holocaust� in the first place.

Why should anyone be concerned by the existence of Holocaust denialism?

Well, any denial or distortion of a historically proven event is an attack on the truth. In the case of the Holocaust, persecution of Jews by the Nazis ended in genocide. However, the Jewish community weren’t the only ones who suffered. Millions of other ‘undesirables� died at the hands of the Nazis � a graphic reminder that when one race or group of people is targeted, everyone is vulnerable. To deny or undermine the historicity of the Holocaust at a time when anti-Semitism is once again on the rise worldwide, is to fan the flames of racism and hate; to tolerate it is to invite a repeat of history.


“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.� �Martin Luther King Jr.


In the following chapters we debunk the most common myths Holocaust deniers perpetuate.

Some chapters, you will note, are written in a casually informal tone that borders on conversational at times. We make no apology for this. Some of the text has been lifted verbatim from replies we sent, mostly via email, to Holocaust deniers and other confused individuals who contacted us. We have retained that tone in places as we feel it best gets the message across in certain cases.

5 Things You Don't Know About Anne Frank and Her Diary The Diary of a Young Girl --

The holocaust was a horrible thing but deniers are so completely fringe. I don't understand why you are expending energy on it. If flat earthers were somehow evil, I'd be asking the same question.

Hey Jim - We once asked ourselves the same question. When we looked into it, the results were surprising. Here's an excerpt from the introduction chapter in our book. (Note poll results in particular)...

"If you are asking yourself whether Holocaust denial is really that big a problem outside of society’s lunatic fringes, we would urge you to think about it in the wider context. While it is probably true the numbers of official neo-Nazis and vociferous deniers are not a direct threat to rational thinking or to the historicity of the Holocaust, many people � as in a big slice of the world’s population so studies reveal � silently support such thinking and thereby buy in to this sinister underground brand of anti-Semitism. Such people usually keep their beliefs to themselves unless they are around like minds as they believe it’s not “politically correct� to talk about the “true nature� of the Jews and their so-called Holocaust industry.

"It’s our assessment that support for these alternative versions of the Holocaust is far stronger than even the most frightening poll statistics show. For every one hard core neo-Nazi or outspoken anti-Semite, there are in our estimation at least 100 silent believers who have inadvertently been suckered into the twisted belief systems of the aforementioned..."

"... It’s a fact many people worldwide don’t believe the Holocaust ever happened. There is considerable documentation available to support this statement. For example, an exhaustive global poll conducted in 2014 by the ADL revealed that of those who have heard of the Holocaust, 32% (almost one third) believe it is a myth or has been greatly exaggerated.

"More alarming still is that 26% of those surveyed harbored anti-Semitic attitudes. An interesting twist on this statistic is that 70% of those who harbored such attitudes 'Have never actually met a Jewish person'."

It's a very common assumption, especially among gentile populations, that Holocaust denial is just a fringe problem promoted only by nutters like neo-Nazis. Many assume it's simply an insane belief that amounts to nothing more than a tiny lunatic fringe of society like flat earth believers or say those who believe the earth is only 4,000 years.

Unfortunately that's not the case, Jim. On the contrary, recent surveys, by the likes of the Anti-Defamation League have consistently revealed 32-33% (one-third) of the world’s population, that’s about 2.5 billion people, believe the Holocaust is either greatly exaggerated or a complete lie. Furthermore, similar surveys have revealed over 50% of the planet’s population have anti-Semitic attitudes. With fascism on the rise again in Europe and in other parts of the world, with various governments such as Poland, the Ukraine and Lithuania attempting to officially downgrade or at least subtly revise Holocaust history, this bizarre phenomenon is only going to get worse in my opinion...Especially as all Holocaust survivors, and eyewitnesses of the genocide, will soon be dead.

As for my interest in the subject and why I took the time to co-write a book on this subject to systematically debunking the deniers...

Apart from knowing some survivors personally, I primarily come to the subject from my own research into conspiracy theories and observations I've made about the conspiracy theory community (if that term makes sense). Besides obvious groups like white supremacists, neo-Nazis and elements of Islamic and Christian fundamentalist communities, there is perhaps one group in the 21st Century more responsible for perpetuating the myth that the Holocaust never happened or has been vastly exaggerated: conspiracy theorists. I would estimate that modern conspiracy theorists actually comprise the biggest chunk of deniers worldwide.

That's not to say all conspiracy theorists are Holocaust deniers, far from it. Nevertheless, denying the Holocaust is very common in conspiracy circles. Once the internet age took off, it allowed anti-Semitic theories to spread like wildfire among the young, the uneducated and the gullible. It's an example of the dark side of the conspiracy theory movement. Have even witnessed quite a few (former) members of this group who believed or actively promoted such theories.

