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This is our discussion thread for January's Gothic themed book read. We have collectively settled on reading within a theme for this month instead of doing a usual poll and choosing one book to read together. We'll hopefully have that fixed by next month. Because of that, I'm putting this thread here instead of in the usual Group Reads discussion thread.

So the guidelines for this month's read are that (1.)the book be written by a woman, and (2.) it falls within the Gothic theme.
Definition of Gothic literature via study.com:

Definition of Gothic Fiction
The term Gothic fiction refers to a style of writing that is characterized by elements of fear, horror, death, and gloom, as well as romantic elements, such as nature, individuality, and very high emotion. These emotions can include fear and suspense.

-and here's a link to

some lists (though not by female author, so be aware when selecting):
-Best Gothic Books of All Time
-Best Southern Gothic
-Modern Gothic

and a couple (just a few!) women writers who have dabbled in gothic literature:
Ann Radcliffe
Anne Rice
Flannery O'Connor
Jane Austen
Mary Shelley
Charlotte Brontë
Shirley Jackson

As you can see, there are plenty of options out there. I think if you mention what you're interested in, you can find quite a few others who will be interested as well.

Here are some books I've seen marked by members as their potential gothic book of choice:
The Yellow Wallpaper and Other Stories
Jane Eyre
Affinity
Lady Audley's Secret
Frankenstein

I'm going to "read" Jane Eyre on audiobook. I've read it in print 2 or 3 times.

I started reading "The Yellow Wallpaper". Is anyone else reading it? Have a nice day!

Clizia wrote: "I started reading "The Yellow Wallpaper". Is anyone else reading it? Have a nice day!"

If you already started, you'll have it finished by New Year's Day, it's such a short story :-P

I have a box set of Jane Eyre / Wuthering Heights. I (re-)read Jane Eyre a few years ago, but never read Wuthering Heights yet. This seems like a good opportunity!

Clizia wrote: "I started reading "The Yellow Wallpaper". Is anyone else reading it? Have a nice day!"

I will be reading "The Yellow Wallpaper." Even though it is short, I figure we can still discuss it starting January 1. And since it is so short, we might still have time to read another work and join a different discussion before the end of the month.
I'm looking forward to this.

Is "The Woman In Black" by Susan Hill the basis for the movie of the same name? That could be good.

lethe wrote: "I have a box set of Jane Eyre / Wuthering Heights. I (re-)read Jane Eyre a few years ago, but never read Wuthering Heights yet. This seems like a good opportunity!"

Wuthering Heights is one I started but put aside when the semester started, this could be a great opportunity for me to pick it up again!

Joseph wrote: "Is "The Woman In Black" by Susan Hill the basis for the movie of the same name? That could be good."

Yes, it is the book the movie was based on. It definitely fits as Gothic.

Anita wrote: "Wuthering Heights is one I started but put aside when the semester started, this could be a great opportunity for me to pick it up again!"

I'd like reading it together!

Hello Everyone,
Happy New Year!

I figure I'll start the ball rolling with our discussion of The Yellow Wallpaper. Since it's so short, we probably don't need a spoiler alert thread.

It's been years since I last read it. I'd forgotten how powerful it was and how many themes it offers for exploration. One thing that kept jumping out at me this time around is how complicit the narrator is in her own oppression. She sublimates her voice and defers to the “guidance�� of her husband. She intuits what she needs to maintain health and sanity (i.e. to write, to move out of her virtual prison, etc.) but convinces herself she is wrong to want these things since she believes her husband to be a better judge of what’s best for her. She ends up engaging in subterfuge, hiding her writing, pretending to be asleep, etc. etc. while slowly descending into madness.

The narrator is a powerful example of a woman trapped by a culture and socialization that conspire to cripple her every move, thwarting her every attempt at independence and selfhood. At some level, she recognizes this and identifies with the woman “trapped�� behind the hideous wallpaper. She struggles valiantly to maintain her sanity within the confines of what is considered “permissible�� for a woman at that time. Hers is a heroic battle, one that she tragically loses in the end.

The last scene is particularly powerful. Surrounded by torn slivers of wallpaper, the narrator has lost all touch with reality and embodies the tragic notion that when a woman’s growth is irrevocably stunted, she is reduced to creeping about on all fours.

A horrifying image.

I’m looking forward to reading your thoughts on the story.

