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This is our discussion of the classic fantasy novel...

On Stranger Tides by Tim Powers
(1987)

Aaarggh. Thar be no pirate talk. (Also, no show tunes.)

Why show tunes?

I am starting this today - have two others to finish. I hate February, what a short month.

Silvana wrote: "Why show tunes?."

I sink a few more ships, it’s true,
Than a well-bred monarch ought to do;

For I am a Pirate King!
And it is, it is a glorious thing
To be a Pirate King!

Overall, I didn't especially care for the novel. It's got a collection of rather ugly and unlikable characters in an equally ugly environment.

My appreciation was especially dampened early on by some rather turgid prose. In 1986 there was a global shortage of periods, and publishers everywhere were encouraging authors to use more conjunctions and independent clauses in their writing rather than coming to a full stop. Mr. Powers responded to this with some of the better examples of run-on sentences (these from the first couple of pages, so non-spoiler.)

The path became steeper, and soon he had to sheathe his machete in order to have his hand free to grab branches and pull himself along, and for a while his heart was pounding so alarmingly that he thought it would burst, despite the protective drogue the black man had given him� then they had got above the level of the surrounding jungle and the sea breeze found them and he called to his companion to stop so that he could catch his breath in the fresh air and enjoy the coolness of it in his sopping white hair and damp shirt.

...

And now the Carmichael lay bizarrely on her side, tackles fastened to the mastheads, and relieving tackles strung under the keel and tied to solid moorings on the exposed side, fully half of her hundred-and-ten-foot length out of the water and supported by the sloping white-sand shore of a conveniently deep inlet a hundred yards south of the main cluster of tents; and Chandagnac was plodding up the beach in the company of the pirates, reeling from exhaustion as much as from the novelty of having a motionless surface underfoot, for the pirates had cheerfully assumed that as a new member of the crew he ought to do the work of two men.

If, as we are taught in high school, each paragraph needs a topic sentence, Mr. Powers should employ topic phrases for his sentences.

I thought the back half of the novel picked up considerably, mostly as the period shortage abated and Mr. Powers was able to employ sentences of more conventional length to match the faster pace.

I noticed that too. First page was like whoa, that's one sentence only.

This is my thirdfourth Powers novel and I liked Anubis Gates and The Stress of Her Regard. Just 5% and we have a character somehow connected to a famous author. I hope we'll meet him in person.

Anyway, aside from Powers factor the reason I am curious about this book is that it was the material for one of the Pirates movies. And of course the sea fantasy factor. Hopefully, the famous pirates making appearances here do not disappoint.

So I'll start off by saying that I'm not really a pirate fan, nor am I ghost/voodoo tale fan, so that said, I'm not exactly loving this book, though not hating it either. I still have a hundred pages or so to go but I'm sort of pushing myself a bit to get through it. It's not boring, its just not entirely my thing...but then I joined this group to try out new stuff.

Anyone else thinks that (view spoiler)[ Shandy was an idiot for shooting that navy captain when he had a chance to get himself out of the whole mess? I mean I get the was opposed to the ethical issue of execution without trial, but since it was a given that Davies would be found guilty at trial and hung anyway it really felt like some handwaving by the author to have an excuse to keep Shandy living the pirate life. Thus to me, everything afterwards just felt a bit contrived because of that, like everything that followed only happened because the author stepped in and forced the issue...if you know what I mean, as opposed to the characters making their own decisions? (hide spoiler)]

As I was reading I was actually thinking of G33z3r and his dislike of horror, what with all the ghosts, resurrected corpses, voodoo, dog-head compasses (ick) and other creepy bits.

I loved The Pirates of Penzance as well as HMS Penafore

I still have the last few chapters to finish, but this is definitely not my favorite powers (that'd probably be either Last Call or Drawing of the Dark).

I was happy when Jack got his nick-name; I wasn't looking forward to trying to mentally pronounce "Chandagnac" every time the character appeared. I think my favorite parts were the scenes in New Providence, just hanging out with the colorful characters and cooking bouillabaisse. I also though the opening capture and the events onboard the Whitney were pretty exciting scenes.

I couldn't help picturing some of the sets, costumes, etc. from the Pirates of the Carribean movies, even though though the movies that established those looks were not necessarily based on this book.

