Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

She is a good character. She may not be strong like Arya but she's interesting and frankly she's stronger than some people. They say she's whiny and yes she started out that way. But she's eleven! Don't tell me you weren't whiny at eleven! Also I hate it when people complain that Sansa is weak because she's a woman. That's not true. Martin makes weak characters of both genders and doesn't discriminate which is a credit to his writing. Honestly you could argue Jon Snow is the male counterpart of Sansa. He's whiny to. Is his life so bad? Yes he's illegitimate, and that's hard, and yes he was sent to the wall, but really? His reasons are less legitimate that Sansa's. She was being abused by Joffrey. Who's the "weak one" here? And what about Jaime Lannister? A cowardly man who pushed an innocent child out of a window and crippled him for life? What strong character that is! *tongue in cheek*. It's just sad she gets hated on. She cried when her father died, her FATHER, but she gets called whiny. She's not allowed to cry over something like that? Because that's "weak"? I feel bad for Sansa. Arya has the freeodm to live her life the way she wants but as the oldest daughter Sansa never gets that choice even if she wanted to. Sansa gets stuck with the short end of the stick. And it's not fair.

Her character undergoes huge changes throughout the series. She starts off as a naive girl that believes in a perfect world of gallant knight and lovely ladies, who then has to mature quickly after being faced with the harsh reality, ultimately becoming a constant victim of circumstance, who actually does a good job of keeping face through it all. It's not that the character is "weak", nah, she's simply a proper lady in distress that tries her best to do what proper ladies in distress do, and it's certainly understandable. It's just not that thrilling to read about. Every Sansa chapter is emotional manipulation which turns from "Arrgh, stupid Sansa" to "Aww, poor Sansa :(" It gets tiring after a while.

I love Sansa

Early on, Sansa isn't just whiny. She's dismissive of suffering, and deeply judgmental, all stemming from an apparent vanity and undue sense of entitlement. She isn't just shallow. She's selfish to the point that she betrays her sister, then betrays her father, then betrays her entire family. Many of those things could be attributed to naivete or foolishness on her part, but as excuses those get old real fast.

When she is brutalized by Joffrey she is sympathetic because nobody wants to see someone treated that way, but she played a hand in her situation, and even sympathy is balanced with a bit of poetic justice.

She does develop a bit over time in the books. I suspect she's going to wind up being like either her mother or Cersei, but I'm leaning more towards bad than good. We'll see.

I think Sansa serves as a mirror to Arya and vice versa. She's an extreme portrayal of traditional role for women in fantasy (the princess) just as Arya is an extreme of another (the tomboy), and in a sense they're both cautionary tales. I don't think either of them are entirely satisfactory as characters, but that's kind of the point- they're both still maturing and developing.
Sansa is easy to hate because she betrays her father to the Lannisters. She was stupid and selfish (like a lot of teenagers), but for the rest of her life she's going to have to live with the fact that her angst now has a body count, to paraphrase the Heathers! But her development from there on is really interesting. I think the people who "hate" Sansa are being a bit short-sighted- she is definitely one of the "weaker" characters/wills in operation in the book, and people tend to despise vulnerability. But her weaknesses serve an intrinsic purpose within the narrative, and I suspect she's going to becomes a crucial player in the later books.

But my point is why does everyone see Sansa as weak at all? Other then whine what has she done that is considered weak? She does what she has to do in a bad situation and maybe her way of handling it is different from Arya's but its not invalid. Honestly in her position Sansa is handling it in the most appropriate fashion because even though we'd all like her to rebel rebelling could get her killed. She's playing it smart for now and biding her time. Sansa contrary to popular belief is not stupid.

