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Hello Everyone,

For the week of March 19th � March 25th, we are reading chapters 6 and 7 of Caesar: Life of a Colossus by Adrian Goldsworthy.

The fourth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK FOUR - March 19th � March 25th -> 6. Conspiracy and 7. Scandal (109-151)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off February 26th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~Vicki

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Adrian Goldsworthy

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.

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Also, the citation thread: (for Unreasonable Men - look at examples)

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Introduction Thread

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Table of Contents and Syllabus

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Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Here is the link:

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Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations or other books either non fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self promotion, please.

Here is the link:

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Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - Spoiler Thread

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Link:

by Adrian Goldsworthy

Everyone, for the week of March 19th � March 25th, we are reading Chapters 6 and 7.

The fourth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK FOUR - March 19th � March 25th -> 6. Conspiracy and 7. Scandal (109-151)

Chapter Overview and Summary:

Chapter 6. Conspiracy


Cicero denouncing Catiline

This chapter introduces Cato the Younger and covers the events leading up to the discovery of the Catiline Conspiracy.

Chapter 7. Scandal


Women celebrating the Bona Dea Rituals

This chapter covers the problem of what to do with the conspirators still in Rome, and the Bona Dea scandal.

Cicero denouncing Catiline

Discussion Topics for Chapter VI:

1. What do you think of Crassus as contrasted to Pompey?

2. Bribery in elections seems to have been rampant, both in consular elections and possibly Caesar’s election as Pontifex Maximus. Why didn’t bribery laws do any good?

Discussion Topics for Chapter VII:

1. Why would Crassus and Caesar be part of Catiline’s conspiracy? Crassus had no debts, and in fact lots of people owed him money, and although Caesar was heavily in debt, he didn’t seem worried about his ability to ultimately pay up.

2. Why did Caesar propose lifetime imprisonment for the captured conspirators in various towns? There were no facilities for this and it would have been very difficult to carry it out.

I was surprised to read that Crassus was not the richest man in Rome, but was second to Pompey. It seems that Pompey was always outdoing him. Crassus defeated Spartacus, but Pompey mopped up the remaining rebels and got a triumph, while Crassus only got an ovation.

Vicki wrote: 2. Why did Caesar propose lifetime imprisonment for the captured conspirators in various towns? There were no facilities for this and it would have been very difficult to carry it out. .."

Caesar's sympathies were clearly with Catiline, with who he had cooperated in the past and whose policy views were more populist than Cicero and closer to his own. Besides the fact that capital punishment was highly unusual, he may have genuinely believed in clemency as a way to turn enemies into allies. Would he have succeeded, it would be very advantageous for him to have powerful allies spread around the country, ready to return a favor.

Maybe Caesar did this because of the attention his position would get. No one else proposed a milder punishment. Caesar would get a lot of attention because of his proposal. As with the trials: Caesar always chose the cases that would get a lot of publicity.

Or maybe this was a first sign of his mercifulness the author mentioned in the introduction.

Bribery in elections seems to have been rampant, both in consular elections and possibly Caesar’s election as Pontifex Maximus. Why didn’t bribery laws do any good?

Laws are useless unless you have a way to enforce the law. Rome didn't have a "police" force capable of enforcing the laws, so many laws were ignored.

It's interesting how sparse the government apparatus was. Basically just the few dozen elected officials. No police, no fire department, no tax collectors, no prisons. Sounds like the Tea Party would be right at home there (sorry for injecting US politics).

I love the Bona Dea scandal. Clodius dressing up like a woman and being discovered by one of the female slaves, then denounced and thrown out by Caesar's mother, then put on trial with Cicero not giving him an alibi. It's almost too juicy to be true.

The Bona Dea scandal sounds like a scene from a comedy show (the sort of thing that would happen in the tv show 'Plebs').

Crassus seems like a very smart individual. An astute businessman/property magnate, as well as having the majority of the senate in his pocket sets him up to be quite a formidable character to come across.

Touching on the rampant bribery, I imagine it would be a very difficult thing to prove (unless your name is Cato), and the bribes could have been dressed up in so many ways (think Steve Coogan in 'The Other Guys' - hands over Jersey Boys tickets - "it's not a bribe").

Crassus is indeed an interesting character, Danny. I like how he created his own private fire department, where you had to sell your property to him before he'd put out the fire. The incident with the Vestal Virgin, where people thought he was seducing her, but he really just wanted to buy her property, is really funny.

I think these chapters sort of indicate how small the ruling groups were. That one could live with these intrigues and pressures is difficult to understand and maybe this was only possible in part due to the predominance of not being found guilty of many transgressions.

It also strikes me as to what "universal men" these guys were - orators, soldiers, managers (governors i.e.) legislators, leaders of government........ and that Rome was prosperous enough, for our players, to have personal lives that permitted non fidelity and other pleasures.

The personal debt issue is vexing but maybe those who really couldn't pay just were swept away etc.

Thanks for your comments, Vincent. It's always struck me as a bit weird that the men who were elected to lead the government, the consuls, were expected to also lead the legions in whatever war Rome happened to be in at the time. Did people vote on their idea of who would be the best general? Sometimes it worked out, and sometimes it was a disaster.