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Discussion is open for the October group read - The Immortalists. Heather is your discussion leader!

Please use spoiler tags if you are sharing any plot related surprises.

Posts should be exclusively about this book.

When you've finished, be sure to post in the "November Challenge: I finished!" thread.

Hello! I’m Heather, your discussion leader for this month. I’m so happy to be leading this discussion about The Immortalists. It was one of my favorite reads this year.

Here is the discussion schedule for this month:
Week 1 (November 1st-8th) - Prologue & Part I (Simon)
Week 2 (November 9th-15th) - Part II (Klara) & Part III (Daniel)
Week 3 (November 16th-22nd) - Part IV (Varya)
Week 4 (November 23rd-30th) - Final Thoughts

This month we will be discussing LGBT experiences, HIV/AIDS, and mental health issues. We may also discuss animal rights/cruelty and infertility depending on where the discussion leads. The characters we are talking about are fictional, but real people live these experiences every day. These themes should be discussed with respect and sensitivity.

And now, onto the discussion!

Here are the discussion questions for Week 1 where we’re discussing the Prologue and Part I (Simon).

1. Introduce yourself. Why did you decide to join the group discussion? How much of the book have you read?

2. Do you believe the fortune teller truly knows the date of the Gold siblings' deaths? Or do you believe she's a fraud?

3. Do you think Simon is a passive or motivated person? Why do you think this?

4. (view spoiler)[At the end of his life, Simon says he is at peace with his short life because at least he had Robert. Was a short life worth it for all Simon got to experience? (hide spoiler)]

5. What else is on your mind about this part of the book? Any thoughts you want to share? Questions you want to ask the group?

1. Introduce yourself. Why did you decide to join the group discussion? How much of the book have you read?
See above for an introduction. :) I asked to lead the group discussion as soon as I finished reading the book back in July. I have so many thoughts and questions about the characters, the dates of their deaths, and what it all means.

2. Do you believe the fortune teller truly knows the date of the Gold siblings' deaths? Or do you believe she's a fraud?
My inclination is skepticism. But I don't suppose a fortune that doesn't come true would make for a very good book.

3. Do you think Simon is a passive or motivated person? Why do you think this?
Simon is wonderfully complex. He leaves home for San Francisco because it's the only place he thinks he'll find acceptance and a community. But once he's there, almost everything happens to him. (view spoiler)[His story is so tragic to me because he doesn't have time to work through all the fear and shame he feels. I could see so much potential in Simon, but he died so young. (hide spoiler)]

4. (view spoiler)[At the end of his life, Simon says he is at peace with his short life because at least he had Robert. Was a short life worth it for all Simon got to experience? (hide spoiler)]
No, I don't think so. (view spoiler)[We find out later in the book that Robert has HIV/AIDS, which he contracted from Simon. Personally, I don't believe any experience is worth it if it irreparably hurts someone else. But I am happy that Simon found peace. (hide spoiler)]

5. What else is on your mind about this part of the book? Any thoughts you want to share? Questions you want to ask the group?
I almost never cry when I'm reading books, but this one had me tearing up.

1. I’m Savana, and I chose to participate because I wanted to talk about the book but I don’t know anyone who has read it. I finished the book a couple months ago.

2. I think she was a fraud, to me it’s a self fulfilling prophesy. I think they were reckless because they knew, and if they hadn’t known they never would have been in those situations. Of course, you could say she did know, and them wanting to know the date changed the date they would have died. That would make her not a fraud, but still a self fulfilling prophecy.

3. I think Simon is a pretty passive person. He seems to just follow wherever life leads him. I’m not sure he ever would have left if not for his sister pushing him to leave with her.

4. No idea what the question is

5. As soon as I realized the time period a gay Simon moved to San Francisco I knew what would happen. I hated reading about his reckless behavior when I knew what the consequences would be!

Ack! This is the danger of having a question that is a spoiler. The tags don't show up on mobile, do they? I wish Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ would fix that.