BTW: Marge Piercy’s “A Work of Artifice�� is a wonderful poem with a similar theme. The link for those interested in reading it.

It's a great description of being trapped in others' views and relates to the often-asked question "Why didn't this woman leave her abuser?", which is a way of blaming her. In the time of The Yellow Wallpaper, of course, it was literally impossible for a woman to leave and make her own life. But I know women today who were married to a lawyer and a doctor and were brainwashed into thinking they were useless and helpless and needed to stay with their husbands. At least today there are options, and these 2 women were eventually able to leave. But there was a long-lasting effect in terms of their economic situation and even their mental health.

Great poem, too! I love Marge Piercy and I don't remember seeing that one before. It's still relevant in that women who are strong leaders and have outgrown the cute little role expected for them are called "nasty", "bitchy", etc. I'm convinced that's a large part of what happened in the recent election, though it's been downplayed.

Women frequently blame themselves for the abuse--even educated women. When I used to volunteer at the shelter for battered women, I met many residents, some of whom were accomplished and very well educated. But they kept returning to their abuser because they blamed themselves for the abuse, and there was nothing we could do to stop them. The research says a woman leaves her abuser an average of 7 times before she finally leaves him for good.
As you mention in your post, it was virtually impossible for a woman at the time of The Yellow Wallpaper to leave her abuser. It's easier now but it's still hard, and they suffer economically, emotionally, and psychologically for a long time.
People sometimes assume that the only type of abuse is physical. But as The Yellow Wallpaper demonstrates, abuse can also be emotional and psychological. The narrator's husband never abused her physically, but he certainly was guilty of emotional and psychological abuse.
I'm glad you liked the Marge Piercy poem. She is one of my favorites.

I love The Yellow Wallpaper, I have read it several times.

I am currently reading Curious, If True: Strange Tales by Elizabeth Gaskell and it definitely qualifies as gothic. It was not on purpose but it fits with the theme!

I found The Yellow Wallpaper deeply unsettling - but that's gothic by definition, right? ;). I agree that the narrator suppresses all her intuitions about what's best for her. In fact, from the beginning it was clear to me that the narrator is not self confidente and prefers to put her trust in her husband.

lethe wrote: "Anita wrote: "Wuthering Heights is one I started but put aside when the semester started, this could be a great opportunity for me to pick it up again!"

I'd like reading it together!"

Great! :) I'll get a copy from the library and probably start in the second or third week of January. I'll probably pick up The Yellow Wallpaper as well since it seems to be a short read.

Tamara wrote: "BTW: Marge Piercy’s “A Work of Artifice�� is a wonderful poem with a similar theme. The link for those interested in reading it..."

I loved the poem as well, thank you for sharing it. I've only read Marge Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time but it quickly became a book that permeates my thoughts. She's an author I plan to read much more of.

Clizia wrote: "I found The Yellow Wallpaper deeply unsettling - but that's gothic by definition, right? ;). I agree that the narrator suppresses all her intuitions about what's best for her. In fact, from the beg..."

It's definitely an unsettling story, and I like to think that's because it's entirely in the realm of possibility in our lives. A lot of gothic literature can have a supernatural overtone that is easy to enjoy but also to dismiss. With The Yellow Wallpaper, we see that something else entirely is happening, and it's actually a common occurrence in the lives of many. I really appreciate the story for that.

El wrote: "It's definitely an unsettling story, and I like to think that's because it's entirely in the realm of possibility in our lives..."

I agree.
One of the things I find particularly distressing about it is that the narrator obviously has a vivid imagination and is very creative. We have evidence of that from the very beginning of the story. Unfortunately, when that creative energy and imagination is not permitted to materialize in the form of a creative work of art, all that creativity is turned inward and the ramifications can be disastrous.
In Professions for Women, Virginia Woolf recognizes she has to"kill" the Angel in the House if she wants to maintain an authentic self. The narrator in The Yellow Wallpaper sublimates her creativity and ends up losing herself.
A waste of potential and very tragic.

So I just grabbed The Yellow Wallpaper for free off of amazon.com () and decided to read it since it is so short. And wow. It blew me away. By the end my mouth was hanging open.

The thing that got me was the constant building of tension and mental unraveling. One thing that occurred to me is that she could have initially been suffering from post-partum depression.