I think that anyone who has seen the war videos documented by Americans post WW2 cannot dispute that Holocaust occurred.

However, WW2 is almost a generation over, and many countries (except the countries affected by Holocaust) do not teach Holocaust to the the students as a part of history

Some people deny Holocaust for political reasons, these people have a clear motive behind such denials, and maybe they are doing their own propaganda to try to spread Antisemitism. Such deliberate attempts to rewrite history, while in poor light, hardly finds many followers, except for gullible fools.

Imo, most people who deny holocaust do it out of ignorance, because they cannot believe that such atrocities could be done by humans, just like a mother who turns blind eye to the husband hurting the kids, because if you close your eyes and refuse to believe it, maybe it did not happen!

It is in best interests of humans not to forget our history and to stand for the truth no matter how bitter it is. It is our responsibility and our privilege to stand witness to the incredible spirit of survival of Jews. And so I hope many books and documentaries that prove beyond doubt that Holocaust occurred is easily available to all the doubting Thomases!

Rachel wrote: "It is in best interests of humans not to forget our history and to stand for the truth no matter how bitter it is. It is our responsibility and our privilege to stand witness to the incredible spirit of survival of Jews. And so I hope many books and documentaries that prove beyond doubt that Holocaust occurred is easily available to all the doubting Thomases! ..."

Well said, Rachel.

I only realised how widespread holocaust denial was when I started looking at some of the comments on videos about the Third Reich that appear on Youtube. The level of ignorance exhibited is frightening,

Lee wrote: "I only realised how widespread holocaust denial was when I started looking at some of the comments on videos about the Third Reich that appear on Youtube. The level of ignorance exhibited is frightening..."

Isn't it just...
I believe the key thing is not many people openly admit to either Holocaust denial or anti-Semitism. They know such viewpoints are frowned upon by society and it can cost them their careers or their standing in the community or whatever. So they keep quiet and we therefore never get a true sense of just how common and dangerously popular these beliefs are...
But get these types around their own kind, or get them in a casual setting, or with a few beers in them, and you'd be astonished how common these theories are...Ridiculous theories not only about the Jews somehow fabricating Holocaust history (go figure!) but also them supposedly being responsible for every problem under the sun!

What's tragic is that these beliefs that lead to the denial of this verified history are virtually identical beliefs that lead to the Holocaust being allowed to occur in the 20th Century...There is an uncanny parallel between modern day deniers/antiSemites and the anti-Semites that populated not just Germany but mainland Europe in the first half of the 20th Century.

Whoever said history repeats...

My head asplode. I had no idea it was that prevalent.

At least Google appears to be beginning to make the crucial differentiation between "freedom of speech" and "hate speech"...

New Google algorithm removes Holocaust denial sites from search results

The alarming global rise in anti-Semitism and the continuing denial of the Holocaust by the deniers and so-called revisionists were the major motivators for writing our recent release book “DEBUNKING HOLOCAUST DENIAL THEORIES: Two Non-Jews Affirm the Historicity of the Nazi Genocide�.

Interestingly, a few well meaning people have questioned the need for such a book, arguing that surely everyone knows the Holocaust happened as all mainstream historians concur. We have already answered those people in this and other threads in this group so we don’t need to repeat them here�

However, an article in The Telegraph (Jan. 3 edition) advising readers that “Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf has become a bestseller in Germany again� has raised more alarm bells and would seem to support our view that anti-Semitism is on the rise - again.

The full article can be viewed at:

Meanwhile, here’s key excerpts from the article:

“Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf has become a bestseller in Germany again, 92 years after it was first published.

“A new heavily annotated academic edition has sold more than 85,000 copies since it was published last year despite weighing in at almost 2,000 pages and coming at a price of �59 (£69)�

“…Mein Kampf - 'My Struggle' in English - is a rambling screed which contains Hitler’s thoughts on everything from eugenics and race theory to syphilis and the movies, continues to attract a morbid fascination and remains a bestseller in several countries.

“It is the number one bestselling Second World War memoir and the fourth bestselling book on German history on Amazon’s UK website.

“But while it sold in translation around the world publication of the original German text was blocked by the German authorities for 70 years � until last year.

“So dangerous was the book considered that copies in the Bavarian state library were kept in a “poison cabinet� and readers had to be specially vetted before they were allowed access�

“…Originally only 4,000 copies were printed, but sales far exceeded expectations and the publisher has had to order a sixth print run.

“While the German authorities agreed to publication for academic purposes, the Bavarian justice ministry has vowed to prosecute anyone who tries to publish the text without critical annotations under hate speech laws�

“…Mein Kampf’s republication has not been without controversy in Germany. Levi Salomon, spokesman for Germany’s Jewish Forum for Democracy and Against Anti-Semitism, described it as a “book of hatred�.

