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Welcome to the first discussion in our Marlowe Challenge for 2018! The Big Sleep, is one of our official January BOM books. After that, you can read the rest of the Marlowe series at your own pace throughout the rest of the year. I will set up a new topic for each book as we go so you can discuss them as you read.

Happy reading and discussing!

So when I was in college I took a Film Noir class where we first read the book and then watched the movie. Definitely a favorite class for sure! The problem is... I don't remember reading The Big Sleep. And that troubles me. I mean, how can you have a class like that and NOT read it?! Unless we read something else by Chandler.

I only kept two books from that class, two anthologies, which do not include Chandler. And yet, as I started to read this last night, I was captivated right off the bat, wanting to quote passages already, which is rare for me! If we did read it in college, how could I have returned this to the book store for mere pennies, like I musts have done?

Well, anyway, I don't know. At least now I'll be able to say I've read it. lol.

And yes, I'm enjoying it a lot so far. There are some great one line descriptions in here that are just amazing. I may quote them here later. :-)

I can see exactly who influenced Joseph Hansen. Lol. It’s amazing how similar they are. Though I also wonder if a part of that is because they were writing about the same location.

Anyway, this was the first description that really caught my eye: “The plants filled the place, a forest of them, with nasty meaty leaves and stalks like the newly washed fingers of dead men.�

Certainly paints a picture, doesn’t it?

Jordan wrote: "So when I was in college I took a Film Noir class where we first read the book and then watched the movie. Definitely a favorite class for sure! The problem is... I don't remember reading The Big Sleep..."

Well, I've seen the movie and read the book, but I don't remember much, because it was so many years ago...

Antonella wrote: "Jordan wrote: "So when I was in college I took a Film Noir class where we first read the book and then watched the movie. Definitely a favorite class for sure! The problem is... I don't remember re..."

So this is a great opportunity for you to reacquaint yourself with the books, and maybe even the movies. :-)

Jordan wrote: "I can see exactly who influenced Joseph Hansen. Lol. It’s amazing how similar they are. Though I also wonder if a part of that is because they were writing about the same location.

Anyway, this w..."

I'm paying attention to this too, but feel that Chandler's descriptions are much darker than Hansen's. Chandler paints a cynical but witty attitude for Marlowe, even in the first chapters of this one. It's almost a requirement for a noir detective, yes? :)

Jordan wrote: "So this is a great opportunity for you to reacquaint yourself with the books, and maybe even the movies. :-)"

You are a great motivator, dear Jordan. In fact I own the book on paper and I was thinking about rereading, I just don't know if I'll manage it: new books are also appealing.

I think you’re right, Marlowe’s descriptions are darker than Brandstetter’s for sure.

I think these will be quick reads. For me at least. But we’ll see. I signed up to blog about new and upcoming lgbtq books, including mm romance titles, at work this year, so yeah, I’ll be busy reading new stuff for the first time. :-)

Thank you for setting up this topic and also the year-long challenge one, Jordan.

I ended up reading the series in a quick pace a couple of years ago after totally, completely falling in love with Chandler's writing. I'll try to take part in this discussion later on, but already I can say this: I loved the twisty plot of The Big Sleep. And I adore Chandler's economical, biting, dark-ish, smart writing.

I'm a bit late because I forgot about it and started Genji Monogatari, bit I hope to get on track soon.

I’m still reading this one myself. Despite having a lot of time at home lately, I haven’t had as much reading time as usual, so I’m reading it in bits and pieces before bed. Lol. I’m about halfway through, so hopefully I can finish it up someday soon.

What do you mean about time scale?

As I’m reading this, the actions of the two Sternwood women is starting to get to me. Probably in part because this is written in first person, I’m sort of thinking what I would do in his shoes, since I’m technically there.

But I’m wondering your thoughts on the matter. My first inclination is to say someone needs to get them under control, or that they should have been brought up with stricter rules, in terms of how they act around strange men. Carmen is especially annoying.

Part of it is for their safety, but also, it’s irritating when someone tells you no, but you keep doing it.

I’m not sure I’m making sense here so I’ll just go back to reading and see what Marlowe does with this new situation. At least he didn’t discover a dead body. That had been my first thought.

Mymymble wrote: "Jordan wrote: "What do you mean about time scale?"

When are we supposed to finish."

For this particular book, hopefully, the end of January, though it's not a problem if you don't. You can keep chatting in this thread for as long as you want.

The rest of the series you can read at your own pace for the rest of the year.

:-)

Gosh, there was a great quote I wanted to mention here, but darned if I can’t remember or find it again. But, I’ve only got about eight pages left, so I’ll be finishing it up in a little while when I get to bed. :-)

I should have seen that ending coming... I think? lol.