By "weaker" I mean that Sansa's actions can be read as more reactive than others- whereas other characters actively shape their own decisions, Sansa for the most part goes along with things. This is, as you've pointed out, a valid survival strategy, but in contrast to other very strong personalities in the book it can make her seem ineffectual.
Sansa isn't stupid, but certainly in the first few books she is incredibly naive (I actually think Arya and John are also naive, but their actions don't generally have as dramatic consequences). She trusts Joffrey and then Cersei for far longer than she should, she really doesn't see the game the Tyrells are playing until far too late, and her capture by Littlefinger (whose sexual attention she's also mostly oblivious to) is engineered largely through her willingness to go along with romantic notions of rescue. Sansa is slowly being disabused of all her prior notions of life- her personality is being remolded in much the same way that Arya's is at the house of Black and White. I think that Sansa is a fascinating character precisely because of this exploration of her flaws.

Yeah I agree about Jon beimg immature. We also complain about her as being immature but is Jon any better? He's older sure but is he wiser? Even Arya is impulsive and doesn't always think before she's acts. They all have flaws.

I think that Sansa suffers the "pretty girl curse" She IS attractive and (at the outset) a bit unworldly and insensitive.

She does evolve, as most of George R.R. Martin's do. But she is a ready made patsy at the outset. In my experience, one group that really likes to put down the "too pretty girls" are the "bookish girls" and I'm sure that there are a fair number of them that read of and loathe "early Sansa."

I do NOT hate Sansa. She is top three favorite characters for me. (Behind only Brienne and Arya.) I think that she is wise to keep her head down and do what she is told, (it's kept her alive this far.) I think that she is smarter than she and others give her credit for. (She put together who killed Joffrey didn't she?) And I think she is the Young and Beautiful Queen that Cersei was told when she was a child would dethrone her and become a greater Queen then she ever was. (Sansa inspires even the worst of men (The Hound, Little Finger) to defend her honor honourably.)

So I don't know why people dislike, detest or despise Sansa because I love her. I do believe that she will win this Game of Thrones not because she is the greatest warrior or most cunning strategist, but because she is, plain and simple, the right person for the job.

Iris wrote: "I do NOT hate Sansa. She is top three favorite characters for me. (Behind only Brienne and Arya.) I think that she is wise to keep her head down and do what she is told, (it's kept her alive this f..."

She does stamd a good chance! If I had to lay money on the three most likely candidates to survive and take the throne it would be her Bran or Daenerys.

I grew to love Sansa, and I'm not sure I'd like her so much if she hadn't been so unlikeable in the beginning. I respect GRRM for making his characters human, not just likable.

Of course, she's one of my favorites now, so watch her die :(

All the characters that GRRM writes have a distinctive characteristic. While Arya is struggling to live in the wilderness and Jon on the threads of the wall and Bran with people being sacrificed for him, Sansa is using her weapons on a kind of wilderness that is the court. She, better then any of the Stark kids knows how to 'fight' in court and she does this splendidly. She survived the court. And her weapons are lady weapons: kindness, charm and beauty.

Personally, I love Sansa. She keeps alive the spirit of a medieval queen like Guinevere, but of course, Martin style. i get why people don't like her though, she's vapid and dismisses well-loved characters because of their flaws such as Tyrion and Jon. But hey, she's also fourteen so who could judge her.

This is the way her character is set up. To give the reader a way of understanding the ways of Westeros, her characters believes all the folk tails and the songs about knights and what is good and bad.
But this is the opposite of the reality in ASOIAF. Apart from Stark characters - which can be classified as good - there are no good or evil characters. So when I hear Sansa talking, I constantly find her annoying, whiny and dim-witted.

She does undergo changes though. But she still has a hard time catching up with the situation she is in.

Brittany wrote: "Personally, I love Sansa. She keeps alive the spirit of a medieval queen like Guinevere, but of course, Martin style. i get why people don't like her though, she's vapid and dismisses well-loved ch..."

I never understood what is so great about Jon? He's really boring and he whines more than she does and his situation is better than hers. Why is he so well liked?

Hannah wrote: "Brittany wrote: "Personally, I love Sansa. She keeps alive the spirit of a medieval queen like Guinevere, but of course, Martin style. i get why people don't like her though, she's vapid and dismis..."