“Florian Sepp, the Bavarian state librarian, described it as “too dangerous for the general public�.

“But the Institute for Contemporary History denied that its new edition had made Hitler’s ideology more socially acceptable in modern Germany�

“…Sales of the new edition are dwarfed by the book’s success in Hitler’s lifetime, when it became a standard wedding gift to new couples.�

Interestingly, the columnist one Justin Huggler, writing from Berlin, states that "the remarkable sales (of Hitler's book) are unlikely to be a sign of a resurgent German far-Right or a rehabilitation of the racist text"...

I fear that's wishful thinking, but I hope he's right.

Question - was the 6 million not a very specific number that was also predicted in religious text?

So it could have been more but for faith reasons 6 is used?

There are people who exist who obsess on specifics -I don't see that as them being anti jew.

Uh-oh, Ian-Anthony...
I strongly suggest you read more on the Holocaust before inadvertently regurgitating theories spread by haters who package those theories as "unbiased research".
The 6million death toll is 1000% verified by ALL mainstream historians worldwide. Fact.

Its not an uh-oh so please don't become judgemental of my question.

There is certainly the possibility that it was more surely?

Yeah, but you're inadvertently (happy to give you the benefit of the doubt) steering things toward a very well-worn path that well-known anti-Semites and infamous Holocaust deniers like David Irving have repeatedly brought up. Many deniers (who try to call themselves "revisionists" but are deniers) attempt to begin this debate "softly, softly" when in actual fact there can be no debate about "questioning the CONFIRMED death toll". And keep in mind it's a subject that has caused a persecuted minority continuous misery since the Holocaust.

Questioning the confirmed death toll /topic/show/...

Variations in death toll statistics /topic/show/...

Now as we write in the 2nd thread link above (excerpt from our book Debunking Holocaust Denial Theories): "Death tolls of all wars and genocides are always estimates and cannot ever be 100% precise. For example, nobody can estimate how many precisely died in the Vietnam War. (Some historians say three million Vietnamese and 58,000 Americans, others say 3.2 million Vietnamese and 65,000 Americans)."

So it's not exactly to the very person 6 million - afterall new mass graves around Europe are still being found. Some historians say 6.1 million, others say 5.9 million. The 6 million is a very accurate estimate of the vicinity all mainstream WW2 historians are in give or take about 100,000 Jewish victims either way.

But make no mistake, anyone who says the death toll is much less than this will not be a mainstream bonafide historian but rather an anti-Semite with an agenda just as Irving and all other fascist "researchers" in this domain have repeatedly been proven to be.

James wrote: "So it's not exactly to the very person 6 million - afterall new mass graves around Europe are still being found. Some historians say 6.1 million, others say 5.9 million. The 6 million is a accurate estimate of the vicinity all mainstream WW2 historians are in give or take about 100,000 Jewish victims either way.."

Much appreciated.

I think that it's a subject best left to historians myself.

I have never actually met a Jewish person - by which I mean identified as such.
In 33 years & having known every variation of the human family represented as "groups" I always found it odd even as a child.

To my child brain that was proof enough of the holocaust without the need for specific figures.

Ian-Anthony wrote: "I think that it's a subject best left to historians myself. ..."

Definitely - and the good news is historians have achieved consensus many decades ago on the 6 million death toll figure and there is therefore no debate amongst actual historians. It's way beyond doubt considering the Holocaust is the most historically/scientifically/forensically proven crime of the 20th Century that has arguably been studied more than any other "event".

Ian-Anthony wrote: "I have never actually met a Jewish person - by which I mean identified as such.
In 33 years & having known every variation of the human family represented as "groups" I always found it odd even as a child...."

There are two (Jewish) Holocaust survivors in this very group, so you may get to know some members of this minority community this way.

One is my friend Peter Kubicek who wrote the excellent Memories of Evil about his experiences as a teen boy surviving the Nazis. An excellent introduction to the Holocaust that I recommend.

Peter is always happy to answer email from anyone interested in learning about the WW2 genocide he survived.

- This was always my one stop shop for anyone interested.

Fascinating discussion. I recently started re-reading the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and I'm pretty shocked at how disgusting and completely unconvincing it is. I say "shocked" because (as shameful as this is to admit), when I was a teenager I read it and thought it was perfectly convincing. The strangest thing I find about it is that so many people on the left believe the Jewish world domination theory elaborated within the Protocols, even though the Protocols are clearly right-wing monarchist propaganda. The fact that I considered myself to be a communist at that time never seemed to be at odds with the fact that the "Elders of Zion" claimed to be using communism as a Trojan horse to dupe the workers into shackling themselves in their own chains. Cognitive dissonance at its finest! And, clearly, a lot of cognitive dissonance is required if you're going to take something as ridiculous the Protocols seriously...