Jordan wrote: "I should have seen that ending coming... I think? lol."

Now you have me intrigued 😉

Lol, anything to get you, or keep you, reading! :-P

Jordan wrote: "Lol, anything to get you, or keep you, reading! :-P"
Just finished. This one was so good! I loved every minute of It 😀

So glad you enjoyed it!

So I'm at about the 2/3 mark and feeling as though I never read this before. I know that I did, but it might as well have been in another lifetime (like 30+ years ago). And I suppose those memories are blurred with haphazard impressions of the Bogart/Bacall film.

I'm wondering what the non-U.S. readers are making of some of the slang, especially the period-archaiec usages that I'm challenged by. Agnes was a "torcher" before. I had to search, although afterwards it was kind of obvious. :)

Marlowe's descriptions of his surroundings are... I guess gothic, is a good word to use. Dark poetry.

Also, I realized that I misused "noir" in an earlier post. I thought that this was a good explanation differentiating hard-boiled and noir:

Film analyst Eddie Muller writes, “If a private eye is hired by an old geezer to prove his wife’s cheating on him and the shamus discovers long-buried family secrets and solves a couple of murders before returning to his lonely office � that’s detective fiction. If the same private eye gets seduced by the geezer’s wife, kills the old coot for her, gets double-crossed by his lover and ends up shot to death by his old partner from the police force � I can say with complete assurance: you are wallowing in NOIR."

� from

Karen wrote: "So I'm at about the 2/3 mark and feeling as though I never read this before. I know that I did, but it might as well have been in another lifetime (like 30+ years ago). And I suppose those memories..."

For me the slang was disconcerting and difficult at first. But with context and some research it was more or less ok... I suppouse I lost part of the meanings, because by the middle of the book I stopped looking for the words and went with the context.
I find the slang really interesting though. When I picked these up in English I didn't think about that, nor did I think it could be an issue for my reading, and it wasn't, or at least not exactly. It's not the same as when I tried to read "A study in Scarlet" in English and I almost had to quit... But reading how the language evolves is always interesting, so different from the contemporary writings I usually read.

Some classic Marlowe lines:

It seemed like a nice neighborhood to have bad habits in.

Neither of the two people in the room paid any attention to the way I came in, although only one of them was dead.

A pretty, spoiled and not very bright little girl who had gone very, very wrong, and nobody was doing anything about it. To hell with the rich. They made me sick.

Her eyes became narrow and almost black and as shallow as enamel on a cafeteria tray. She had had an idea.

“You met her, I suppose?�
“Yes. She’d make a jazzy weekend, but she’d be wearing for a steady diet.�

“Men have been shot for little things like that, Marlowe.�
“Men have been shot for practically nothing. The first time we met I told you I was a detective. Get it through your lovely head. I work at it, lady. I don’t play at it.�

And just in case we haven't noted Marlowe's opinion of women, there's this one. ;)

You can have a hangover from other things than alcohol. I had one from women. Women made me sick.

And here's this rather telling set of lines, which is just about the most we're directly told about Marlowe in this book. Notice that we're not given much in the way of backstory or descriptive details? We discover Marlowe through his words and actions, and the responses he gets from others.

I didn’t mind what she called me, what anybody called me. But this was the room I had to live in. It was all I had in the way of a home. In it was everything that was mine, that had any association for me, any past, anything that took the place of a family. Not much; a few books, pictures, radio, chessmen, old letters, stuff like that. Nothing. Such as they were they had all my memories. I couldn’t stand her in that room any longer. What she called me only reminded me of that.

There's also the casual homophobia, typical of the period, but still offputting today. And I can't help reading something in to it...

I took my dark glasses off and tapped them delicately on the inside of my left wrist. If you can weigh a hundred and ninety pounds and look like a fairy, I was doing my best.

The Chinese junk on the walls, the rug, the fussy lamps, the teakwood stuff, the sticky riot of colors, the totem pole, the flagon of ether and laudanum—all this in the daytime had a stealthy nastiness, like a fag party.

“You must have thought a lot of that queen,� I said.
“Go � yourself,� the boy said softly..."

“Who said I had a key?�
“Don’t kid me, son. The fag gave you one. You’ve got a nice clean manly little room in there. He shooed you out and locked it up when he had lady visitors. He was like Caesar, a husband to women and a wife to men. Think I can’t figure people like him and you out?�

...but he swung on me just the same. It caught me flush on the chin. I backstepped fast enough to keep from falling, but I took plenty of the punch. It was meant to be a hard one, but a pansy has no iron in his bones, whatever he looks like.