I guess another reason I read this book is that I've been wanting to read his Anubis Gates for a while now so I thought I'd give him a try as an author. I haven't even heard of the other ones everyone is mentioning as their favorites. I also have Hide Me Among the Graves but I'm not setting a high expectation on that one, just caught my curiosity.

Though I claimed not to have read much Pirate literature, I found a GR list and there's Peter Pan, Kidnapped, Princess Bride (ok, only seen the movie but have the book), Treasure Island, Stardust (again movie but have the book), Blackbeard's Ghost (weirdly, the book and not the Disney movie), Captain Grey, and The True Confessions of Charlotte Doyle. I think it's having read Blackbeard's Ghost that made me like Blackbeard the best out of all the characters in Stranger Tides.

Andrea wrote: "I guess another reason I read this book is that I've been wanting to read his Anubis Gates for a while now so I thought I'd give him a try as an author. I haven't even heard of the other ones everyones favorites..."

We had a group discussion of Anubis Gate so long ago I'd almost forgotten the discussion. I thought The Anubis Gates was pretty fun read, involving time travelers from "today" (1985 when the book was written) and a bunch of Egyptian Cultists in Victorian London. LonCon 3 (WorldCon) had a live stage play adaptation of Anubis Gate performed by some fans. Also, poet William Ashbless made my Top Ten Most Imaginative Books of all Time one fine April morning.

Andrea wrote: "Anyone else thinks that [spoiler redacted]..."

Yeah, that was so strange after I read the paragraph I backed up and read it again in one of those "I must have misunderstood something" moment. If you think about it, it's not even the obvious, reflexive reaction to the situation (view spoiler)[which would be to push Davies out of the way, or grab the Captain's arm. Stealing someone else's pistol and shooting the Captain isn't in my top 10 reactions, not to mention a little slow to execute in the situation. (hide spoiler)]

Andrea wrote: "I guess another reason I read this book is that I've been wanting to read his Anubis Gates for a while now so I thought I'd give him a try as an author. I haven't even heard of the other ones every..."

I totally forgot Anubis Gates was his *smacks head* so OST is my fourth Powers book. Before you read Hide Me Among the Graves, you should read The Stress of Her Regards first. Stress is more enjoyable and scary.

G33z3r wrote: "Andrea wrote: "Anyone else thinks that [spoiler redacted]..."

Yeah, that was so strange after I read the paragraph I backed up and read it again in one of those "I must have misunderstood somethin..."
I definitely had some doubts, but I think we're supposed to believe that, even if he didn't admit it to himself, (view spoiler)[ Shandy was already a pirate at heart.

I could buy that. (hide spoiler)] I remember when I read Declare that in an author's note, Powers talked about working to fit the supernatural story in without changing any of the details of known history. I wonder if there are pleasures I'm not fully appreciating in how the novel is giving us s hidden history of real events ... I have only the vaguest knowledge that, yes, historical Blackbeard was known to have visited those places ... I'm assuming Gov. Rogers & his pardon offer are factual, but I don't really know.

Hillary wrote: "I'm assuming Gov. Rogers & his pardon offer are factual, but I don't really know. ..."

"Woodes Rogers (ca. 1679 � 15 July 1732) was an English sea captain and privateer and, later, the first Royal Governor of the Bahamas....
Rogers was twice appointed Governor of the Bahamas, where he succeeded in warding off threats from the Spanish, and in ridding the colony of pirates....
On 5 January 1718, a proclamation was issued announcing clemency for all piratical offences, provided that those seeking what became known as the "King's Pardon" surrendered not later than 5 September 1718." �

Also for what it's worth, I was impressed with the accuracy of Powers' sailing descriptions.

Hillary wrote: "I have only the vaguest knowledge that, yes, historical Blackbeard was known to have visited those places ... I'm assuming Gov. Rogers & his pardon offer are factual, but I don't really know. "

I was also wondering how historically accurate it was, like which characters actually existed, it's definitely more fun when you are familiar with the actual details and can appreciate how well an author weaves his own alternate history into the real one. Though I had always thought Blackbeard's real name was Teach not Thatch.