I get that. Jon is self absorbed and he often offends others because of his bastard obsession. But on the other hand he's the rebel Stark, since Rob was supposed to be a more traditional take on a king- righteous and fair. but yeah, Sansa has definitely been through more stuff han Jon, I mean he's surrounded by friends at Castle Black.

Because she is a brainless moron, maybe?

I think it's easy to suggest that Sansa is too whiny, perhaps because she has always been surrounded by wealth. Arya resorts to a state of vagrancy throughout much of the series. Bran (and to a certain extent, Rickon) is in an incredibly isolated part of Westeros, surrounded by abominations. Jon is similarly in a very dangerous region of Westeros, and is faced with looming threats perpetually. Robb took it upon himself to be the King in the North, and threw himself into the game of thrones.

That leaves Sansa. She's subjected to physical abuse, but the level of danger she finds herself in (pre-Purple Wedding) pales in comparison to the adversity facing the other Stark children. I think she's too accustomed to being pampered and living a highborn lifestyle, and so being dragged into a world of deceit, plots and intrigue is very alien to her.

Personally I like how Sansa has been changing but I'm still not sure that I entirely forgive her for NOT telling the truth Joffrey lied about Arya's dire wolf attacking him.

If she'd shown more backbone then, perhaps many things might have been different now. Remember... King Robert was on the verge of sending Joffrey away to foster with Lord Aryn before he was poisoned. If Robert had sent Joffrey to foster with someone at the time of the wolf incident, just think how differently the story might have gone.

Stephen wrote: "Personally I like how Sansa has been changing but I'm still not sure that I entirely forgive her for NOT telling the truth Joffrey lied about Arya's dire wolf attacking him.

If she'd shown more b..."

I agree that she should have defended her sister at the time, but I don't hold it against her now. At the time she was, what, 11? And she never said that Arya attacked Joffrey or that Joffrey was lying. She was trying to mediate. She was an, albeit poor, ambassador for peace.

They do? She's my second favorite character in the entire series.

She is a bit bratty in the first book but I loved reading all her chapters.

Iris wrote: "Stephen wrote: "Personally I like how Sansa has been changing but I'm still not sure that I entirely forgive her for NOT telling the truth Joffrey lied about Arya's dire wolf attacking him.

If sh..."

Agreed. And she only wrote those letters to her mother and sibling about her father's "treason" because she had too. She didn't know they would kill her father the same way she didn't know they would kill that village boy when the direwolf attacked Joffrey.

Stephen wrote: "Personally I like how Sansa has been changing but I'm still not sure that I entirely forgive her for NOT telling the truth Joffrey lied about Arya's dire wolf attacking him.

If she'd shown more b..."

My sentiments exactly. The only reason i hated* her was because she got Lady killed indirectly. her stupidity did. while it might have sparked a war then and there if she told joffrey attacked her sister and nymeria was only defending her. i'd still would have loved to see some sense of family (duty,honor) in her, family first, always.

*past tense. hated. she's not so bad once i read through the books.

Personally, I love Sansa. Yes, its true at the beginning she's whiny, selfish, and so, so naive but she has this huge character arc, and thats whats really made me love her. At the beginning she's obsessed with her silly dreams and ideas of life, but thats all stripped away after she sees her father killed by the person she was basing her dreams on. People say that she's stupid, and yes at the beginning she's naive and its easy to mistake those things for being the same, but she loses that naiveté pretty fast and you can see that she is actually really smart. She survived all the insanity of Kingslanding; that takes real brains. While she was there she learnt to play the game by the best players there are (Littlefinger, Varys, Tyrion, Cersei, the Tyrells.), she's learnt from them and now has the possibility of becoming a major player herself. People say that she's weak, but she survived Kingslanding. She saw her father killed by the person she had a crush on (and she knows that she unintentionally had a hand in getting him killed), her family was killed by the people she had to pretend to love to survive, she was physically and mentally abused by the person she used to love, and she was surrounded by a beehive of plots and intrigue in which everyone wanted to use her. She survived that and stayed strong throughout it, there are not many other characters who could not do that. And despite having to have to go through that she stayed sane and even kind, which is incredible.
She's so often compared to Arya and said to be weaker, but thats complete crap. They both are really strong, but in different ways. She's said to be weak because she doesn't go around stabbing anyone who hurts her (don't get me wrong, I love Arya, but thats a different sort of strength). She has a more quiet sort of strength, she perseveres and survives and stays strong and loyal throughout. She's more contained, but is still a fighter and a surviver. I think that the audiences are more perceptive and appreciative of the other type of strength, and thats why she's so often ignored.
Yes, she still has a ton of faults and has made a lot of mistakes, but I think she has lot of potential to become a stronger person and a major player, maybe even a queen (a good and just one). She's complicated, but so are all of GRRMs characters, and thats why I love them so much.