But, here's the point I want to make with regards to this discussion... As a conspiracy theory-obsessed teenager who at least entertained the veracity of the Protocols, I was never *ever* anti-Semitic. In fact, I distinctly remember reading the Protocols and being surprised that there was so very little actual religious language inside, if any. My conclusion was that these possibly atheist Jews who may be pulling the strings clearly didn't represent all the Jews out there and, in fact, were even stepping on the bodies of decent Jews to achieve their schemes of world domination.

Now, I wasn't actually familiar with any of these so-called "Holocaust revisionist" arguments when I was that age and in that frame-of-mind. However, playing Devil's advocate here, I could imagine myself, gullible and conspiracy-minded as I was back then, entertaining these conspiracies without necessarily being anti-Semitic. In fact, "Holocaust revisionism" may have actually fed into my then-worldview of a small group of atheist Jews stepping on ordinary Jews to reach their insidious ends (much like how David Icke, who believes in the veracity of the Protocols, refers to the "Rothschild Zionists" who, he claims, are happy to abuse their own Jewish people).

Let me stress that these aren't actually my views, and I stopped entertaining right-wing conspiracy theories years ago. But I'm just not convinced by your argument that anybody who entertains "Holocaust revisionism" must, therefore, also be anti-Semitic. Although I'm sure that in the vast majority of cases, it is the case...

Incidentally, I came to study antisemitism due to similar reasons as yourself. I'd highly recommend the following book for a good discussion of the language behind antisemitism in particular, and right-wing populism in general: /book/show/2...

Alan wrote: "Let me stress that these aren't actually my views, and I stopped entertaining right-wing conspiracy theories years ago. But I'm just not convinced by your argument that anybody who entertains "Holocaust revisionism" must, therefore, also be anti-Semitic. Although I'm sure that in the vast majority of cases, it is the case......"

If you re-read original post and book excerpt, especially the section in regards to Noam Chomsky, you'll see the argument specified individuals who hold that denialist viewpoint in the "long-term" (not just momentarily entertain), as per this quote which I'll repeat:

"Yes, in the first instance someone could potentially be a Holocaust denier on the basis of reasons that are not anti-Semitic. For example, an engineer may have no hatred for Jewish people whatsoever and yet may dispute Holocaust reports simply because he or she believes it was not technically possible to kill millions of people in gas chambers over the course of WW2.

However � and this is where we would disagree with Chomsky � in the long-term, to hold to the belief that the historicity of the Holocaust is pure fabrication, or has been greatly exaggerated, requires that you also believe that virtually the entire worldwide Jewish community, including Holocaust survivors past and present, are liars and that they collectively make up what deniers callously refer to as the “Holocaust industry�. "

You might also like to check out these interrelated threads to see how repetitious theories of Jewish banking elites, Zionists creating a Holocaust industry, etc, etc, all tie in (in fact these modern conspiracy theories are are actually recycled versions of ancient anti-Semitic myths that led to the Holocaust being executed Europe-wide not to mention earlier genocides of Jews from Biblical times onwards...):

The (idiotic) “Joooz control the world� conspiracy theory /topic/show/...

The Israeli connection /topic/show/...

The “Zionists created the Holocaust� claim /topic/show/...

I would say that there is an odd line between criticism of Israel & anti-semitism/Holocaust denial.

If a countries leaders & its people are lumped together I think that we are all screwed :-)

Ian-Anthony wrote: "I would say that there is an odd line between criticism of Israel & anti-semitism/Holocaust denial.

If a countries leaders & its people are lumped together I think that we are all screwed :-)"

Yep, and that works both ways. As yes, there can sometimes be an overly politically correct element at times where some try to say you cannot criticize Israel.
However, the flip side is you get a lot of self-proclaimed anti-Zionists who claim to have no beef with the Jews but are actually anti-Semitic in every regard. I can show you numerous anti-Zionist literate and anti-Zionist posters that are some of the most disgusting anti-Semitic material you could ever wish to see...A red flag is where you could replace the word Zionist with "Jew" and get the exact same message...Another example is where you have ancient but subtle anti-Semitic imagery on anti-Zionist imagery such as big noses and people (as in Jewish Israelis) with horns coming out of their heads.

Like being or not being a racist, whether one is an anti-Semite is for the masses to decide not for the actual individual to state about himself. Classic case in point: David Irving who always stated he was an impartial researcher who merely found anomalies in the Holocaust, but has since been proven to be an extreme racist and anti-Semite who regularly befriends fascists throughout Europe and America...

Careful studying this subject in isolation, guys, keep reading what mainstream historians unanimously agree upon about WW2. Also consider that sometimes conspiracy theories are real and proven in time and other times they are used to incite hatred and violence in the masses...Just like the fascists of WW2 used conspiracy theories about the Jewish populations to allow the Holocaust to be perpetuated not just by Germans but in collaboration with big percentages of virtually all European nations...