Another deeply unsettling aspect of the story is the room she stays in. The bed bolted to the floor, the wallpaper peeled away from the bed, "about as far as I can reach," the rings on the walls around the room, the gnawed pieces on the bedframe.... are these things that she is doing to the room or have they been done before?

I found her an untrustworthy narrator. How long was she really in the room? Was it longer than she tells us? Her first entries in the journal discuss how something is off about the house. I'll have to read it again and again.

The windows of the room also have bars, so it could be that it was used in the same way before. I think the protagonist only unconsciously realises that she is in fact imprisoned in the room. At first she only sees the caged woman, but the more she stays there, the more she identifies with her. Could it be that the protagonist suffered from baby blues or post-partum depression?

Clizia wrote: "Could it be that the protagonist suffered from baby blues or post-partum depression.."

Quite possibly. For many years, a lot of even physical ailments that predominantly impacted women went unrecognized by the medical profession and attributed to her "hysteria" i.e. as originating in the womb. Some women were treated with electric shocks to the brain. For the longest period, the medical profession assumed Lupus or eating disorders were all "in her mind" and she could just snap out of it.

These ailments, including post-partum depression, made matters worse for women because they brought into the dominant theory that they were to blame for their ailments. Post-partum depression was particularly insidious because women had been socialized to believe that they would find happiness and fulfillment in motherhood. And if that didn't happen, if they didn't start glowing with joy at the sight of their baby, they internalized their disappointment, transformed it to guilt, and concluded, "There must be something wrong with me. I'm not a proper woman/mother."

Like Anita, I wonder how trustworthy the narrator is. But the thing is we are seeing the world through her lens. That's all we have to go on. Even if she were suffering from post-partum depression and had internalized guilt, the "cure" that was forced on her eventually led to her descent into madness. If she had been supported and allowed to pursue her creative outlet, we may have had an entirely different outcome.

I also just got The Yellow Wallpaper and Other Stories by Charlotte Perkins Gilman on Amazon.

I got it free on the Kindle edition.

My review of Affinity by Sarah Waters

Sarah Waters sets the atmosphere of this early on. Does gothic always take place at an old mansion hidden in fog? No, here it is Millbank prison on the banks of the Thames River. Let's not forget the spirits that we can expect in a gothic novel - certainly Sarah Waters has not.

To Millbank. It is only a week since my last visit, but the mood of the prison has shifted, as if with the season, and it is a darker and more bitter place now, than ever. The towers seemed to have grown higher and broader, and the windows to have shrunk; the very scents of the place seemed to have changed, since I last went there—the grounds smelling of fog and of chimney smoke as well as of sedge, and the wards reeking of nuisance-buckets still, of cramped and unwashed hair and flesh and mouths, but also of gas, and rust, and sickness. There are great black, blistering radiators at the angle of the passages, and these make the corridors very airless and close.

This is written in series of journal entries by the two main characters. They do not alternate, but are interspersed. The chapters are dates, and from this is easily understood from whose journal we are reading. In this way, not only is the story told - a story, which as it progressed was more and more compelling - but also the characters are developed. I said elsewhere that sometimes first person narratives are not always reliable. Let me just admit that I am gullible.

I really like books where there are a couple of sentences that give context for the title.

Who will she fly to then, when she has crossed the spheres? For she will fly to someone, we will all fly to someone, we will all return to that piece of shining matter from which our souls were torn with another, two halves of the same. It may be that the husband your sister has now has that other soul, that has the affinity with her soul—I hope it is. But it may be the next man she takes, or it may be neither.

And

I looked only at her, heard her voice only; and when I spoke at last, it was to ask her this: ‘How will a person know, Selina, when the soul that has the affinity with hers is near it?��

I have read just one other by Sarah Waters - Fingersmith. Her prose is interesting: neither does it rely on simple sentence structure and vocabulary, nor is it so convoluted that the reader is lost along the way. You can depend on an LGBT focus in the main characters, but without being hit over the head with it. The characters are what they are, the story line and characterizations make no attempt to convince the reader that life is unfair because of sexual orientation. Life may be unfair, but isn't it so in some way for everyone?

This title is less well known than her others, but I think it should be otherwise. Another 5-star read for me. I'm on a roll.

I have Fingersmith on my reading list, but this one sounds great too! Besides, I love the diary format.