(sorry for the long post, I just have a lot of Sansa love and will defend her to the death)

I personally don't like Sansa because she plays the "damsel in distress" too well. She was more willing to play into the idea of a made up fairy tale instead of standing up for her little sister or for her Dad. I would die for my Dad. She is/was superficial and vapid. All she cared about was becoming Queen and not in the way the other women on the show care. She wanted pretty dresses and parties. She's not interested in becoming Queen to help people or even advance her family name, she want's it for superficial reasons.

I do think she has started to grow and change, but her final scenes of last season show that she is changing for the worse, not for the better. At the end of the day though, GRRM created characters for us to hate and characters for us to love. I personally hate her and love Jon Snow. Others feel the other way around and that's just one of the many reasons this series is AMAZING.

Cara wrote: "Personally, I love Sansa. Yes, its true at the beginning she's whiny, selfish, and so, so naive but she has this huge character arc, and thats whats really made me love her. At the beginning she's ..."

That's great! That's what this thread is for! I agree people compare her to Arya to much, they have different strengths. I think Sansa could be a great queen.

Gary wrote: "Early on, Sansa isn't just whiny. She's dismissive of suffering, and deeply judgmental, all stemming from an apparent vanity and undue sense of entitlement. She isn't just shallow. She's selfish..."

Yes. The betrayal. It killed, for me, what may have been starting as sympathy. Oh, poor baby, you don't want to go home because you love the creepy, spoiled buy who got your wolf killed with his whiny theatrics? You're so blind to the situation around you that when your father says, you're going home because it's dangerous, you tell the bitchy, fake mother of your intended, thus getting your father killed? Let me bring out my sympathy for you. Not exactly.

Stephen wrote: "I think that Sansa suffers the "pretty girl curse" She IS attractive and (at the outset) a bit unworldly and insensitive.

She does evolve, as most of George R.R. Martin's do. But ..."

Yes, early Sansa. I'm almost finished with the first installment, having not seen the series, and trying to stay unspoiled! But it's left me with a bad taste for her, although Arya is deliberately volatile and trouble causing on her own,I never got a feeling of pettiness or sabotage from her character.

Iris wrote: "I do NOT hate Sansa. She is top three favorite characters for me. (Behind only Brienne and Arya.) I think that she is wise to keep her head down and do what she is told, (it's kept her alive this f..."

Iris wrote: "I do NOT hate Sansa. She is top three favorite characters for me. (Behind only Brienne and Arya.) I think that she is wise to keep her head down and do what she is told, (it's kept her alive this f..."

Actually, Sansa never figured out who killed Joffrey. It was Littlefinger who told her who it was.

Andrea wrote: "Gary wrote: "Early on, Sansa isn't just whiny. She's dismissive of suffering, and deeply judgmental, all stemming from an apparent vanity and undue sense of entitlement. She isn't just shallow. ..."

Sansa did not think going to Cersei was a bad thing. She believed Cersei was a good person, how was she supposed to know otherwise? She acted immaturely but she had no idea of the consequences. Don't blame her for something she didn't know the outcome of.

I know that a lot of people don't care for her because of the reasons listed many times by others on this thread, but I've always liked her. Yes she was stupid and naive in the first book especially, but as the story has progressed she has really started to learn the rules of the game. I have a feeling that she's really going to become very good at the political side of the game in the last two books. She may even surprise Cersei and Littlefinger with how well she'll learn how to play it, but maybe not, that's just my hunch. Who knows, knowing this series she may die in chapter 2 of the next book!