Holocaust Denial: Anti-Semitism Masquerading as History

Holocaust Denial as an International Movement

The end of World War II saw an emergence of Holocaust dissention that began in Europe and has since developed into an international movement with adherents in almost every country in the world. At first, this denial was fueled by the desire to rehabilitate Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime in an effort to reestablish a neo-Nazi state. In the following years, coupled with the renewal of anti-Semitism, this dissent has been used as a means of denying the legitimacy of the state of Israel. Despite these motivations, the ultimate cause for concern is in the way this denial attracts its members by both challenging the existence of the Holocaust and the testimony of its witnesses. By tracing the history, causes, and spread of Holocaust denial, Atkins reveals the dangers this mindset poses to rational thinkers who become vulnerable to fringe ideas.

Brunhilde Pomsel, Goebbels’s Secretary and Witness to Nazis� Fall, Dies at 106

"In Berlin’s swastika-draped Sportpalast in 1943, when Goebbels gave his most famous speech, acknowledging publicly for the first time � after the Nazi defeat at Stalingrad � that the nation faced serious dangers, calling for “total war� and hinting at a vast extermination of Jews that was already underway, Ms. Pomsel sat near the front, just behind her boss’s wife, Magda Goebbels."

Holocaust denial ​leaflets at Australian universities spark confrontation

"University of Sydney students accost man distributing antisemitic material as identical flyers crop up on campuses in Melbourne and Canberra"

"Students at the University of Sydney filmed and confronted a man distributing leaflets that support British Holocaust denier David Irving amid reports of a wave of antisemitic activity on Australian university campuses."

The Rise of Anti-Semitism on Social Media: Summary of 2016

Wow, this is really sad...

Undercover at a secret ‘neo-Nazi� meeting with Holocaust denier David Irving
Exclusive: Speakers at a meeting of far-right London Forum claim Auschwitz ‘like Disneyland�, the Holocaust was ‘orchestrated propaganda� and that ‘there’s no business like Shoah business�

Antisemitism may be manifested in many ways, ranging from expressions of hatred of or discrimination against individual Jews to organized pogroms by mobs, state police, or even military attacks on entire Jewish communities. Although the term did not come into common usage until the 19th century, it is now also applied to historic anti-Jewish incidents. Notable instances of persecution include the Rhineland massacres preceding the First Crusade in 1096, the Edict of Expulsion from England in 1290, the massacres of Spanish Jews in 1391, the persecutions of the Spanish Inquisition, the expulsion from Spain in 1492, the Cossack massacres in Ukraine from 1648 to 1657, various anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian Empire between 1821 and 1906, the 1894�1906 Dreyfus affair in France, the Holocaust in German-occupied Europe, official Soviet anti-Jewish policies, and Arab and Muslim involvement in the Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries.

Very interesting discussion. As you rightly stated under another heading of this discussion, Hitler also sought to exterminate the Romanies. This little-known aspect of the holocaust is documented in the book Bibaxtale berša, which is available in Romany and English.

James wrote: "Uh-oh, Ian-Anthony...
I strongly suggest you read more on the Holocaust before inadvertently regurgitating theories spread by haters who package those theories as "unbiased research".
The 6million ..."

James wrote: "Ian-Anthony wrote: "I think that it's a subject best left to historians myself. ..."

Definitely - and the good news is historians have achieved consensus many decades ago on the 6 million death to..."

James wrote: "Ian-Anthony wrote: "I would say that there is an odd line between criticism of Israel & anti-semitism/Holocaust denial.

If a countries leaders & its people are lumped together I think that we are..."

If the 6,000,000 death total is fact, then someone needs to explain how this SAME number was used as early as 1900 ...



and since we also know as FACT that many "death camp" numbers have dwindled down from the original numbers, for example, the official deaths figure of 4million at Auschwitz was reduced by a whopping 2.5million YET the original number still stood at the 6million figure firmly entrenched in history and textbooks, someone is having trouble with the math .

Guido wrote: "and since we also know as FACT that many "death camp" numbers have dwindled down from the original numbers, for example, the official deaths figure of 4million at Auschwitz was reduced by a whopping 2.5million YET the original number still stood at the 6million figure firmly entrenched in history and textbooks, someone is having trouble with the math . "...."

Guido, do you realize what you're saying or implying here? Do you realize you are going into very well known anti-Semitic White Supremacist territory by bringing this up again after it's all been systematically debunked a million times by mainstream historians?

I'm asking because do you realize what you are associating your name with here??