I think Affinity is great because there is a surprising twist. But then it seemed she decided that more twists would be better. When the 4th about-face happened in Fingersmith and I was only halfway through the book, I stopped reading (even though I liked her other books).

I did finish Fingersmith, but I agree with Robin, at one point I was thinking "Come on!", it was getting a bit too much! It does fit the gothic theme alright though.

Tamara wrote: "Even if she were suffering from post-partum depression and had internalized guilt, the "cure" that was forced on her eventually led to her descent into madness. If she had been supported and allowed to pursue her creative outlet, we may have had an entirely different outcome..."

I absolutely agree with this. Many "cures" for woman were (and are) just forms of smothering a woman's personal desires in the name of society's (read man's) need to control her. Especially irksome when done "for her own good."

Anita wrote: "Many "cures" for woman were (and are) just forms of smothering a woman's personal desires in the name of society's (read man's) need to control her. Especially irksome when done "for her own good.""

Oh yes. Virginia Woolf's "rest cures" come to mind. They were not very beneficial to her, either.

I have read Wuthering Heights several times and would love to talk to anyone who is currently reading it and just wants to chat! Gothic books are my favorite!!

I'm just starting Wuthering Heights today since I finished the other group read (The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society).

I read chapter 1 (of Wuthering Heights) and am laughing at Mr. Lockwood's horrible reception by the rude Mr. Heathcliff and his pack of dogs. Everything is painted harshly! It is already apparent that Emily Bronte knows how to create a gothic atmosphere and a surly household.

one thing I'm having a hard time with is keeping the Catherines and Earnshaws in order. I suspect it will be easier with time. I feel very sorry for the young Heathcliff though :(

I think Catherine could give Scarlett O'Hara a run for her money in the melodrama department. Also, I've switched to hating Heathcliff for his sentiments towards his new bride. I mean, he's pretty much admitting to abusing her physically and emotionally traumatizing her!

I'm about halfway through, but goodreads insists this is a 400+ page read. I'm just over 100 pages. I'm worried I've gotten a shortened version?

Also, Nelly makes horrible choices. I don't know if they're intentional or what, but she is horrible. A horrible maid, a horrible person. Possibly the first (chronologically) frenemy in literature.

Anita wrote: "I'm about halfway through, but goodreads insists this is a 400+ page read. I'm just over 100 pages. I'm worried I've gotten a shortened version?"

I note the Norton Critical Edition is the most popular edition. Those editions always have a *lot* of added material which would extend the length. Most editions seem to have something closer to 300 pages. I've noticed that sometimes a Kindle edition may use page counts of editions where the print is condensed (not abridged) because they have just lifted from a public domain edition rather than reformatting it themselves.

Anita wrote: "I'm about halfway through"

Oh dear, I'll have to hurry if I want to catch up! :-)

Please do, lethe! For myself, the reading goes in spurts. One page I'm re-reading to try to understand what's going on, and the next thing I know, I'm chapters in because some dramatic turn of events. I'm absolutely in love with the drama... and drama is not even one of my things!

Comment Deleted: Authors, please don't use this group to promote your own books. It's one of the very few rules this group has.


Wuthering Heights: I read it a few years ago and seem to be one of the few people I know who neither loves nor hates it. I don't know what I was expecting from it, but it didn't grip me in the way I hoped. I'm always surprised not to see more discussion of the fact that Heathcliff almost certainly Catherine's illegitimate half-brother (I know his relationship to her father is brought up as a question and then denied in the chapters when he's first taken in, but it's ultimately ambiguous in the text and nothing will convince me that he isn't).

I'm up to chapter 7 in Wuthering Heights. Am enjoying it so far!

I am utterly enjoying listening to Jane Eyre for the first time, instead of reading it in print. The slower pace forces me to take time to smell the roses, so to speak, in a way I don't think I did either of the two times I read it in print.

Hi, first, excuse any terrible spelling. My kindle sometimes has a life of its own!

I'm new to the group, but quite pleased to see this discussion. I rather enjoy gothic literature.

I was interested to see the comments about The Yellow Wallpaper. I read this s short while ago and was also blown away! Interestingly I didn't get the impression that the husband was abusive per say. I understood that he actually thought that removing her from all human contact and mental stimulation would 'help'. That being said, the idea of 'treatment' for mental health issues was a form of abuse in itself.

Has anyone read The Woman In White by Wilkie Colins? This sort of touches on that and is definitely classed as gothic.