I think that Sansa was a bit naïve, but who wouldn't be a bit naïve at elven and I also appreciate the fact that Sansa is doing whatever it takes to keep her alive, even thought the consequences are very tough to swallow and I find that very smart since obeying the powerful is a great way to live a lot longer than her other relatives per say.

Hannah wrote: "Sansa did not think going to Cersei was a bad thing. She believed Cersei was a good person, how was she supposed to know otherwise? She acted immaturely but she had no idea of the consequences. Don't blame her for something she didn't know the outcome of."

On a personal level, after Cersei has Sansa's wolf killed rather than Arya's (who had hers run away) I think Sansa should be aware of Cersei's character. In lying to everyone about Joffrey's actions in that moment she saw not only saw her own pet killed, but she had to be aware that the butcher's boy was killed as well. So, I think a reasonable person would be aware that Cersei was not of good character, and would be equally aware that the consequences were life and death.

Gary wrote: "... she saw not only saw her own pet killed, but she had to be aware that the butcher's boy was killed as well. So, I think a reasonable person would be aware that Cersei was not of good character, and would be equally aware that the consequences were life and death."

This for me should have made her question her childishly romantic notions about the court & behaviour there. That she continued to want to be part of it - for the surface glamour - does not endear her to me.

This is interesting, because if there's one thing I see a lot of around here, it's threads in defense of Sansa. But I understand why. People seem to think they need to dislike her by default because she's constantly forced to play the role of the "stupid little girl". But this is what keeps her going and allows her to survive in a terrible situation.

If I had to guess, I would say the way she's disliked is because of the fact that no one would want to trade places with her. It's sort of an automated defense, to think that just because someone is in the crappy situation is because they deserve to be. It's much harder to acknowledge that the world is can be a crappy place and a person can get what they don't deserve.

Nathan wrote: "I know that a lot of people don't care for her because of the reasons listed many times by others on this thread, but I've always liked her. Yes she was stupid and naive in the first book especiall..."

I hope not! I really look forward to her chapters. She is pretty cool if you ask me.

Matthew wrote: " ... If I had to guess, I would say the way she's disliked is because of the fact that no one would want to trade places with her. It's sort of an automated defense, to think that just because someone is in the crappy situation is because they deserve to be. It's much harder to acknowledge that the world is can be a crappy place and a person can get what they don't deserve."

That doesn't apply to me. Good & bad things happen to the deserving and undeserving. I dislike her because she was willfully blind to the reality of what happened to & around her. I think she told Cersei about her father's plans to leave Kings Landing because she wanted to stay there. She wouldn't give up her romantic ideal of princely love and court when she knew from bitter personal experience that Cersei would want revenge paid out even if the only target was an unrelated party. Sansa wasn't stupid, she made her choices. She also gets the consequences of them.

Wendy wrote: "Matthew wrote: " ... If I had to guess, I would say the way she's disliked is because of the fact that no one would want to trade places with her. It's sort of an automated defense, to think that j..."

Yes, she made a choice and it was a mistake. But to say that she should have known better based on a single incident which resulted in her pups being killed because one bit Joffrey is overreaching to say the least. She had no way of knowing what was going on between Cersei and Ned, or what was at stake. And she had no way of knowing what would come of it.

She also had no way of knowing the depth of Cersei's vindictiveness or ambition, since she didn't have the benefit of an omniscient view the way the reader did. In all honesty, it sounds like this DOES apply to you. Hearing you're estimation of her, it really seems like you are looking for a reason to blame her for her own suffering.

Matthew wrote: " Hearing you're estimation of her, it really seems like you are looking for a reason to blame her for her own suffering."

wow, make a massive assumption. What part of good & bad things happen to everyone did you fail to notice me saying??

Sure she didn't know Cersei's depths, but she didn't wait to find out either. Even after her direwolf was killed and the butcher's boy - someone she knew! She wasn't the type of person I would have liked when I was that age. I might have a better understanding of her now, but that doesn't mean I have to endorse her behaviour.