However, I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one and assume you don't have any agenda or warped racial belief system (either consciously or unconsciously) and are instead a newbie to WW2 history...Or at least to Holocaust history...In which case, I'd encourage you to keep reading mainstream/accepted historical accounts before you delve into the dangerous conspiracies on this subject (the same types of conspiracy theories that lead to the Holocaust occurring in the first place)...

First step with those "researchers" you're referencing who challenge accepted/proven Holocaust history (that ALL mainstream historians globally agree on), is to recognize in advance that there are those who simply need to attempt to debunk the Holocaust...Even when they realize it's impossible to, they will not stop - such is their hatred of Jews (if not all non-White minorities). Many are actually aware they are lying and making stuff up to influence the uneducated or naive youngsters - they'd rather spread theories they know not to be true because they have a nasty agenda that is ALWAYS extremely anti-Semitic.

Once you get that, then you see thru their BS effortlessly.

For example, the site you linked to in your post above, balder.org, is a well known Far Right anti-Semitic pro-White Supremacist site based in Europe. That site not only blames the Jews for every problem on Earth (they even have a book listed on site that says the Vietnam War was solely for the benefit of Jews!) and also says "the Holocaust is a religion of faith", but furthermore it gives extensive airtime to Ku Klux Klan idiot David Duke and promotes his books and hate theories...Need I say more?

Again, I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one and assume you stumbled across that site absentmindedly and didn't realize the hate speech and outright racial supremacy it promotes.

If you re-read the article you linked to, and the newspaper references in that article, you'll see that it is NOT repeatedly saying the same number (i.e. the 6,000,000 people) DIED or that "this SAME number was used as early as 1900" (as you state), but rather those newspaper references are merely mentions of "6,000,000 Jews" in various non-death scenarios or else listing Jewish populations in certain regions. For example, the 1906 New York Times article listed states "the condition and future of Russia's 6,000,000 Jews were made on March 12 in Berlin etc". That is obviously a population listing nothing remotely connected with the Holocaust deathtoll almost half a century later because those who died in the Holocaust were not all Russian Jews.

If you think about it, it's like saying 59,000 Americans died in the Vietnam War, so because I can find hundreds or thousands of mentions on Google of the phrase "59,000 Americans" before that war, then this OBVIOUSLY means the Vietnam War statistics are all fudged and those soldiers never died and it's all one big illusion - even tho the history of the Vietnam War is just as proven and irrefutable as the Holocaust that occurred only a few decades earlier...

Other than responding on that one point, I am not getting into silly arguments on numbers and death tolls when it's all been covered/explained by infinitely more learned people than myself. Like American professor/historian Deborah E. Lipstadt in her books like History on Trial: My Day in Court with a Holocaust Denier and Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory, two name but two books.

Plus, I've already covered it myself in both radio and other media interviews, posts on this site and in a Holocaust history book I co-wrote (in collaboration with Holocaust survivors and WW2 historians).

So instead of covering all these very old and farcical numbers games again, I'm providing you with the following links and implore you to take the time to consider what ALL accepted history books worldwide say about the Holocaust before you venture into pseudoscience and those intent on rewriting history for their benefit...

Verifying the gas chamber exterminations /topic/show/...

Questioning the confirmed death toll /topic/show/...

And lastly, the overall Debunking Holocaust deniers discussion area (with various threads/articles etc) provides links and book recommendations to give you all the proof you can ever need to know the Holocaust, including the confirmed death tolls, is historical fact if ever there was one...and that the so called mathematical anomalies are all easily explainable and have been debunked for many decades now: /topic/group...

I know perfectly well where I'm going with this. Being called an anti-Semite for telling the truth does NOT bother me. So you name each site that tells a different story as a Holocaust denial site, but in reality would ANY site that pushes the official Holocaust story EVER publish anything that would in the slightest way even give a whiff of the Holocaust story as being not true? We both know the answer to that. Look, 9/11 Truth was allegedly "debunked" completely by Popular Mechanics, NIST and the 9/11 Commission, yet we know that all three of these publications are LIES made to fit the official story when physics, universal odds of coincidences, and common sense, not to mention Airline Pilots, Scientists, Physicists and Architects and MOST IMPORTANTLY actual witnesses tell us that the official story is a complete lie and an IMPOSSIBILITY. But yet, the media, the government and the majority of people in this country believe it as fact and the very same principles apply to the Holocaust.

Guido wrote: "the very same principles apply to the Holocaust..."

Nope.
None of the same principles apply.
Comparing 9/11 skeptics to Holocaust deniers is mixing apples and oranges if ever that was the case.
The 9/11 truth movement is coming mostly from unbiased people like pilots, engineers, fireman, researchers and even some mainstream historians/journalists/politicians without an axe to grind or any concealed agenda - they all (rightly or wrongly) believe the 9/11 official story is a lie.