The question was about Robert and whether love makes everything bad worthwhile. Not that I'm expecting you to answer such a vague question! But I would be itching with curiosity if I couldn't see behind the spoiler tag. :)

I'll have new questions up soon! I'll try to use spoiler tags sparingly.

Here are the discussion questions for Week 2 where we’re discussing Part II (Klara) and Part III (Daniel).

1. Klara and Daniel are presented as contrasts to each other. In what ways are they different. Are there similarities between them as well?

2. Klara names her act The Immortalist. What does this say about the way she views herself?

3. (view spoiler)[Daniel never believes the fortune teller, but dies on the date she predicted nonetheless. (hide spoiler)] Do you think this is proof that fate is real or is this a self-fulfilling prophecy?

4. What else is on your mind about this part of the book? Any thoughts you want to share? Questions you want to ask the group?

I'd better answer my own questions before I fall down the rabbit hole of looking at the 2019 challenge prompts and forget!

1. Klara and Daniel are presented as contrasts to each other. In what ways are they different. Are there similarities between them as well?
Klara and Daniel are presented as very Type A/Type B personality styles. Klara is free-spirited and goes wherever the wind (or, as she would say, fate) takes her. Daniel is very buttoned-up and does what's expected of him. But they're both unstable in different ways. Klara probably does have a mental illness that causes hallucinations, but I think Daniel has some neuroses himself because of his experience with the fortune teller.

2. Klara names her act The Immortalist. What does this say about the way she views herself?
She's a fantastic magician who can perform what I would consider death-defying illusions. Mostly, though, I think she names her act this because she believes she can communicate with the dead. They are, to her, immortal.

3. (view spoiler) Do you think this is proof that fate is real or is this a self-fulfilling prophecy?
In this case, I would say definitely a self-fulfilling prophecy. I remember reading the end of this part with my jaw hanging open. Simon was reckless, and Klara was mentally ill. Those parts were so sad to read about. But this was a whole new level of terrifying. (I would say stupid, but again, I think Daniel had some tightly-controlled-until-they-weren't mental health problems.)

4. What else is on your mind about this part of the book? Any thoughts you want to share? Questions you want to ask the group?
The second half of the book is much different than the first. I've finished the book, so I know how it ends, but while I was reading it, I remember having this terrible, sinking feeling that Part IV (Varya) was going to be crazy new levels of disturbing. (view spoiler)[And I was right. (hide spoiler)]

Week 1

1. Introduce yourself. Why did you decide to join the group discussion? How much of the book have you read?
I'm Teri. I love doing these monthly discussions when they are a book that I want to read. I love seeing what other people think about something I'm reading. Other people tend to point out aspects of a book that I didn't focus on, and it enhances the reading experience. I've only read the Week 1 reading so far and am determined to stretch it out instead of reading it too fast. We'll see if that holds.

2. Do you believe the fortune teller truly knows the date of the Gold siblings' deaths? Or do you believe she's a fraud?
I don't necessarily believe in the supernatural and fortune tellers, but I also recognize that there is so much about the world and the universe that we do not understand. It seems possible that there are people who can access a different wavelength than the rest of us. That being said, I cannot imagine I would ever want to visit a fortune teller.

3. Do you think Simon is a passive or motivated person? Why do you think this?
Since he is the youngest child, he likely has a follower personality anyway. Add in the struggles for self-awareness and acceptance that he is dealing with at that time, and I think he was doing the best he could. He was so young when he moved to San Francisco.

4. (view spoiler)[ At the end of his life, Simon says he is at peace with his short life because at least he had Robert. Was a short life worth it for all Simon got to experience? (hide spoiler)]
One of the greatest experiences in life is the search for and finding love. In that regard, Simon lived the life he wanted. (view spoiler)[If he really believed the prophecy, he probably felt he got as much as he possibly could in his short life. He got to live in a world where he was accepted and where he found love. Hopefully we all get to experience that. (hide spoiler)]

5. What else is on your mind about this part of the book? Any thoughts you want to share? Questions you want to ask the group?
I found myself thinking a lot about whether I would want to know the date of my death in advance. It will be interesting to see how the other stories play out, but at this point I believe I would like to know. I have an incurable illness that is likely going to shorten my life significantly, and it is difficult to plan for the future as I don't know how long that will be (i.e., do I put money into a retirement fund since I likely won't use it, or do I spend the money now trying to enjoy the time I have left). Anyway, it is a fascinating topic.