There are consequences for how we behave, and even as an eleven year old I was aware of this. How she managed to be oblivious baffles me given her father's fairly direct approach to justice, but I accept that this is a work fiction.

I hope she matures as she grows up, but that remains to be seen.

Matthew wrote: "But to say that she should have known better based on a single incident which resulted in her pups being killed because one bit Joffrey is overreaching to say the least."

Arya's friend, the butcher's boy, was also hunted and murdered as part of the same incident--and that's really the more important part--so I don't think it's over-reaching. She sees Cersei being extraordinarily callous and bloodthirsty, yet decides to go to her later and betray her family. That's not a smart move.

I read some of these comments and the way that some people are expressing themselves about an 11 year-old girl (and who was raised in her context) and truly hope those people don't have children or work with children.

Laura wrote: "I read some of these comments and the way that some people are expressing themselves about an 11 year-old girl (and who was raised in her context) and truly hope those people don't have children or work with children."

Well, now, THAT seems like over-reaching....

Wendy wrote: "Matthew wrote: " Hearing you're estimation of her, it really seems like you are looking for a reason to blame her for her own suffering."

wow, make a massive assumption. What part of good & bad th..."

Sure, you said "bad things happen to the deserving and undeserving alike", and then you went on to say "I dislike her because she was willfully blind to the reality of what happened to & around her." How am I assuming anything? You've outright said you don't like her because you think she should have known better. And as I said, these sound like unrealistic expectations based on an omniscient view.

And so does "she didn't wait to find out". What do you mean by this? That she should have waited to know more about Cersei's character before trusting her? How does that work? They were in the midst of a crisis and she did what she thought was right. Saying she should have taken the time to test what kind of person Cersei was first sounds like more of the same.

Also, the butcher's boy was Arya's friend, and it was the Hound who killed him by riding him down. Saying she should have known what kind of person Cersei was by this one incident is unrealistic too. It was a preview of their ugly nature, but time passed and she chose to believe Joffrey would be loving and not terrible again because that's what he promised he would be and that's what she wanted to believe.

Hate her if you will for being childish and naive, which she was, but let's not say she should have been smarter based on an expectation of what children are supposed to know.

Gary wrote: "Laura wrote: "I read some of these comments and the way that some people are expressing themselves about an 11 year-old girl (and who was raised in her context) and truly hope those people don't ha..."

It may be, but truly, people who are so harsh on a child scare me around kids, for real. Not all the comments are too harsh (some are just illogical), but some are as over-reaching as you found mine.

whatevs, Matthew you're determined to think the best of her, and I dislike the child she was. Which is fine ... I don't expect to change your mind about her or myself.

Some children know to be observant and take notice of dramatic things that happen around them. Some don't. Some are selfish & some aren't.

Wendy wrote: "whatevs, Matthew you're determined to think the best of her, and I dislike the child she was. Which is fine ... I don't expect to change your mind about her or myself.

Some children know to be o..."

Obviously you we never selfish! Pleeez!

I think the wolves play a very important part of the Stark's characters. They are joined to their wolves supernaturally and I think when Sansa's wolf was killed, it killed a part of her that would allow her to fight back and be stronger and not be manipulated by everyone at court. I think its caused her to be weak willed and very afraid to take some chances that could have saved her. One thing you can say about the other Stark's is they are not weak willed, they are determined to fulfill what they feel they need to do, whereas, Sansa is twisting in the wind waiting for someone to save her. I know she is young, but so were her brothers and sisters. I don't think her character is evil, but at this point I think she needs to prove herself. Jon is my favorite. I think he has done well with what he has been given. His relationship to his wolf is a large part of him. I would say, based on his upbringing and the scorn he lived with, he has redeemed himself. He has taken his duties at the wall seriously and not everyone there has been his friend.
I still hope that he is alive.

Jon is okay. Not great but okay. Honestly he is so perfect he is a little bit boring. Sansa is far more compelling.