By stark contrast, Holocaust deniers are all totally biased and have a dog in the fight (i.e. it greatly furthers their careers and/or interrelated racist agendas to promote Holocaust denial). Just like the Far Right fascist site you posted who are promoting the likes of KKK grand wizard white supremacist hate machine David Duke...dig deep enough and you'll find all those who promote Holocaust denial hate Jews and are promoting some kind of racial superiority. Period.

If you're a serious truth seeker as you say, then keep researching just how proven (historically and scientifically) the Holocaust actually is...And keep an open mind before you get misled by those who skillfully manipulate naive minds of newbies to the subject of Holocaust history.

Holocaust Denial IS growing. And of course it's anti-semitic, duh. I saw the Life Magazine photos of Bergen-Belsen when I was a child. So I believe.

However, I think there is such a thing as Holocaust fatigue. I mean, for God's sake, leave it! People, it's been 75 years, just get a new topic. I am sick of stories set in Germany or wherever with Jews as victims, oh, the awful Nazis. Israeli maltreatment by those villainous Palestinians would work for me, but I probably won't bother with far-foreign stories either. The Romany/homosexual overlap is a problem as others have pointed out: it's the fact that Jews are so literate and constantly writing books that gets all this publicity. I used to belong to a History Book Club, and ended up with a gazumpteen books about Jews being pushed out of Spain in 1492, and at least six of how awful to grow up in 1930s Germany. I haven't read any of them, and can't think why I bought them. It's a question of the squeaky wheel. 30 million Russians killed by Soviets, 30 million Chinese in Manchuria massacred by the Japanese in the same time frame: nobody much mentions those, but that's ten times the number killed claimed by the Jews. They are getting special treatment, because they constantly complain in writing about it, and I don't mean to read any more about this seriously overworked topic.

Thanks for letting us all know that you agree Holocaust denial is a growing problem and that its root cause is anti-Semitic...

And then...um...adding that you're very tired of Jews who "get special treatment" and "constantly complain" about the "awful Nazis"...Which all sounds like a spectacular example of A___-S_______ !!

Could it not be that Jews and Holocaust survivors are having to retell their story over and over because of all the denial and attempts to rewrite history?

I know/knew several elderly Holocaust survivors (including one who died recently in NYC) and I can assure you the last thing they wanted to do was to have to keep retelling their story over and over...These elderly survivors got/get hate mail almost daily from Neo-Nazis, fascists and Holocaust deniers who mock their stories and accuse them of telling lies.

Regular global surveys have consistently revealed that around one third or 33% of the world's population (that's about 2.5 billion people!) believe the Holocaust is either a total fabrication or else greatly exaggerated by the Jews.

I'm not Jewish but Caucasian, and I can see you appear to be white also...So if that assumption of mine is true, how would you feel if most of our race had very nearly been wiped off the face of the Earth? And that we were a small minority who had survived the genocide? Would we not want that story told? Would we not get just a little annoyed by people denying it or challenging the history, not to mention continuing the hate that led to the Holocaust occurring in the first place?

Also, I would add that in my observation (and direct experience also) Jewish storytellers and media people (whether film directors/producers, screenwriters, novelists, publishing editors and TV execs etc) are often the ones championing the stories of other minorities suffering similar genocides. Research the recent films and books released about minorities around the world suffering genocides or else persecution and you will find many Jews involved in these projects. Why? Because they understand from the Holocaust that we need these stories all told. There is no "competition of genocides" here and one being told doesn't diminish other stories being told. Quite the contrary: Telling the stories of the Holocaust expands sensitivity and understanding globally and allows for other similar stories to be told from other cultures... In short, you need to blame readers and audiences not the 13 million Jews on the planet (equivalent to only the entire population of Pennsylvania) for not seeing as much variety in historical stories as you want.

There is a case for "moving on". Not everyone in the camps were Jews - I had an uncle who, as an escape attempt POW, was put in Dachau. There was quite a range of others in there, and they have largely been forgotten, other than from what I recall seeing at Auschwitz, a small monument recording their demise there. And there is a case that the Jewish treatment of Palestinians is not as if they have learned much from their experience, other than that it is the guys with the most guns that prevail.

And I am not antisemitic. I risked a bit to help a young Jewess during the invasion of Czechoslovakia, I nearly married a Jewess (in the end she rejected me) and my current business partners are Jews - or good people, however you like to look at it, and I prefer the latter.

Ian wrote: "And there is a case that the Jewish treatment of Palestinians is not as if they have learned much from their experience, other than that it is the guys with the most guns that prevail...."