I thought the sailing descriptions were good too, but again, being ignorant of sailing in general, some of the scenes where stuff starts breaking and flying around I couldn't quite picture but I took Powers' word for it can all happen that way :) But that's always the same with fight scenes for me, I have trouble picturing it. Only Django Wexler in The Thousand Names succeeded in describing a battle that I could imagine properly.

Finished! It became a quick and engrossing read despite the long sentences.

I loved this one, it was quick paced, full with actions and despite some parts on Beth (poor girl) I did not particularly enjoy, the pirate-y stuff were pretty spot on - I like that about Powers and his historical fantasy. The naval battles were fantastic, I am glad I read some Aubrey Maturin novels so they were pretty comprehensible for me.

Also, being set at the end of the Golden Era of Piracy, definitely suits me. If you guys are into this kind of stuff, I recommend to read The Republic of Pirates: Being the True and Surprising Story of the Caribbean Pirates and the Man Who Brought Them Down And yes it has lots of Vane, Benjamin Hornigold, and Henry Avery - all legendary pirates PLUS the tragic tale of Woodes Rogers, the man who presided over the Bahamas as governor at that time and saw the pirate reign dwindled.

I hope the others enjoy this book as much as I did!

PS: The only thing similar with the movie was it has both Blackbeard and Fountain of Youth - which were totally different in nature in both.

Andrea wrote: "spoiler"

(view spoiler)[well it was rather shocking for me too but I guess it was one of kneejerk reactions people could have when in that kind of situation. and he was already getting closer to Davies (hide spoiler)]

If there's something I have to suspend my disbelief it would be (view spoiler)[Jack being a captain, a magician, and so on in six month (hide spoiler)]

The magic parts, by the way, how awesome were those! If you guys happen to watch Black Sails at Starz just a few years back, you'll notice the similar influence from voodoo and local cultures. (and it has long subplot about Rogers' pardon too)
Here in OST it's more pronounced and I actually wished for more elaboration of the loas and all those crazy things in the Fountain.

Silvana wrote: "PS: The only thing similar with the movie was it has both Blackbeard and Fountain of Youth - which were totally different in nature in both..."

Netflix just sent me the movie; we were planning to watch it sometime this weekend. Doesn't seem to be streaming anywhere. (I thought I'd already watched it, but couldn't remember.)

G33z3r wrote: "Silvana wrote: "PS: The only thing similar with the movie was it has both Blackbeard and Fountain of Youth - which were totally different in nature in both..."

Netflix just sent me the movie; we w..."


I thought I saw all the Pirate movies except the last one, but reading the blurb for On Stranger Tides I guess I missed that one too. Trying to picture Jack Sparrow in the place of Jack Shandy LOL

It was a totally different plot with mermaids and Jack Sparrow being goofy (but Depp has lost his charm at that time - I mean, fourth movie).
Also, Ian McShane's Blackbeard can't defeat Ray Stevenson's.

Silvana wrote: "It was a totally different plot with mermaids and Jack Sparrow being goofy (but Depp has lost his charm at that time - I mean, fourth movie).
Also, Ian McShane's Blackbeard can't defeat Ray Steven..."

Oh, it was the mermaid one? Then I saw it after all :)

There are occasional snippets of humor to the novel. Occasionally it's a quip by the otherwise dead serious pirates, e.g., "This stuff would chase wooden figureheads off the bows of ships." Other times it's a dry humor of a situation. Both seem at odds with the overall serious tone of the plot & characters, and the relentlessly ugly setting. (I give Powers credit for creating that feeling general feeling of "ich, a swamp.")

Silvana wrote: "It was a totally different plot with mermaids and Jack Sparrow being goofy (but Depp has lost his charm at that time - I mean, fourth movie)...."

Yeah, only similarities were: pirates, fountain of youth, and the fact that the fountain requires a human sacrifice. I noticed the credits say, "Suggested by the novel by Tim Powers".

It was really refreshing, the humour part.

"Far too many men, nearly no provisions, the rigging all held together with nipper twine, the navigator a one-armed lunatic taking directions from a severed head in a box."

Also I like some very quotable parts:
"There's some unlikely beasts in the world, and it's best to stay near the ones that you've bought drinks for."