Week 2

1. Klara and Daniel are presented as contrasts to each other. In what ways are they different. Are there similarities between them as well?
They are different because Klara has a much more free-wheeling personality and does not want to conform to the idea of a normal life. Daniel follows the rules and has a conventional life. But both of them have some personality disorders that especially come through at the time of their deaths.

2. Klara names her act The Immortalist. What does this say about the way she views herself?
I don't believe she used the name because she believed she would never die. I think she always believed what the fortune teller told her. I suppose she used the name because of her death-defying Jaws of Life stunt, and because it just sounds cool for a magician. The ending of her storyline breaks my heart.

3. (view spoiler)[[Daniel never believes the fortune teller, but dies on the date she predicted nonetheless. (hide spoiler)] Do you think this is proof that fate is real or is this a self-fulfilling prophecy?
In some ways, I believe it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. The events that occurred would not have occurred had Daniel not been focused on the fortune teller that particular day. I'm not a religious person, so I don't believe in "fate" or "predestination" per se.

4. What else is on your mind about this part of the book? Any thoughts you want to share? Questions you want to ask the group?
This book is blowing my mind, and I love it. Can't wait to read the last part, but I wouldn't let myself until I had answered these questions. I've mentioned the concept of this book to a couple of people, asking them if they would want to know the date of their death, and apparently no one seems to find that question as fascinating as I do.

Week 1

1. Introduce yourself. Why did you decide to join the group discussion? How much of the book have you read?
Read this for a campus book club earlier this year--about 6 months ago. It prompted excellent discussion!

2. Do you believe the fortune teller truly knows the date of the Gold siblings' deaths? Or do you believe she's a fraud?
I do believe there are those among us with the abilities the majority of humans lack. Some are able to "see" or perceive where most of us cannot. I had no reason to disbelieve her predictions.

3. Do you think Simon is a passive or motivated person? Why do you think this?
As with most of us I believe he is a mixture. Though without encouragement from his sister I do not believe he would have ever left; I fear he would have stayed and been miserable the rest of his life, however long that would be...

4. [At the end of his life, Simon says he is at peace with his short life because at least he had Robert. Was a short life worth it for all Simon got to experience? (hide spoiler)]
Robert appeared to be Simon's "true love" and without that experience I don't believe he would have had much to remember about his life that was pleasant or enjoyable.

5. What else is on your mind about this part of the book? Any thoughts you want to share? Questions you want to ask the group?
I just keep wondering and going back and forth between this idea of fate versus free will. I personally do not believe in fate or predestination at all, but I could interpret events in both ways at different times.

Here are the discussion questions for Week 3 where we’re discussing Part IV (Varya).

1. Varya and Simon’s lives are bookends to this story. How are they different from each other? How are they similar?

2. Who is Frida? What does she represent?

3. Do you think Varya found peace at the end of the book?

4. What else is on your mind about this part of the book? Any thoughts you want to share? Questions you want to ask the group?

1. Varya and Simon’s lives are bookends to this story. How are they different from each other? How are they similar?
I think the most obvious difference is that Simon is reckless and Varya is cautious. I think they're a little more similar than they appear on the surface. Simon has moments of caution (leaving New York only with Klara's encouragement) and Varya has moments of recklessness (view spoiler)[(with her son and Frida) (hide spoiler)] that are driven by fear, shame, and poor mental health.

2. Who is Frida? What does she represent?
Frida is one of monkeys in Varya's lab. I think she could represent two things - a child or an inner child. I'm leaning towards her representing Varya's inner child. Frida's psychological reaction to being caged is like Varya's emotional reaction to knowing the date of her death (view spoiler)[and being helpless while each of her siblings die. (hide spoiler)]

3. Do you think Varya found peace at the end of the book?
I'm not sure there is such a thing as "peace" for someone with OCD/mental illness. But I think there is such a thing as contentment and balance. I think Varya has found that place.