I'd advise a rethink with that line of thought, Ian.
It's a common mistake to confuse or mix Zionism with the global Jewish population. The two things are vastly different in that Zionism (essentially Israeli nationalism) is about furthering a country. Jewish individuals are separate to this (many are not even Zionists) and confusing the two is like saying American acts of military aggression reveal things about White/Christian people, just because the US is a predominantly white, predominantly Christian nation...Likewise, the actions of Israel (which I think has about a 70-75% Jewish population), should not be labelled "Jewish actions".

Therefore, where you say "the Jewish treatment of Palestinians", it would be far more correct (in journalistic terms) to say "the Israeli treatment of Palestinians", if you think about it. No newspaper editor worth his salt would print your wording as it's inadvertently inflammatory and a misrepresentation. Your wording is no different than saying "White People invading Iraq" or "Christians invading Iraq" to describe the US/UK wars in Iraq...

Obviously with Zionism and Israel there are so many elements intersecting including not only religions, but also politics, military strategies, big business, terrorism, land disputes, oil wars, unresolved history, etc, etc...not to mention the vast Middle East conflict! So it's unfair to tag individual races or religions with the actions of entire nations run by politicians. And your comment that Jews in Israel learnt nothing from their Holocaust experience apart from "the guys with the most guns that prevail" seems like a gross oversimplification of the Middle East conflict not to mention the post-WW2 Jewish experience...

Zionism also adds fuel to fire for Holocaust deniers too, as outlined in this discussion thread:

The “Zionists created the Holocaust� claim /topic/show/...

As to your comment that it's time to "move on" from sharing Holocaust history, I would reiterate what I wrote earlier in this thread: Regular global surveys have consistently revealed that around one third or 33% of the world's population (that's about 2.5 billion people!) believe the Holocaust is either a total fabrication or else greatly exaggerated by the Jews.

So what would you expect Holocaust survivors and their children to do? Allow people to rewrite history? Or keep telling their stories to fight the purposeful attacks on proven history?

A couple things I want to add, though I am not an expert on Zionism, flat-earthers, anti-semitism, middle eastern politics, etc:

1. Holocaust deniers are among the most foolish, incredibly ignorant people on the planet. I sincerely doubt that the Russian and American forces would completely make up a world changing event-what purpose would that serve? Some anti-semites say it’s because “der jude� was the puppeteer, yet I find it highly unlikely that Jewish people were in vast positions of power in either the USA or Soviet Russia at the time. Plus, how do people account for, aforementioned, war documentaries, historians, personal books written on the subject by prominent psychologists and writers?

2. The KKK is not now and never had been a right wing organization. Much like claiming Nazis were right wing, this is a complete fallacy. The KKK has and still is a Democrat organization. That’s not to say that there aren’t “right-wingers� in the org, but Hillary Clinton’s mentor Robert Byrd, lauded and well loved democrat congressman, was a grand wizard...to the end she credits him with much in her life. Her husband, former President Bill Clinton used confederate imagery in order to appeal to Arkansas voters in his successful bid for governor. Coming from a born Louisianan, David Duke is a freaking kook...whether y’all know it or not, people switch party affiliations here routinely in order to win elections in gerrymandered districts...republicans run as democrats in New Orleans in order to win, dems run as republicans in St Tammany parish and elsewhere where it’s more red. David Duke is a wolf in sheeps clothing and should never be used to prove anything because he is an a$$hole of the grandest sort-a complete whack job....please do not associate him with American conservatives like myself.

3. Does Zionism exist because of Anti-Semitism? They became a country after the war because of the hell they were put through by the global order of the time. They were given back a giant piece of their historical homeland and were surrounded by the worst anti-semites on the planet-radical Islamists. Arafat and PLO to now Hammas run Palestine and Ayatollah run Iran , as well as Syria have in their charters death to Israel....seems like a good reason to act like a bad ass and take pride in your nation and heritage. I don’t blame Israelis for being Zionist.

James, as for a rethink, I agreed not all Jews are zionists, but not all Israelis are Jews. I agree I could have said "The Israeli Defence Force, the Israeli politicians, and everyone who supports those guys," and that would have been more accurate, bit a and long-winded. I am sorry. Deepest apologies.

However, it is to only Jews in Israel that hold the view against the Palestinians. I was in North America when one of those wars broke out, and I was taken to Jewish fund-raising campaign to support Israel. Some of the comments related to the Palestinians at that event should not be repeated

HITLER CHRIST - Nazism, Fascism, Socialism: Swastika, Cross, Hakenkreuz, Hooked-Cross, Crucifixion is a book in which the author claims that he could not find any examples of Mao Zedong (under his Chinese socialism) ever commenting publicly on the partnership when Soviet socialism & German socialism joined to launch WWII, invading Poland, & going onward, leading to the socialist genocides (of which the Holocaust was a part). I find the lack of comment by Mao hard to believe. Does anyone here know of any public comments by Mao on the Stalin/Hitler pact?