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Hello Everyone,

For the week of April 16th � April 22nd, we are reading chapters 13 and 14 of Caesar: Life of a Colossus by Adrian Goldsworthy.

The eighth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK EIGHT - April 16th � April 22nd -> 13. ‘Over the Waters�: The British and German Expeditions, 55-54 BC and 14. Rebellion, Disaster and Vengeance (269 - 314)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off February 26th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~Vicki

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Adrian Goldsworthy

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.

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Also, the citation thread: (for Unreasonable Men - look at examples)

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Introduction Thread

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Table of Contents and Syllabus

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Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Here is the link:

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Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations or other books either non fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self promotion, please.

Here is the link:

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Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - Spoiler Thread

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Link:

by Adrian Goldsworthy

Everyone, for the week of April 16th � April 22nd, we are reading Chapters 13 and 14.

The eighth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK EIGHT - April 16th � April 22nd -> 13. ‘Over the Waters�: The British and German Expeditions, 55-54 BC and 14. Rebellion, Disaster and Vengeance (269 - 314)

Chapter Overview and Summary:

Chapter 13. ‘Over the Waters�: The British and German Expeditions, 55-54 BC


Caesar and the Britons

This chapter covers Caesar’s two expeditions to Britain and his foray into Germany.

Chapter 14. Rebellion, Disaster and Vengeance


Crassus in Parthia

This chapter covers two events which weakened the triumvirate � the death of Caesar’s daughter Julia, Pompey’s wife; and Crassus� defeat and death in Parthia. Also details about setbacks in Gaul.

Caesar leading the army

Discussion Topics for Chapter XIII:

1. How much did the Romans know about the upper reaches of Gaul and of Germany? Did they learn about the area and the tribes there from traders and merchants?

2. It seems amazing that Caesar’s legions could have built 600 ships in the period before the second “invasion� of Britain. Were there local shipbuilders or was it done by legionaries?

Discussion Topics for Chapter XIV:

1. What might have happened if Julia hadn’t died and if Crassus never went to Parthia? Probably something else would have broken up the Triumvirate.

2. How did the legions deal with the hundreds of hostages Caesar got from the various tribes? It seems like it would have been a strain on manpower and resources to bring them along with the army.

Just looking at the map of Gaul by itself makes it seem pretty vast and difficult, but when you see it as part of Europe, it's not that much bigger than Italy, and the legions never had much trouble going up and down the peninsula. Of course, going into the unknown is always daunting.

Vicki wrote: "2. It seems amazing that Caesar’s legions could have built 600 ships in the period before the second “invasion� of Britain. Were there local shipbuilders or was it done by legionaries?.."

The Roman skill for organizing is beyond impressive. This is certainly a very large fleet and naval expedition by ancient standards. I have read that they used a lot of standard, interchangeable parts. Local shipbuilders could then build the ships according to their specs. No doubt the fleet was augmented with locally confiscated ships.

Certainly, by the time of Caesar they had a lot of shipbuilding experience. They 'owned' the Mediterranean (Mare Nostrum), had trashed the pirates. They pulled off an even bigger stunt when they defeated the Carthaginian fleet during the Punic war as a new naval power. But in Caesar's case, he did not have the full resources of the Empire behind him.

On the other hand, the ships did not perform so well in storms so perhaps the hasty construction had its downside too.

A good, seaworthy ship takes time to build. Rushing the building of ships means sloppy work and that will lead to problems.

Sad that Julia died in childbirth. The was common back then, but it did loosen up the ties between Caesar and Pompey.

600 ships is just amazing. Imagine all the supplies needed for them. And how long did it take to build one, using how many men? I guess when they were done with one, they just anchored it somewhere nearby. Must have been an impressive sight.

Another major event covered in this section is the battle of Carrhae. The defeat had a lasting effect on the Romans and stopped their eastward expansion. It was one of the most serious military setbacks in Roman history. Even more remarkable was that the Parthians almost wiped out a large Roman army while being outnumbered and suffering very few casualties themselves. Contrast that with Caesar's easy victories against the Gauls!

What went wrong? Was it only due to Crassus' bad generalship - this seems to be the preferred explanation by Roman historians and the author and this makes Caesar's victories even more remarkable. But Crassus was no idiot. Also, his troops were disciplined and fought well. How did a setback turn into a disaster?

Good question about Carrhae, Boris. Crassus was pretty old by this time. Maybe he just didn't have the needed mental focus or had too high an opinion of his ability. It's too bad he felt the need to show he was the equal of Caesar and Pompey.

Ambiorix is still a hero in my country, Belgium. The brave tribal leader that resisted the Roman war machine and one of the few that inflicted a defeat on the greatest general of all time. To this day, we still have to learn French and Latin in school, so we sometimes regret that there were not more like him :-)

I tried to insert a picture of his statue in Tongeren below.



Of course, this is Belgium so we also have a tasty Ambiorix beer, complete with a pseudo historic Gallic winged helmet logo.

That picture looks a lot like Vercingetorix, it's probably the mustache. Nice six-pack also.

I really like the part about the legions building a bridge across the Rhine (in only 10 days!), venturing into Germany, going back to Gaul and then tearing down the bridge. A decisive demonstration of what the Romans were all about. There are links to a couple of videos about this in the Glossary.

Sorry I kept silent last week. It was such wonderful (summerly) weather over here, I had to enjoy it!

It is indeed amazing how well developed the engineering already was. You can still see amazing structures all across former Roman Europe. Until last year I lived in Utrecht (De Meern) in an area Romans had built a castellum. Ships and watchtowers were found within a kilometer of our former house. It was at the Limes, the northern border of Roman territory. It is funny to know that Roman soldiers and merchants were walking, living and sailing (yes, sailing, on the former river run) on the same grounds I lived for over ten years.

As for Caesar, I think the only reason he made the expedition to Britain is that it was a big opportunity for more glory: he would be the first to march in this unknown territories with an army.