4. What else is on your mind about this part of the book? Any thoughts you want to share? Questions you want to ask the group?
I had a few moments during this part of the book when I didn't know if I could keep reading. I'm sensitive to animal cruelty, and I find this experiment on the monkeys unconscionable. Poor Frida.

Week 3

1. Varya and Simon’s lives are bookends to this story. How are they different from each other? How are they similar?
They are different because of the level of risk they are willing to take. Simon was more carefree and sometimes careless. Varya was very careful and adverse to making too many changes in her life. As far as being similar, they (along with their siblings) had mental health issues which in no small part related to what the fortune teller said.

2. Who is Frida? What does she represent?
Frida, a laboratory monkey, represented for Varya the parts of her that she had lost - her child, her security, feelings of being loved and needed.

3. Do you think Varya found peace at the end of the book?
She came to terms a bit with her siblings' deaths, and at least had a better understanding of her own issues with OCD. Every gain in life does provide some peace, but I don't believe that anyone achieves complete peace in every aspect of their lives.

4. What else is on your mind about this part of the book? Any thoughts you want to share? Questions you want to ask the group?
This is a book not soon to be forgotten. I have changed my mind about wanting to know when I was going to die. While it would still be convenient for my circumstances, the unforeseen consequences could be too terrible.

Here are the final discussion questions for The Immortalists. Thank you for joining the discussion this month. I loved this book so much, and I'm happy I could share my thoughts and hear yours.

1. So, what did you think of the book? Would you recommend it?
2. Which character did you connect with the most? Why?
3. If you had the chance to learn the date of your death, would you?
4. What do you think the book is saying about the future. Is our future predetermined? Or do our beliefs and knowledge determine our own future?

1. So, what did you think of the book? Would you recommend it?
As I've said many, many times now, I loved the book! ;) I definitely recommend it.

2. Which character did you connect with the most? Why?
I really loved Klara. She's loving and loyal, two traits that I admire most. I think everything she did was out of love for her family.

3. If you had the chance to learn the date of your death, would you?
I know that the right answer is no. But I'm not sure I could push aside my curiosity and not ask the date.

4. What do you think the book is saying about the future. Is our future predetermined? Or do our beliefs and knowledge determine our own future?
I think the book is saying that we make our own choices, but what we know/think we know can change the choices we make. This is especially clear with Daniel, (view spoiler)[who wouldn't have died if he hadn't gone after the fortune-teller (hide spoiler)] but I think Simon and Klara also have an element of making their "futures" come true. Simon did this unknowingly, but Klara (view spoiler)[killed herself on the predicted date of her death (hide spoiler)].

Week 4

1. So, what did you think of the book? Would you recommend it?
I really loved this book. I recommend it a lot and try to discuss what I love about it with people. I may be overselling it or recommending to the wrong people, because I don't think anyone has jumped on it yet.

2. Which character did you connect with the most? Why?
I tend to connect with characters that are somewhat like me, which means that Varya is the one I understand the most. I, like her, have made too many safe choices out of fear. And, like her, I've made changes in my life that have made it more fulfilling after circumstances have altered my thinking.

3. If you had the chance to learn the date of your death, would you?
While this book is a cautionary tale that has made me rethink my original response, I still believe it would be helpful for me to know so that I could better plan for my illness and remaining life. So yes, if someone could tell me, I would go for it.

4. What do you think the book is saying about the future. Is our future predetermined? Or do our beliefs and knowledge determine our own future?
I do not believe that our future is predetermined. I'm not a believer in a supreme being that is controlling our lives, or in karma or fate or any of those types of things. But yes, I do believe that the things we know and that we think we know help to determine our future. While there are exceptions to every rule, I do buy into the "as a man thinkest, so is he" philosophy (I just read As a Man Thinketh by James Allen).