G33z3r wrote: "Silvana wrote: "It was a totally different plot with mermaids and Jack Sparrow being goofy (but Depp has lost his charm at that time - I mean, fourth movie)...."

Yeah, only similarities were: pira..."

"Suggested"? Now that's new.

Oops, so I've been a bit slack. I promise I will open it shortly. I'm a bit concerned that I'm going to end up siding with G33z3r, but I'm taking hope from Silvana, and the possibility of humour.

Interview with Powers on this book and his writing process

Silvana wrote: "Interview with Powers on this book and his writing process
"

I find it interesting that he wants to root his books so clearly in reality to give it plausibility, so that the suspension of disbelief is easier - generally suspension of disbelief when reading fantasy isn't something that I have trouble with! Perhaps it's aimed at people who aren't usually reader of fantasy.

I'm about 20% of the way through, and I'm enjoying it so far, but because I know it's the inspiration for the Pirates of the Caribbean now all I want to do is watch the movies.

It did occurred to me though, I haven't read much pirate-based fantasy. I think the last pirate book I read may have been Treasure Island (and my memories of that book is corrupted by the fact that my favourite movie version is the Muppet version). Are there other pirate fantasy novels out there?

Cat wrote: "Silvana wrote: "and my memories of that book is corrupted by the fact that my favourite movie version is the Muppet version"

I have the same problem with A Christmas Carol...

Let's see... Robin Hobb's Liveship series has a pirate POV character. China Mieville's The Scar is about pirates (Planning to read it in July I think). Book 2 of Gentleman Bastards (Red Seas under Red Sky) is also about pirates and high sea adventure.

So I am in the middle of a Q&A with Daniel Abraham in another group, discussing about his villains and he said:
"I remember hearing Tim Powers speak years ago and talk about how he wanted his villains not just destroyed but humiliated. I realized I didn't want my villains destroyed but understood and forgiven."

Did you feel the villain in this novel was humiliated? I did not really remember that part.

Silvana wrote: "So I am in the middle of a Q&A with Daniel Abraham in another group, discussing about his villains and he said:
"I remember hearing Tim Powers speak years ago and talk about how he wanted his villa..."


I'm not sure they all had humiliating ends, but Friend definitely got humiliated along the way (especially that scene where he was forcing himself on the girl and imagines her as his mother and then the girl throws up on him). Jack's uncle had a humiliating end (view spoiler)[(he got tricked into losing everything he stole from his brother) (hide spoiler)]. Blackbeard is a great magic user (view spoiler)[ by the end more or less the most powerful one out there, only to lose in to a guy who only learned about magic a few months ago, which is kind of humiliating I guess (hide spoiler)]

I am about halfway through the audiobook. I am a fan of seafaring stories so I really liked the first part, but once it becomes supernatural, I am finding it boring. The rules of this world aren't clear so he can just throw in any old thing, which seems too easy. I'm don't care for horror as a genre, so I just can't take seriously skeletons and ghosts. If he had just a little weirdness against the historical backdrop, I think that would be more effective.

I thought the fantasy parts outweighed the horror one - I always got confused which one is which. Supernatural = horror?

Also, does it depend on the scare factor? because it differs with each reader and I did not find this scary at all. Different with his The Stress of Her Regards book, now THAT is legit scary. For me.

I'm about halfway through at this point and I'm actually finding the 'realism' irritating - contrary to his position in the article, I do not find it's helping me suspend my disbelief by referring to contemporary events in the novel. I'm finding it a hindrance. I don't think the rules are particularly clear either.

I'm not finding it's particularly horror either but for different reasons (view spoiler)[ the middle section with the skeletons, ghosts and horrid maze, (hide spoiler)] well that kind of thing can happen in fantasy books too. Necromancy and evil magic users are kind of a staple. This one perhaps has more of a focus on them than most. But it is balanced by the 'good' characters... pity those characters are so dull.

I think a lot of people do consider the two almost synonyms and perhaps because this *IS* based in our real-world the magical elements are categorised as supernatural so therefore horror. But I think if this was set on a magical world with made up characters, then the magic would be more fantasy, perhaps of the darker sort. That said, I honestly find grimdark fantasy more horrifying than this. I would much MUCH prefer to be reading this than grimdark fantasy. So that's essentially why I am not classing it as horror.