I have also just finished reading Jane Eyre. Absolutely one of my favourite books of all time. I've read it several times and always discover something new.

I'm now reading a book of short stories inspired by Jane Eyre. Reader, I Married Him, edited by Tracey Chervalier. Again, not the first time. They really are quite enjoyable (although not strictly on the gothic theme - Sorry!)

Cheryl, I have read The Woman in White which is great, though Wilkie Collins was a male so wouldn't apply to this particular Gothic Read. I still recommend it to everyone to read though since it was really well-done for its time, I felt.

I also recently read We Have Always Lived in the Castle which I think is more American or Southern Gothic. It isn't quite a horror for those who don't like that genre but wanted to find something Gothic. I really liked it as well and the atmosphere building is by far the most memorable I've ever read.

Joseph wrote: "Is "The Woman In Black" by Susan Hill the basis for the movie of the same name? That could be good."

That is a great book, I read it years ago, very scary. Better than the movie.

I'm afraid I fell into the GR trap I sometimes find myself in. I'm enjoying Lady Audley's Secret, and wondered what authors might be on Braddon's similar author page. Well, one thing leads to another, so there I was staring at Zofloya, and then the Readers Also Enjoyed for that page is (and yes, there are some men, there - doesn't GR get what we're doing here?):

/book/simila...

When this thread opened, I would not have said I was a reader of gothic novels, but maybe it's time I changed my mind.

Comment Deleted: Authors, please don't use this group to promote your own books. It's one of the very few rules this group has.

I'll second the recommendation for The Woman in Black while I'm here though. It's a nice short/easy read too as we approach the end of the month.

Jane wrote: "Joseph wrote: "Is "The Woman In Black" by Susan Hill the basis for the movie of the same name? That could be good."

That is a great book, I read it years ago, very scary. Better than the movie."

I love The Woman in Black. I read it a few years back. Incredibly chilling! The movie was good but if you havent been I'd recommend the play. It's Marvellous!

Ooooh I've to see the play since I was in primary school. It had actually slipped my mind but I will take this as a reminder to book myself tickets now that I actually live in London! (Probably not this month though, Hamilton tickets coming out the other day bankrupted me).

Anita wrote: "I also recently read We Have Always Lived in the Castle which I think is more American or Southern Gothic. It isn't quite a horror for those who don't like that genre but wanted to fin..."

I'm not a fan of horror, I read this for another challenge and loved it! I would recommend it!

Last night I finished Lady Audley's Secret by Mary Elizabeth Braddon mentioned above for this genre. Here is my review:

The underlying situation of this book is an older man who loves a young woman who has loved before, and may still love her first love. I quickly made a comparison to Trollope's An Old Man's Love which I note was written 20 years after the publication of Lady Audley's Secret. Braddon takes her old man/young woman in an entirely different direction - so different that, after the opening pages, I completely disregarded the comparison.

Some GR readers have this shelved as gothic. To me, it falls somewhere between psychological fiction and gothic, sometimes more one than the other but never quite fitting either. There were brief passages where those critical of the flowery phrases of 19th Century fiction could be justified. Even I, who love 19th Century fiction, rolled my eyes on occasion. While it in no way ever resembles the spare and simplified prose which has become popular, this is quite readable.

I was pleasantly surprised to find some quite decent characterization in what I expected to be simply a plot-driven novel. It is told mostly in third person ominipotent, but we spend a lot of time with one character, Robert Audley, and in that part we know little of what is going on with the other characters. Robert grows from who we think of as a man who lives only for his self-interest and a man with no purpose in life, to one with a single-mindedness of purpose and who looks out for the interest of others. And then there is this:

"...Why don't I love her? Why is it that although I know her to be pretty, and pure, and good, and truthful, I don't love her? Her image never haunts me, except reproachfully. I never see her in my dreams. I never wake up suddenly in the dead of the night with her eyes shining upon me and her warm breath upon my cheek, or with the fingers of her soft hand clinging to mine. No, I'm not in love with her, I can't fall in love with her."

This, I believe, is Braddon's most well-known book, and it may be her best. I am more than willing to try others and see if that is correct. After about 50-60 pages, I couldn't wait to find time to put my nose in this book. That would usually be a 5-star read for me, but for some reason I'm not quite there. However, it is certainly at the very top of my 4-star reads.