"Geiger was living with the punk I got outside in my car. I mean living with him, if you get the idea.�

He was afraid of the police, of course, being what he is...

I began reading Hard-Boiled Anxiety: The Freudian Desires of Dashiell Hammett, Raymond Chandler, Ross Macdonald, and Their Detectives. Not a Freud proponent myself, but this is well-written and interesting so far.

Just one provocative tidbit: Factor in as well the too-little-considered, doubled reality that Chandler was regarded as a closeted homosexual by his friends in England while living to all intents and purposes as a heterosexual in the United States.

One of the comments he makes about women, might have been the hangover comment, had me wondering about his sexuality. I certainly didn’t expect to come across gay characters in this series at all. So, finding them in the first book made me wonder about Marlowe too. Hadn’t thought about Chandler though. Hmm...


Also, his thoughts in his apartment were priceless. I really felt a connection to him then, because I would have felt the same way, I think. And I was surprised at that. His restraint against her is admirable, but then, I got the feeling he just wasn’t Into women at all.

Thanks, Karen, for posting all these great lines!

I’ll occasionally post a discussion question, for this, until the end of the month. Here’s the first one: think about the status of each character. Do you see any social commentary in the novel? Why or why not?

Jordan wrote: "I’ll occasionally post a discussion question, for this, until the end of the month. Here’s the first one: think about the status of each character. Do you see any social commentary in the novel? Wh..."

Well, along with Marlowe's "hate the rich" comment, there's this (Captain Gregory of the Missing Persons Bureau to Marlowe):

"Being a copper I like to see the law win. I’d like to see the flashy well-dressed muggs like Eddie Mars spoiling their manicures in the rock quarry at Folsom, alongside of the poor little slum-bred hard guys that got knocked over on their first caper and never had a break since. That’s what I’d like. You and me both lived too long to think I’m likely to see it happen. Not in this town, not in any town half this size, in any part of this wide, green and beautiful U.S.A. We just don’t run our country that way.�

There's a vivid picture of an American class system based on money/wealth in this book. Marlowe is aware of the class system, but doesn't seem to envy wealth and is far from reverent. He squeaks by financially, choosing to do the right thing (as best he can).

Interestingly, despite his distain for the rich, Marlowe seems to like, or at least respect, the General. Marlowe bases his opinions on his perceptions of the character of people. And he's a pretty good judge of character (note his comments regarding "the little man"). Marlowe's a much better judge than the stereotypical noir P.I. who's always fooled by the femme fatale. :)

Karen wrote: "Jordan wrote: "I’ll occasionally post a discussion question, for this, until the end of the month. Here’s the first one: think about the status of each character. Do you see any social commentary i..."

Very true on all accounts!

Also, that long quote really did stick with me too. "We don't run our country that way." Yep. We're nearly 100 years later, and we still don't run it that way. Though I wish we did!

What do you like best about Marlowe? What do you like least about him?

Jordan wrote: "What do you like best about Marlowe? What do you like least about him?"

Con: Well, I suppose Marlowe drinks too much. ;) But that was regarded somewhat differently at the time these were written, and they're part of how we romanticize those hard-drinking, hard-boiled types.

Pro: Despite his cynicism, he has strong morals, and isn't compromised.

What do you like/dislike, Jordan?

Karen wrote: "Jordan wrote: "What do you like best about Marlowe? What do you like least about him?"

Con: Well, I suppose Marlowe drinks too much. ;) But that was regarded somewhat differently at the time these..."

Definitely his strong morals are a plus. I think there's a softer side hidden in there. I always fall for that. :-)

You know, he didn't drink as much as I expected him to, so I'm a little more okay with that.

Off hand, I can't think of what bothers me... I felt very much like him in some ways, except that I don't drink. lol. With (Carmen?) when she was in his bed, I was feeling pretty much the same as him. I would have loathed someone else being in my private, safe space without asking like that, you know?

Seeing as I just discovered another short story collection I somehow missed before, I just want to add a list of all the Marlowe books so it's here for you guys:

The original novels:
The Big Sleep - #1
Farewell, My Lovely - #2
The High Window - #3
The Lady in the Lake - #4
The Little Sister - #5
The Long Goodbye - #6
Playback - #7

Short story collections:
The Simple Art of Murder
Trouble Is My Business

Second author:
Poodle Springs - Started by Chandler before his death, and finished by acclaimed author Robert B. Parker

I am planning, if I can, to read all ten of these for the challenge. As far as I know, this is pretty much everything to do with Marlowe. The Everyman's Library short story collection is over 1,000 pages, and includes the short stories that were eventually turned into the novels. I'm not counting those stories. I think the ones here include everything else.

Correct me if I'm wrong, please!