Cat wrote: "I don't think the rules are particularly clear either...."

With regard to magic, there don't seem to be any rules. Magic does whatever.

G33z3r wrote: "Cat wrote: "I don't think the rules are particularly clear either...."

With regard to magic, there don't seem to be any rules. Magic does whatever."

Brandon Sanderson might disagree.

Cat wrote: "But it is balanced by the 'good' characters... pity those characters are so dull. ..."

This.

Silvana wrote: "Brandon Sanderson might disagree"

I read some article online (Tor?) where he argued you take the magic out of magic (i.e. it becomes science) if you define rules. I disagreed with that article because without rules then a wizard can do anything at any time and thus is effectively a god and there's no interest/suspense in the story since you know he'll fix any problem he gets just by waving his hands. Maybe Sanderson is a bit much (haven't read his books yet so don't know) but in general there have to be some limits to make the world convincing.

Here I felt Powers mostly stuck to voodoo-like magic, using chickens and blood and focused on necromancy/spirits, so at least it felt like it fit into the Caribbean pirate theme. But there were moments when people could fly or shoot fireballs that didn't feel very voodoo-esque (not that I'm an expert on that, all I really know is the stereotype)

Andrea wrote: I read some article online (Tor?) where he argued you take the magic out of magic (i.e. it becomes science) if you define rules. I disagreed with ..."

Silvana wrote: "Brandon Sanderson might disagree..."


Absolutely Brandon Sanderson disagrees - he bases whole worlds around the idea that the magic must have logic. It can do amazing things, but to maintain the internally logic of the book, the magic must have rules. It is also vital for plot/interest/suspense as Andrea said.

In this book however, magic definitely does whatever. Literally I just read that one of the characters gets annoyed with others and tries to fly out over the sea. That makes no sense. He has never been able to fly. He didn't do anything to make himself be able to fly. He just started levitating. Whaaaaat?

I am finding it more frustrating the more I read. Some of the voodoo stuff is cool but then random extras get thrown in.

Also, going back and reading earlier comments:
Andrea wrote: Anyone else thinks that [spoiler redacted]..."

Yes, omgosh, yes. That scene made literally no sense.

Tough crowd :)
I breezed through the book (and all other books with magic) without thinking about it. Except for Mistborn and Powder Mage series, since the magic is explained quite thoroughly, and only then I think and scrutinize the magical actions.

I hope I'm not being too harsh! It probably wasn't great that I read the Mistborn series right before I read this - because they are just so different, that it really makes the contrasts obvious. And I do love Mistborn...

Anyway, regarding this book. I am certainly enjoying elements of it - particularly the fact that it is pirates. I think I am going to look into the non-fiction book you recommended Silvana! I'm reading this book wishing there was more pirate-y fantasy books. It's not a subgenre that's really done a lot. I know there are a few mentioned above, but still not many. I don't find the language as off-putting as some of the other readers, it's alright, certainly not the worst I've read. And there are some good lines! I suspect this book is going to end up in my average-good category, but I should wait to finish it before ranking it!

No worries at all. Indeed there are not many of them. I did a quick Google search and found this list which looks more interesting than the Barnes and Noble one...


For nonfiction, I have been waiting for this book to go on sale:
Under the Black Flag by David Cordingly.

There was a documentary this weekend about what happened to the pirate city of Port Royal. Apparently it got hit by an earthquake, which caused all the buildings to sink straight down into the sand, then they got hit by a couple tsunami. I must admit it seemed like the "hand of God" wiping out an evil city when I don't normally think of natural events in that way :)

I ended up quitting about 2/3 of the way through. The characters I thought were the main ones were all gone. I didn't care about Blackbeard as a character.

Robin wrote: "I ended up quitting about 2/3 of the way through. The characters I thought were the main ones were all gone. I didn't care about Blackbeard as a character."

Shandy makes a comeback for the finale, it you're interested in an excuse to pick it up again.

I figured he would. That's a drawback of audio, it's harder to skip ahead.

Robin wrote: "I figured he would. That's a drawback of audio, it's harder to skip ahead."

On the other hand, you probably know how to pronounce Chandagnac (though perhaps not how to spell it. :) I eventually figured out that's where "Shandy" came from. :)